Hood shelf clip replacement help needed.

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Sarikatime
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Hood shelf clip replacement help needed.

Post by Sarikatime » Wed Dec 04, 2019 1:08 pm

I bought new hood shelves and hood handles but having an impossible time replacing the hood hold down handle next to the starter. Is there a method to installing that hood handle which obviously I am not aware of? It is a wood hood shelf for a brass model that I installed a starter on. Any and all help greatly appreciated. Frank


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Re: Hood shelf clip replacement help needed.

Post by Original Smith » Wed Dec 04, 2019 1:13 pm

How are we supposed to know what you are talking about when you don't give the year of your car??


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Re: Hood shelf clip replacement help needed.

Post by Scott_Conger » Wed Dec 04, 2019 1:57 pm

Frank

generally speaking, the hood hood hold down latches can be fit to the shelf first. With proper small washers and cotter pins suitably curled back and trimmed, they will fit down through the frame and you can then simply bolt the shelves to the frame with the two long carriage bolts.

Photo courtesey of Tom Benjay:
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hood latch washers.jpg
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Re: Hood shelf clip replacement help needed.

Post by hpetrino » Wed Dec 04, 2019 2:02 pm

Is it a TT? They have their own longer clips.


hpetrino
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Re: Hood shelf clip replacement help needed.

Post by hpetrino » Wed Dec 04, 2019 2:03 pm

oops. You did say "brass". Sorry.

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Re: Hood shelf clip replacement help needed.

Post by RajoRacer » Wed Dec 04, 2019 5:47 pm

Going through the same ordeal Frank - no room to hold all the pieces together & insert a cotter pin - flippin starter's in the way unless you are a Rubber Band Man ! I'm going to try the suggestion of a small O.D. washer & fold the cotter pin around the hood holder so it will go through the frame hole (possibly enlarged a tad !).

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Re: Hood shelf clip replacement help needed.

Post by rondupree » Wed Dec 04, 2019 6:16 pm

Go to the hardware store and look for some metric flat washers that will just go over the end of the hook. Install the spring and hook as an assembly on the block. Be sure that the cotter pin does not extend past the od of the washer. You should now be able to install the hold down and block as a unit.


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Re: Hood shelf clip replacement help needed.

Post by wayne sheldon » Wed Dec 04, 2019 8:48 pm

He would need to drill considerably larger holes in the frame to try a couple of the suggestions above. Not necessarily a good idea. The best idea short of keeping the car "no starter" would be to install the fenders and hood clips before installing the starter. The brass era cars without a starter are tough enough to install those clips as per original design. Once the starter is in the way, the best thing may be to go through all the trouble to remove the starter (don't forget to remove the Bendix first!), install the hood clips, and then reinstall the starter. A royal pain in the ?? I know. But it may be the easiest way, short of drilling four 3/8 inch holes in the top of the frame.

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Re: Hood shelf clip replacement help needed.

Post by Walter Higgins » Wed Dec 04, 2019 9:08 pm

You make a spacer tool like so with a slot that stands on the inside of the frame rail. Cram the tool in place with the spring and washer on top, drop the clip through, align hole in clip with the slot in the tool, install the cotter pin, and remove.
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20191204_210534.jpg


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Re: Hood shelf clip replacement help needed.

Post by Scott_Conger » Wed Dec 04, 2019 11:44 pm

Wayne, if what you say is true, then my appologies to the OP. It's been years since I had a brass car down to that extent and my only history with this area recently is on the '23 I'm putting back together.

Frank, Sorry for promoting bad info if that is the case.
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Re: Hood shelf clip replacement help needed.

Post by wayne sheldon » Thu Dec 05, 2019 1:12 am

My apologies Scott C, I hadn't noticed the name on the posts. The brass era Ts had both hood latches go through the frame rail, whereas the black era Ts had only the front hood latch went through the frame. The rear mounted outboard on a piece of wood which was bolted along with the hood shelf back end along with the wood piece and held the rear hood latch outside the frame rail. That makes it much easier to fight the latch hook and spring into place. I am not actually sure about the '26/'27 improved Ts, never worked on any very much. However, all the other black era Ts had the front hood latch go through frame rail. At least up there, they weren't quite as difficult to work with that nasty cotter pin and spring (and yes a tool like Walter H shows can help quite a bit for the front one!). I don't recall what year it was, but at some point around 1923, I understand that Ford did put a larger hole in the frame for the front hood latch. On those cars, the hood latches can be easily installed onto the hood shelf. For the brass era cars one could drill larger holes in the frame for the springs to go through. I tend to be uncomfortable with drilling many unnecessary holes in model T frames. But that is an option that maybe should be considered.

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Re: Hood shelf clip replacement help needed.

Post by rondupree » Thu Dec 05, 2019 8:22 am

The metric washers are not much larger than the od of the springs and are about the same size as the Ford washers. They should not require drilling larger holes in the frame.

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Re: Hood shelf clip replacement help needed.

