MTFCA Forum

This is by far the hardest drawing I have yet to draw. The problem is that in other Model T's components were pretty much bolt on and them slap on the next assembly. Not so with 26-27 the "Improved Cars", some thing in them are integral to the construction of the car...like the fuel tank. It doesn't sit on the chassis, like all the previous cars tanks did, so there is no sitting on the gas tank and driving it off the line or over to the body shop, no this one has to be mounted inside a body section...the cowl, so you pretty much had to assemble the entire car, just to drive it off the line.
I suppose this was a preparation for the Model A where the cowl IS the fuel tank and I guess it did solve some of the "low" fuel problems with Model T (having not to have to back up a hill when the fuel level was below half). What doesn't make any sense, other than they were probably using up left over firewalls, is that the 26 and 27 Fordor Sedans all have oval under the front seat fuel tanks. The only difference I can see between the 26-27 other models with the cowl tank and the Fordor, is that the firewall is a different shape on the other cars, it has a 3 inch bulge inward towards the engine compartment, to accommodate the cowl fuel tank and the support straps across the top of the tank with the eye holes in them to hook the mounting straps to...otherwise everything else is pretty much the same. And since it is so bloody integral it makes for a really complex looking drawing.

Martynn,
Your work is always appreciated!

I was just thinking the same thing about the gad tank today as I was working on my Fordor. My conclusion is that it was the lowest selling model. They didn't even redesign it from the earlier Fordor, only changed the cowl to fit the 1926-7 hood. I wonder if where the doors are would not allow for the tank? Or is it just that the Fordor had little demand compared to the other models? Or perhaps it is so heavy that people just wouldn't be climbing hills with it:)

Matt

Matt, I have measured the cowl sections between the cowl tank models and the Fordor and their the same width and height as well...the only difference I can see is that the firewall, the top pad holders that run across the top of the tank and have the eye hole in it for the bottom straps that actually mount the tank inside the cowl...otherwise everything looks the same, including the dashboard, it has the same scooped out top part that fits behind the cowl front. But there are no holes in the firewall for those mounting straps to be bolted to, that is one of the chief differences between the firewalls that and that 3 inch bulge in towards to engine compartment. Would be an interesting project to see if it were possible to mount a cowl tank in a Fordor though...there is another difference between the "improved car" sedans and the earlier ones...the front seat sits 2 inches closer to the pedals than on previous models and that I'm assuming was so they could market to women, who were (usually) much shorter than the men folk tended to be. Derrick Pang has a 27 Fordor Sedan and I can't fit in it to drive it comfortably, like I can my 22 touring...because that seat is too bloody close to the pedals.

You are VERY talented ! I have referred to your drawings a few times and they've be most helpful.

I always admire your work Martynn. It's such a valuable resource and done in the spirit this hobby was founded on. You are to be commended for donating and devoting so much time to these illustrations.
You must really enjoy it and that is wonderful.
Thanks
Rich

Martynn

Very well done. Your efforts to make these great drawings is appreciated.

Just one detail to add, the 290PAD , pads for the tank straps are riveted to the strap in two places, so split rivets should be shown to assist.

The cardboard insulator, 2018, isn't fastened with rivets, as the later cowls don't have the pairs of rivet holes in the cowl. That insulator just wedges between the cowl and the cowl gas tank, its molded to fit tightly. On this install a bit of spray adhesive was used to keep it in place anyway.



Later cowl, no pairs of holes for rivets to hold the formerly used fabric strap padding.


Split rivet used for gas tank strap pads, nickel plated head.

Martynn,

Excellent work! I have always admired your ability to work with complex software and generate those drawings. One thing that I can add is that there are two different tanks I have run across. The '26 Improved Car fuel tanks from the Touring and Tudor models are not interchangeable. The slope is slightly different on the passenger side ends. I suspect this may due to differences in the cowls between the models. Found this out when I dropped both tanks for cleaned and sealing. Didn't keep track of which tank went where thinking they were all the same. I attempted to install the Tudor tank into the Touring , but no luck. The outside slope of the tank prevented it from fitting all the way in. So I switched tanks and the original Touring tank fit in there exactly as it came out.

Seems to me we had a Forum discussion on this a couple years ago. I posted pics of both tanks in there. The slight differences are visible. That posting should be archived someplace.

Kevin

Here is your older post with photos of two cowl tanks, with some differences.


http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/70 ... 1489703451

Seems odd, Ford only has one part no. for the Improved Car cowl tank, 2900D and list it for Road.,T.C., Cp. and Tudor.

And to complicate tank removal even more The dashboard to firewall measurement on the closed cars (coupe/tudor) is one inch longer than the open cars. That's why we open car folks dread taking out the tank. Thanks to Dan T taking a measurement last year when I posed the question.

OH !! And good job Mart.

Dan, Thanks! Your memory is a whole lot better than mine. I have no explanation for the differences but only having one part number either. All I can tell you from experience is the tanks aren't interchangeable.

Dan, Hmmm, I guess once that card pad is in there where is it going to go, so it wouldn't need anything to hold it there.

Didn't see those rivet holes in those mounting straps...how many of them are there 2 or 3?

Kevin, I'll try and make some sort of notation and or comparison diagram concerning those differences, thanks.

Ok, made some adjustments, hope this explains things a bit better....if somebody has the measurements for the cowl tanks for both open cars and the closed cars (ie Tudors and Coupes) please let me know and I'll add that information to the notes on the drawing also.

The other thing is I'm using Lang's nickel plated split rivets (4060N), but if any of you know which rivet it actually is let me know and I'll amend my drawing.

