Piquette Ave. numbers

Discuss all things Model T related.
Forum rules
If you need help logging in, or have question about how something works, use the Support forum located here Support Forum
Complete set of Forum Rules Forum Rules

Topic author
Belliott3
Posts: 333
Joined: Sat Jan 19, 2019 7:44 pm
First Name: Bill
Last Name: Elliott
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1916 Model T Touring
Location: Michigan
MTFCA Number: 52438
MTFCI Number: 22121
Board Member Since: 2006

Piquette Ave. numbers

Post by Belliott3 » Tue Jan 29, 2019 9:44 pm

Is there any way to know for sure if your early T was built at the Piquette Avenue plant? I've read differing opinions as to when exactly production moved to Highland Park, but is there any documents from the era that disclose which were the last T serial numbers to be put together at Piquette? My 1910 touring, serial number 15851 has a build date of 2/4/10, which would be early in the calendar year so I'm wondering if it was built at Piquette. Any information would be appreciated, thanks!


Alan Long
Posts: 381
Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2019 2:33 am
First Name: Alan
Last Name: Long
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1910 Canadian Touring Car and 1926 Australian built Utility
Location: Western Australia

Re: Piquette Ave. numbers

Post by Alan Long » Fri Feb 01, 2019 12:06 am

Come on, isn’t there anyone that can assist with this question?

I can’t confirm it but I believe that my 33435 was a Highland Park build as it was in November 1910
when it was shipped over to Canada and a “ engine only, special RH Control”

Alan in Western Australia

Allan, shouldn't that be an engine ??? 😁
Per Steve Jelf's post ???


Topic author
Belliott3
Posts: 333
Joined: Sat Jan 19, 2019 7:44 pm
First Name: Bill
Last Name: Elliott
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1916 Model T Touring
Location: Michigan
MTFCA Number: 52438
MTFCI Number: 22121
Board Member Since: 2006

Re: Piquette Ave. numbers

Post by Belliott3 » Fri Feb 01, 2019 1:24 pm

Alan, thanks for responding to my post! I was beginning to think I did something wrong in posting this query, since on one responded. I think, from everything I've read online, that the Piquette plant opened in January of 1910. Therefore, my February 4 1910 Touring must have been built at the Highland Park plant, unless they were still building them at Piquette at that time as well. I sure wish someone with some Piquette facts could chime in.

User avatar

REHelgeson
Posts: 53
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 2:13 pm
First Name: Robert
Last Name: Helgeson
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1914 Farm Truck, 1926 Pickup
Location: Illinois
MTFCA Number: 31827
MTFCI Number: 25052
Board Member Since: 1999

Re: Piquette Ave. numbers

Post by REHelgeson » Fri Feb 01, 2019 2:17 pm

I know there are those who know more than I do about early T production. Seems I recall the number of Ts produced at the Piquette plant to be around 10,000.

User avatar

Rob
Posts: 1431
Joined: Fri Jan 04, 2019 1:53 pm
First Name: Rob
Last Name: Heyen
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: Models B, F, K, N, Ford racer and 3 Model T
Location: Eastern Nebraska

Re: Piquette Ave. numbers

Post by Rob » Fri Feb 01, 2019 2:53 pm

The Piquette site writes the following:

HISTORY
The Ford Motor Company’s first purpose-built factory. Previously space was rented on Mack Ave.
Ford Models B, C, F, K, N, R, S, and T were assembled here.
The Ford Model T was developed here, introduced in 1908 as a 1909 model.
The first 12,000 Model Ts were assembled here and shipped out by railroad.
Ford Motor Company relocated to its new Highland Park Plant in 1910, selling the Piquette building to Studebaker in 1911.

Link:
https://www.fordpiquetteplant.org/about/history/

According to the MTFCA Encyclopedia, that should be about late October 1909. The encyclopedia does say dates are based on sale, not manufacture.

