Model TT Rear Brake Question

[Gbharless]

I have a few questions after I pulled the Left rear wheel off my Doodlebug with a Model TT rear. It looks like a grease bomb went off and coated everything. The one pad was balled up in a grease covered wad and the other is pulling up from the shoe. I’m sure the other side looks exactly the same... Since I’m new to all this and don’t know anything about theses rears I’m hoping someone can help steer me in the right direction.

- Any idea what year this rear is? I think I narrowed it down to a 1918-1927 based on the brake spring.
- Is the brake lining kit my only option? https://www.modeltford.com/item/1057-8.aspx
- How do I disconnect and pull the left side of the brake shoes?
- Do I need inner oil seals in addition to outter seals?


Any advice, tips, pointers, criticism is appreciated since I’m a complete newbie and I’m learning as I go.

Thanks.

[Gbharless]

Update. Have everything off and cleaned up. Question about the pads and seals remain.

Thanks!

[HPetrino]

Let's see if we can sort this out.

1. I don't think it's possible to nail down the exact year of a TT rear end. The views shown in your photos would be the same for years 1918-27. If there's a bead on the clam shell at the axle tube opening you could identify it as an early unit, if not a later unit. Also, when you take it apart if it has a pinion shaft and 2 pinion gears it's n early unit and if there is a pinion spider and 4 pinion gears it's a later unit.

2. The brake lining kit is probably the easiest and best option to re-line the shoes. What alternative do you have in mind?

3. Remove the shoes simply by removing the nut from the back of the brake expander and remove the spring. The two shoes should come off as an assembly connected by the expander. Then just remove the two cotter pins and that's it.

4. Each side of that rear end has THREE seals At the outer bearing there's an inside grease seal and outside grease seal. Also, there is an oil seal inside near the differential just outboard of the inner ball bearing. The first tow can be replaced without disassembling the whole rear end. To replace the third one yo must disassemble the entire unit. From the look of things you need to change them all. I suggest a new style neoprene seal for the inner grease seal, and felt for the outside grease seal as well as felt for the inner oil seal.

[Mark Gregush]

In order to replace the inner seal, we are talking about the outer roller bearing area, you have to pull the outer cap, seal and washer (there should be a washer, if it is missing the roller bearing will just chew up the felt, same with the felt inboard), bearing and sleeve. There is or should be a washer that is held in place by the sleeve inboard so it can't come out with out removing the sleeve. The cup that holds that seal is riveted in place. If the inboard washer is missing you need to replace it, as said above if it is missing the bearing will chew up the felt.

For the outer seal I suggest the kit sold by the dealers;
https://www.modeltford.com/item/1021-2-3.aspx
As I recall the metal cup for above fits loose on the hub so I cut a few slots around the edge then used a strong hose clamps to tighten on to the hub.

If you want to get modern, this seal replaces the one that fits in the cup;
https://www.modeltford.com/item/1026N.aspx

Or if you just want to use the felt seal that fits in the cup call Tom at the Model A Ford Works 503-282-2212. The ones sold by dealers are made wrong. The outer diameter is too big and hole is too small. The early AA with worm drive used the same seals as the TT so Tom made the dies to punch them out. They do cost more then the current ones.

Re the outer cap; The original setup there was no felt seal under the cap. The cap/washer was just to hold the bearing in place and help keep dust out somewhat. There was a felt between that cap and the rear wheel hub. If you look you will see the groove it would have fit into. Over the years the felt between the hub and that cap was left out by people repairing them and a thin felt added under the cap. If yours still has the original caps you will note that they are not very deep. The modern outer kit replaces that felt.
Side note; most all Model T car rear hubs have that groove in them because they also used a felt in that area along with the felt under the cap.

[Burger in Spokane]

Ford's special TT Racing Division offers a whole catalogue of performance parts and
accessories for the serious truck racer.

OK, ... maybe not.

[HPetrino]

You had me for a minute Burger. Hahahaha.

Reminds me of the story about the snail and the tortoise who decided to have a race. They agreed to meet at the race track at 8:00 A.M. on Monday. So, on Monday morning the flag went down and they were off! Suddenly, Wednesday morning around 10:00, as they were rounding the first bend there was a terrible crash. When the crash crew arrived on the scene they found the snail smashed beyond recognition. The tortoise was on his back with his feet grabbing at air. They turned the tortoise right side up and asked him what happened. He replied, "I don't know. It all happened so fast!"

You kinda need to be a TT guy to appreciate that story.

[A Whiteman]

I would suggest getting modern linings bonded to the shoes, champher the ends and you are ready to go. A lot easier than rivets

[Burger in Spokane]

You had me for a minute Burger. Hahahaha.

Reminds me of the story about the snail and the tortoise who decided to have a race. They agreed to meet at the race track at 8:00 A.M. on Monday. So, on Monday morning the flag went down and they were off! Suddenly, Wednesday morning around 10:00, as they were rounding the first bend there was a terrible crash. When the crash crew arrived on the scene they found the snail smashed beyond recognition. The tortoise was on his back with his feet grabbing at air. They turned the tortoise right side up and asked him what happened. He replied, "I don't know. It all happened so fast!"