Post by Walter Higgins » Thu Dec 05, 2019 9:50 am

You cannot just use a smaller washer because the spring itself is not intended to pass through the frame. Drilling the frame for topside installation of the assembly is not a good idea because then the clip spring is then pulling against the thin wood shelf on ends that are unsupported.

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Re: Hood shelf clip replacement help needed.

Post by CudaMan » Thu Dec 05, 2019 9:57 am

Step 10, Figure 9 of the Ford service manual shows a mechanic removing the hood shelves from the frame with the hood clips and springs still attached to the shelves.

Step 133, Figure 112 of the Ford service manual shows a mechanic installing the hood shelves onto the frame with the hood clips and springs already attached to the shelves.

What has changed since then to make this impossible? Incorrectly dimensioned reproduction parts?
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Re: Hood shelf clip replacement help needed.

Post by Norman Kling » Thu Dec 05, 2019 10:59 am

Although I have never tried to install a hood shelf clip on an early brass car with a starter, this is how I do it on the cars I have. I use an adjustable valve spring lifter tool and set it to a narrow position, then put on the spring and washer and compress the spring with the tool and insert the cotter pin. Another possibility would be to compress the spring before installing it and use a strong piece of string to hold the spring in it's compressed position, then install the spring and washer and cotter pin and after all is in place, cut the string.
Norm

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Re: Hood shelf clip replacement help needed.

Post by Walter Higgins » Thu Dec 05, 2019 12:27 pm

CudaMan wrote:
Thu Dec 05, 2019 9:57 am
Step 10, Figure 9 of the Ford service manual shows a mechanic removing the hood shelves from the frame with the hood clips and springs still attached to the shelves.

Step 133, Figure 112 of the Ford service manual shows a mechanic installing the hood shelves onto the frame with the hood clips and springs already attached to the shelves.

What has changed since then to make this impossible? Incorrectly dimensioned reproduction parts?

Nothing has changed since then, it is what was different before. Like the o.p. stated, it is on a brass era T. What you've referenced in the service manual is for a later black era car. The hole in the frame through which the hood clip passes in earlier cars with wood shelves is only just big enough for the the stem and is supposed to be that way.

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Re: Hood shelf clip replacement help needed.

Post by Henry K. Lee » Thu Dec 05, 2019 12:29 pm

Really Frank!

Invite those Grand Children over with small fingers!

LOL!

Hank

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Re: Hood shelf clip replacement help needed.

Post by RajoRacer » Thu Dec 05, 2019 1:35 pm

It's not just a case of having little fingers - they need to be about 8" long to boot !

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Re: Hood shelf clip replacement help needed.

Post by CudaMan » Thu Dec 05, 2019 2:01 pm

Thanks for the clarification Walter, I didn't realize that the frame holes on the early cars was smaller. The larger holes must have been added later based on input from the assemblers who were having just as much trouble as we do today. :)
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Re: Hood shelf clip replacement help needed.

Post by Walter Higgins » Thu Dec 05, 2019 2:42 pm

I think that's very much the case. Being able to make an assembly on the bench and slap it on is much more appealing having to futz with everything on car. I'm guessing the addition of a starter was not a factor in the equation since having one still makes installing the rear bolt on that side a problem.


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Re: Hood shelf clip replacement help needed.

Post by Sarikatime » Thu Dec 05, 2019 3:21 pm

Walter, you are right about the top outside bolt a problem on the starter. I solved that by helicoiling the starter casing and installing the bolt in reverse from the hogshead forward.
As far as the hood clip, I like the idea of drilling the one hole in the frame next to the starter larger and installing the hood clip on the wood hood shelf and install the whole thing all together. Lot of great ideas guys, thank you. Frank

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Re: Hood shelf clip replacement help needed.

Post by Walter Higgins » Thu Dec 05, 2019 3:31 pm

Over time that's not going to do your hood shelf any favors. It is unsupported beyond the shelf bolt and it going to be yanking the end of the shelf up against your hood former.

As to the bolt on the rear, I wasn't talking about a starter mounting bolt but rather the starter being in the way of the rear bolt holding on the shelf. The starter is just as much in the way of the shelf mounting bolt as it is the hood clip itself to say nothing of having to work around the column, if you already have that installed, too.

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Re: Hood shelf clip replacement help needed.

Post by RajoRacer » Thu Dec 05, 2019 4:11 pm

I enlarged the rear shelf frame hole to 7/16" for the washer to clear and my hood shelf (1914) bolts go through both the upper & lower frame sections so no issues with those.

On flat firewall cars with an electric starter installed, one needs to remove the upright firewall bracket and notch the firewall to gain access to the top right starter screw/bolt to either remove or install - removing that bracket with the starter in is kind of a bugger !!!


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Re: Hood shelf clip replacement help needed.

Post by Allan » Thu Dec 05, 2019 4:31 pm

Making the whole exercise more difficult is the strength of the reproduction springs offered. I have found them way too strong to comfortably compress at times. I use springs selected from a parts house offering. These are also much easier on aluminium hoods on early cars.

Allan from down under.

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