Link:

http://www.mtfca.com/encyclo/sernos.htm

For what it's worth, I thought some components were still assembled at Piquette for a time after Highland Park began production.

User avatar

TonyB
Posts: 663
Joined: Fri Jan 04, 2019 11:15 am
First Name: Tony
Last Name: Bowker
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1914 touring
Location: La Mesa, CA
MTFCA Number: 32
MTFCA Life Member: YES
Board Member Since: 2005

Re: Piquette Ave. numbers

Post by TonyB » Mon Feb 04, 2019 4:52 pm

My research on my T which is serial number 11150 is that it was finally assembled at the Piquette plant on Oct 4, 1909. The transmission shaft is stamped 09 30 09.
Tony Bowker
La Mesa, California
1914 Touring, 1915 Speedster, 1924 Coupe.

User avatar

TonyB
Posts: 663
Joined: Fri Jan 04, 2019 11:15 am
First Name: Tony
Last Name: Bowker
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1914 touring
Location: La Mesa, CA
MTFCA Number: 32
MTFCA Life Member: YES
Board Member Since: 2005

Re: Piquette Ave. numbers

Post by TonyB » Mon Feb 04, 2019 4:57 pm

The reference from the Piquette plant reads:

The first 12,000 Model Ts were assembled here and shipped out by railroad.
Ford Motor Company relocated to its new Highland Park Plant in 1910, selling the Piquette building to Studebaker in 1911.

It never states or implies, any cars were assembled at Highand Park in 1909.
Tony Bowker
La Mesa, California
1914 Touring, 1915 Speedster, 1924 Coupe.


Steve Shotwell
Posts: 1
Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2019 5:35 pm
First Name: Steve
Last Name: Shotwell
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1916 Model T Runabout Pickup
Location: Detroit
MTFCA Number: 23566
MTFCI Number: 18710
Board Member Since: 2006

Re: Piquette Ave. numbers

Post by Steve Shotwell » Mon Feb 04, 2019 6:52 pm

Others on this forum have been providing you with good information.
The first ~12,000 Model T's (1909 and 1910 model years) were made at Piquette.
Production cars (not experimental cars) started leaving Piquette on September 27, 1908.
Production of 1910 Model T's began July 31, 1909 - yes, at Piquette.
Ford pulled out of Piquette, however, in very early January 1910 to go to the Highland Park Plant.
Your serial number (assuming that was the original serial numbered engine in your car) accurately puts your engine assembly date as February 4, 1910.
The information you have provided make it mostly clear that your assembly was at Highland Park.
But wait! This is the time where Ford history buffs usually chime in and accurately declare that your Model T could have been assembled in about 40 other places! FMC setup up multiple places in the US and abroad to assemble Model T's.
The good news for you is that these "branch assembly locations" did not appear until 1911 and after.
I tell people that my 1916 Model T could have been assembled just about anywhere!
-----------------------------
Bottom line - your car was assembled at Highland Park - IF it has the original engine.
----------------------------
The next time you are in Detroit, I welcome you to come to Piquette. We have lots of displays and vehicles that you might enjoy. While we primarily focus on Piquette-built cars, we proudly provide significant historical data on all Ford cars from 1903 through 1927.

I hope this was helpful to you.

By the way - YES, I failed to answer your original question and provide the last serial number on an engine that left Piquette in early January 1910. Great question! I do not know the answer, but let me work on that one. I am not an "expert" - just a guy who soaks in a lot from others.

Thanks,
Steve Shotwell, President (also maintenance man, snow shoveler, painter, stainer, roof fixer, toilet plunger and light bulb guy, etc.)
Ford Piquette Avenue Plant

User avatar

Bob McDaniel
Posts: 444
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 1:44 pm
First Name: Bob
Last Name: McDaniel
Location: Smithville TN.
MTFCA Number: 28428
Board Member Since: 2007

Re: Piquette Ave. numbers

Post by Bob McDaniel » Mon Feb 04, 2019 9:56 pm

I am not an expert on the early brass T but thought I read somewhere that the engine number matched the body tag number on 09 and 10 T's. Am I wrong or is this true? Can we tell anything from the body tag numbers on the early cars?
Give an old car guy a barn and he won't throw anything away.