You kinda need to be a TT guy to appreciate that story.

======================================

A self-deprecating sense of humor is mandatory with any 20hp vehicle. Doubly so with
a low-geared truck version.

I met a couple today, that after some conversation, revealed that they own an unrestored
1916 T touring car. He has had the car for 50 years. He expressed a desire to "restore" it, but
has strong reservations about the inadequacy of the brakes, saying it has deterred him from
ever digging it out of the back of his garage.
I offered up some ideas and asked some questions, mostly about WHY he has or wants to own
a Model T, ... his expectations and/or pleasures, as a starting point for how to go about making
his T fulfill those desires, balanced against his fear of modern traffic and safety. I suspect that
they will be coming around the shop in the future. They seemed pretty inspired that with a
little help and direction, they can enjoy the car as a driver. I am just excited to see an unmolested
'16 sitting all covered in dust in the back of a garage !

[Gbharless]

Thanks for the info! I don’t even know where to start looking to get the brake shoes lined. Great to know that it’s an option so I’ll start Asking/ calling around. I’m having a heck of a time pulling the right wheel even with the tool. Been beating on the pulling tool pretty hard to the point that i’m afraid it will break. Not sure if Langs has a tool warranty so I’d rather not be out 90 bucks. Been putting off buying a repair manual but it seems that I might need to because I don’t understand how to remove the sleeve/roller bearing since it’s riveted. So for now, all I can get to is the outer cap and felt pad. It has the cap with a groove but no washer behind the felt pad. Seems like a dumb question... how do you remove the roller bearing to get to the inner bearing seal?

[RajoRacer]

Fetch a piece of stiff, steel wire, bend a hook onto it, insert between axle shaft & cage and pull - sometimes it easier to have someone turn the engine over in gear (with the h.b. lever forward) to facilitate the bearing to roll - should pull right out.

Removing the bearing sleeve is another endeavor which requires a sleeve puller (best) or there is a couple "shade-tree" procedures which usually result in damaging the sleeve !

[Gbharless]

Thanks, I was able to pull the roller bearing out with an old coat hanger. I was thinking it would be more difficult. I’ll place an order for the sleeve puller and washers since the outer felt pad was up against the roller bearing.

[Mark Gregush]

If you have not ordered read my post. The original cup is too short to install a felt except for a very thin one (maybe 1/8-3/16 compressed) with the washer installed. The cup will just spin with the wheel because there is nothing to hold it in place around the sides with a felt that will be thick enough to really help under it. The washer was missing because to have a felt thick enough to do the job it was left out.

[Gbharless]

Mark, I will be ordering based on your previous post. I’ll be getting the new cap, washer and felt for the outer bearing seal. I plan to cut notches and hose clamp as you suggested. I’ll try contacting Tom again for the felt for the felt seal inside the cup. I’m sure they are less $$ than the modern seal kit. I don’t want to soak a bunch in this to find out my axle is wore out and oil still gets past. The tech at Lang’s said that seals only work if there is less than 1/32” of play. I’ll check again this afternoon but I’m pretty sure there’s about 1/8 of play. I read post about tip on removing the other wheel. Going to try heat and driving around after i get the left side back together. Thanks again for all the info!

[Mark Gregush]

Fantastic! Before you cut the slits, check the fit first. If they need to be driven on then the slits will not be necessary. RE the heat! Don't get too gung-ho with the heat, with all the grease and wood spokes, don't want to burn the spokes up!

[Mark Gregush]

Greg, just a heads up the felts should go out in the mail Wed.
Thanks
Mark

[Gbharless]

Mark / All,

I had a blimp in the Doodlebug project and the axle seals have been sitting on the shelf since late November. I finally had some time this morning to start working on it again.

Everything was going smooth until I tried to put the sleeve back in after replacing the inner seal. It seems that the sleeve is against the inner seal and it will not go in the last 3/8” in order to be flush with the axle housing. At first, I thought maybe as the seal gets ‘wet’ it will eventually compress so I started to insert the roller bearing. Problem with that is the roller bearing won’t fit because it seems like the sleeve is still compressed.

I took it all apart again thinking I could shave down the inner seal and re-install but didn’t have any luck removing it. Only good thing was I realized I forgot to re-install the inner washer.

Currently it sits with inner seal/ washer and sleeve in all the way but the last 3/8”.

I attached a few pictures. The one picture shows the other inner seal against the sleeve.

Any suggestions on what to do?

Thanks in advance!!

[Gbharless]

Never-mind!! Sometime you just need to walk away and come back. Pulled the sleeve out again and started pushing on the felt washer with a thick flat head screw driver. i realized that there was a lip that it needed to be inside of. Rookie mistake I guess. So far so good. The grease hole lines up perfect!

[Mark Gregush]

Great!