Martynn,
Wow always learning something new on the forum. I believe that I have a Tudor tank in my touring. All I can say is that I got it to fit.

I haven’t tried my Fordor body out. I will see if it it too tight.

Here is my solution to dealing with the heavy Fordor body;) Thanks again for all your hard work!!!

Matt

Matt, that looks like a TT chassis and it seems a bit too long too...gonna make a Fordor Sedan Pickup or something? Or a Fordor Stretch Limo? You'll have to change out that flat firewall for the Improved cars bulging one though and place the under the cowl top of the tank pad holders 2920 with their pads to hook the bottom strap brackets too, there are some other problems some minor some will take a little thought as to how to fit it all in there Actually the Fordor body isn't necessarily heavier than other sedan bodies, Steve Jelf bought a 1923 Fordor and the body is completely aluminum...is it lighter, guess so, it was an experiment that Ford tried, and since dropped the complete body made of aluminum and went with certain panels to try and alleviate some of the weight. But unless you've got a speed worm in that rear end, you might as well kept the T's standard chassis.

VowellArt wrote: ↑

Mon Nov 18, 2019 12:55 am

... But unless you've got a speed worm in that rear end, you might as well kept the T's standard chassis.

Martynn, I am not into speed. I care about torque:)

Actually this is my answer to the following scenario: I bought a TT chassis because I have parts to put together a dump truck. Then I bought the Fordor because it was local and the price was right. I had to move out my Touring to have space in the garage. Then I found out Wednesday there is a forecast for rain. So what you see is me stacking up two projects. I am enjoying the post-apocalyptic look of the Fordor TT. Now this gets my imagination going... moving the engine back, making a long hood then add a trunk in the back:) In person it is impressive because it stands so tall.

Matt

Most excellent work as usual. Have an idea for you to consider. Maybe add to all your gas tank drawings a note on making a gas level dipstick with the gallons to inches scale. What do you think? Make the drawing too busy?
Cheers,
Mike

"Didn't see those rivet holes in those mounting straps...how many of them are there 2 or 3?"

Martyn: My rusty, unmolested '26 coupe has two rivets in each strap, and the holes in the straps are about 3/4" from the beginning of the taper on each end of the strap. The original rivets were steel judging from the rust on the heads, I cannot tell if they were plated or if split or tube ends b/c my tank is still in the car. My tank has remains of black paint, the body was Channel Green.

Thanks for your efforts, all the best, jb

Latest revision...

Mike, I can make the art for any gas stick if you've got one you want reproduced...but it will be just the art, you'll have to have a silk screener do the imprinting. Just give me a picture of the sample you want and I can do it for you....Let me know.

Martynn,
I appreciate the offer however I have what I believe is an original one that I understand gas stations handed out as advertisements. I found some posts during a search that provided scales and instructions on using a paint stirring stick. I remember I had a little trouble finding a scan where I could read the numbers then discovered the source document in one of my many reference books as well as a post. With this info, I simply marked a paint stir stick with the appropriate lines using a ball point pen for routine use thereby preserving my old time-period stick.

I'll attach a pic I found online showing what I mean. Might be worthwhile to include in your drawing.

Here is the scale for the late model tank I got from my search:

1 gal 1/4"
2 gal 1 1/4 "
3gal 2 3/16"
4gal 3"
5gal 3 1 3/16"
6gal 4 13/16"
7gal 5 5/8"
8gal 6 7/16"
9gal 7 5/16"
10gal 8 1/2"

Thread drift: Model T gas tank dipsticks are available from Dave's restoration and Machine, LLC in Ashley OH. He was giving them to Model T owners at Hershey. I have no affiliation with his business, although I believe he offers quality parts. davesrestoration.machine(at)gmail(dot)com His dipsticks are made in USA. jb

Martynn, this an incredible work of art. It now gives me x-ray vision and a clear understanding when it comes to my 1927 Tudor gas tank installation.

Many thanks for this outstanding research, effort, and production.

To George N Lake Ozark - Having removed the tank from my '27 open car twice, you are correct; it is a horrible job. We have been down this road before, but in my '27 touring, you will remove the gauge cluster (such as it is) and the steering column or the tank will stay in place. That's not what the bible says, but if anyone here thinks differently, I would be happy to let them try on my '27. Loser buys the winner a Lobster (Maine) dinner.

Thanks John.

I'm trying to decide to finish refurbishing my gas tank for my 1926-27 coupe. Looking at the materials posted to date, it looks like a non-Tudor tank based on the spacing of the gas inlet to the back of the tank. It seems to fit into the cowl, but very tightly to get the straps to mount into the mounting holes on the dash, that's without the rubber pads in place.

Any insights into the proper tank for the coupe would be much appreciated.

I’ll revive this excellent thread (the diagram is fantastic) to ask whether the 2 long skinny firewall pads go on as well as the one big cardboard pad and whether they go against the tank or against the firewall? I reckon if they went on the tank side they would also hold the cardboard pad against it at the same time? Or is this just duplicating the padding and just use one or the other? Frankencar’s firewall has the pad rivet holes…. Thanks folks!

Rob

Your cowl with the rivet holes uses only the two fabric pads against the inside for tank insulation and anti-rattle. Original rivets were nickeled plated head showing on the cowl face.

The one-piece molded fiber board pad was used only on the later year ‘26-‘27 cars, where there are no pairs of rivet holes drilled in the cowl. One of Ford’s production improvements for cost and assembly reduction.

Using both could make install of the tank more difficult.

Thanks Dan! Off to Lang’s!

Sorry if someone has already pointed this out, but the Fordor has a shorter scuttle to provide more interior space. Hence no room for a tank there.