User avatar

DanTreace
Posts: 3299
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 10:56 am
First Name: Dan
Last Name: Treace
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: '23 cutoff, '25 touring, '27 touring
Location: North Central FL
MTFCA Number: 4838
MTFCI Number: 115
Board Member Since: 2000
Contact:

Re: Piquette Ave. numbers

Post by DanTreace » Mon Feb 04, 2019 10:10 pm

From Bruce McCalley research (CD Encyclopedia)

1911 OCT 6 (Acc. 509, Letter)
Motor and body numbers not to agree in the future.
The best way is always the simplest. The attics of the world are cluttered up with complicated failures. Henry Ford
Don’t find fault, find a remedy; anybody can complain. Henry Ford

User avatar

TonyB
Posts: 663
Joined: Fri Jan 04, 2019 11:15 am
First Name: Tony
Last Name: Bowker
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1914 touring
Location: La Mesa, CA
MTFCA Number: 32
MTFCA Life Member: YES
Board Member Since: 2005

Re: Piquette Ave. numbers

Post by TonyB » Mon Feb 04, 2019 10:28 pm

Based on a sample of one, there appears to be no connection between engine numbers and body numbers on the Piquette Ts. My engine number is 11150 and the body number B7264. Pictures of both numbers on my T are in my 2018 thread on the resurrection of my Model T. 😊😊
Tony Bowker
La Mesa, California
1914 Touring, 1915 Speedster, 1924 Coupe.

User avatar

Duey_C
Posts: 1518
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 12:28 pm
First Name: Duane
Last Name: Cooley
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 18 Runabout, 24 Runabout for 20yrs, 25 TT, late Center Door project, open express pickup
Location: central MN
MTFCA Number: 32488
Board Member Since: 2015

Re: Piquette Ave. numbers

Post by Duey_C » Tue Feb 05, 2019 1:01 am

Steve S. Thanks for posting! It's really nice to see to see the pres of a most cherished place for us posting here. :)
Should I ever get near Detroit again, I'm going to visit your shop! Light bulbs or no!
I need to do that. I'd likely weep and potty my pants tho due to the history. :lol:
True.
Since I lost my mind mind, I feel more liberated


Topic author
Belliott3
Posts: 333
Joined: Sat Jan 19, 2019 7:44 pm
First Name: Bill
Last Name: Elliott
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1916 Model T Touring
Location: Michigan
MTFCA Number: 52438
MTFCI Number: 22121
Board Member Since: 2006

Re: Piquette Ave. numbers

Post by Belliott3 » Tue Feb 05, 2019 7:07 am

Wow, great information Steve - thanks! I was hoping you'd chime in, since you have spent a lot of time at the Piquette Plant. Your research is top notch and I do hope that perhaps you can find the last numbers assembled at the plant. And Tony, I believe Bob was referring to the Ford body tag located on the front seat front that typically has the same number stamped on it as the engine does, at least for the early cars I believe. The body number you're referring to is the one stamped into the wooden seat frame done by the maker of the wooden bodies. Since yours begins with a B, as does mine, it indicates that Beaudette (or Pontiac body I think) located in Flint built the body and it has nothing to do with the engine numbers or any other numbers that Ford applied.

User avatar

TonyB
Posts: 663
Joined: Fri Jan 04, 2019 11:15 am
First Name: Tony
Last Name: Bowker
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1914 touring
Location: La Mesa, CA
MTFCA Number: 32
MTFCA Life Member: YES
Board Member Since: 2005

Re: Piquette Ave. numbers

Post by TonyB » Tue Feb 05, 2019 11:08 am

Bill, could you post a picture of the location of the “Ford body number” so I know just where to look on mine.
Tony Bowker
La Mesa, California
1914 Touring, 1915 Speedster, 1924 Coupe.


Topic author
Belliott3
Posts: 333
Joined: Sat Jan 19, 2019 7:44 pm
First Name: Bill
Last Name: Elliott
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1916 Model T Touring
Location: Michigan
MTFCA Number: 52438
MTFCI Number: 22121
Board Member Since: 2006

Re: Piquette Ave. numbers

Post by Belliott3 » Tue Feb 05, 2019 11:33 am

Tony, I don't have any photos but I think I've misspoke; it's called a patent data plate and it's the metal one that Ford attached to the front of the front seat riser.

User avatar

TonyB
Posts: 663
Joined: Fri Jan 04, 2019 11:15 am
First Name: Tony
Last Name: Bowker
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1914 touring
Location: La Mesa, CA
MTFCA Number: 32
MTFCA Life Member: YES
Board Member Since: 2005

Re: Piquette Ave. numbers

Post by TonyB » Fri Feb 08, 2019 12:48 am

I have that plate but it Is illegible, I’ll look more closely and report back.
Tony Bowker
La Mesa, California
1914 Touring, 1915 Speedster, 1924 Coupe.

User avatar

TonyB
Posts: 663
Joined: Fri Jan 04, 2019 11:15 am
First Name: Tony
Last Name: Bowker
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1914 touring
Location: La Mesa, CA
MTFCA Number: 32
MTFCA Life Member: YES
Board Member Since: 2005

Re: Piquette Ave. numbers

Post by TonyB » Sat Feb 09, 2019 2:47 pm

This is a photo of the body plate that was on the top of the kick panel
Body plate from my 1909 Touring
Body plate from my 1909 Touring
Tony Bowker
La Mesa, California
1914 Touring, 1915 Speedster, 1924 Coupe.


Original Smith
Posts: 3284
Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2019 10:43 am
First Name: Larry
Last Name: Smith
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 13 Touring, 13 Roadster, 17 Coupelet, 25 Roadster P/U
Location: Lomita, California
MTFCA Number: 121
MTFCA Life Member: YES
MTFCI Number: 16310

Re: Piquette Ave. numbers

Post by Original Smith » Sun Feb 10, 2019 10:35 am

Tony:
That is what happens when someone takes a buffer to a patent plate. What a shame!


Topic author
Belliott3
Posts: 333
Joined: Sat Jan 19, 2019 7:44 pm
First Name: Bill
Last Name: Elliott
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1916 Model T Touring
Location: Michigan
MTFCA Number: 52438
MTFCI Number: 22121
Board Member Since: 2006

Re: Piquette Ave. numbers

Post by Belliott3 » Mon Feb 11, 2019 7:07 am

Tony, I believe that patent plate is incorrect for your 1909; the early ones (1909-11) were a smaller, vertical rectangular plate with the number stamped at the bottom of the plate. Yours appears to be a pretty old looking 1913-16 patent plate that someone stamped an early number on. Do you know if your body is original to your engine?

User avatar

TonyB
Posts: 663
Joined: Fri Jan 04, 2019 11:15 am
First Name: Tony
Last Name: Bowker
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1914 touring
Location: La Mesa, CA
MTFCA Number: 32
MTFCA Life Member: YES
Board Member Since: 2005

Re: Piquette Ave. numbers

Post by TonyB » Wed Feb 13, 2019 6:43 pm

I believe the body and engine were original to the chassis. The holes in the body match the holes in the patent plate. However I suspect the vehicle was first restored in the 1950’s as it has a replacement firewall with the manufacturers name and town stamped under the coil box. The manufacturer moved towns in the early 60’s,so I’m fairly confident about the date of the first restoration.
Tony Bowker
La Mesa, California
1914 Touring, 1915 Speedster, 1924 Coupe.

Post Reply Previous topicNext topic