Getting Rattles Back On The Road

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Mopar_man
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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by Mopar_man » Sat Mar 21, 2020 4:03 pm

J&M Machine just sent some more pictures of the gears getting done.
gear.jpg
Triple Gears.jpg

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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by Mopar_man » Tue Mar 24, 2020 9:04 pm

Well this is what you get when you combine two hobbies. I used to restore old clocks and had this big tumbler with steel shot that was used to clean up the parts. I decided to try it on some bolts. It worked ok and didn't mess up the threads. I used Dawn soap and water.
IMG_3329.jpeg
IMG_3330.jpeg

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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by Mopar_man » Thu Mar 26, 2020 10:16 pm

Well today J&M Machine sent me some pictures of the balancing process. John told me that this was not done by the factory but will sure make a big difference in keeping the "Rattles" out of it. Ha!! What a neat process and John and Michael are great to deal with. Unfortunately for me Most everything In my transmission was cracked or broken. I have seen first hand how the cost of doing it right can add up. I'm ok with that. This car is defiantly not an investment it's for the family to have fun and I plan on keeping it for a long time. If I learned anything it's that the Model T has to have everything working together. If not you run the risk of things "coming from together".

So let's get to the eye candy.

The pins pressed into the flywheel.
Pins in.jpg
Magnets going on.
Mags going on.jpg
Mags all on.jpg
on the balance machine. I couldn't get the stats to post but the flywheel was off. John said that's why it's so important to balance it. After you take all the magnets off and on and get it all together it's off.
Balence machine.jpg
Removing some material.
removing materal.jpg

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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by Mopar_man » Thu Mar 26, 2020 10:16 pm

After it was done the whole thing was surfaced so when I set the gap it will easer.
Mags on.jpg

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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by Mopar_man » Fri Mar 27, 2020 8:03 pm

Got this out of sequence. The flywheel gets surfaced first then balanced. seem logical since you are removing material.

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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by Mopar_man » Fri Mar 27, 2020 8:55 pm

So I'm going to quote from John at J&M. "I balanced the triple gears today as tat is part of the flywheel balancing. They need to be weight matched. Have a look at the pictures off at 4 grams. After a spin in the lathe I have them at 3 tenths of a gram."
gear weight.jpg
gear.jpg


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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by SteveTN » Sat Mar 28, 2020 11:13 am

Kicked you a note on the wrench for the transmission bolts.

Was the original "horse shoe" shim (that's what I call it anyway) there when you pulled the transmission? In my (somewhat limited) experience it makes resetting easier. If you have it keep it.

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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by Mopar_man » Sat Mar 28, 2020 8:47 pm

Well today I took out the valves I was able to use a Brigs and Stratton valve spring compressor. Most came right out but some had some sticky oil. I was able to pull them out with my hands. I numbered them 1-8 and then put each in a plastic bag that was numbered. I'm going to clean them up and then lap them in.
IMG_3336.jpeg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=De-e_6LKYBw


Then I found my first repair.
IMG_3339.jpeg
Also looks like the cover was not centered on the CAM shaft.
IMG_3338.jpeg


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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by Scott_Conger » Sat Mar 28, 2020 9:54 pm

- New valves are not all that expensive...buy 8
- take the new valves to a good shop and have them kiss them incase one or more has shipping damage (they only come in a little paper sleeve)
a cheap can of clover valve grinding paste is one of the most expensive things you can buy for your car. I leave it on the shelf at the store for the guys who have money to install valve seats after wrecking their block with the stuff.
- buy or borrow a Neway carbide cutter kit and do a correct 3 angle seat with the exactly correct seat width
- verify your work with a schmeer of prussian blue and continue to fend off the desire to "just do a little kiss" on the valves with paste. The cutter is all you need.
- contratulate yourself for not falling into the "back in the day" syndrome and doing a tidy professional job with modern tools and methods. If everything was better then, we'd still be drilling teeth with foot powered drills and we'd be buying Heroin for our cough, from Bayer Pharmaceuticals (today you can get it outside of a pharmacy if you know the right person, so there is that, though).

Feel free to email me with questions
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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by Mopar_man » Sat Mar 28, 2020 11:22 pm

Scott I agree with what you are saying. The right way to do the valves would be new valves, springs, Valve guides, and hardened seats. My goal with this engine was to fix the transmission and drive it. As I started to take it apart I found some things that were done incorrectly. I'm trying to fix those items without having to rebuild the whole engine. I had to replace almost everything in the transmission because of cracks. I'm hoping to get away with checking things on the engine and not have to put more money into it. I know this is not the "right" way to do this. A total rebuild would be the correct thing to do. I'm glad I did what had to be done in the transmission. I very well could be brining the short block to J&M in the future. What I'm hoping for is the engine to run and not have a catastrophic failure. If it does then I'll have to rebuild it anyway. Time will tell if after weighing the risks I made the right decision or not. Thanks for the input and please keep it coming.


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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by Scott C. » Sat Mar 28, 2020 11:25 pm

That one valve, still in the block in your video looks to be fairly new. You might want to measure the valve stems with a micrometer. As well as the valve guide ID. They may very well be over size. That might explain the sticking, if someone used a worn reamer on the guides? Also, check the valve stems for wear and taper. If you see more than .002" replace them. I would have the valves ground to make sure that they are concentric and at the proper angle. When I was in the business, I ground every new valve to make sure they were right before I installed them. The seats look pretty good other than that one. But, I would have them ground also just to be sure that the valves seat properly. Then there will be no need to lap them. The valves should be ground at 44 degrees and the seats at 45. The 1 degree interference makes for a better seal. The "3 angle" is just cutting the top and bottom to control the seat contact area and width. The top of the seat is usually ground at either 15 or 30 degrees and the bottom at 60 degrees.


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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by Scott C. » Sat Mar 28, 2020 11:30 pm

I would also replace that front cover. There are plenty of them out there.

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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by Mopar_man » Sun Mar 29, 2020 10:08 am

Scott I was thinking the same thing. I'm going to take it off and see how they did the job.


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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by Scott_Conger » Sun Mar 29, 2020 2:56 pm

Robert, part of your self-description to "do it right" included valve seats. All of that takes a machine shop of course. Trust me a Neway cutter and new valves is a very good step in the right direction and is short of a major rebuild, (compared to lapping), "doing it right". A very credible job can be done on an old engine which will renew the pep in it's step. Far too many engines are simply sent to rebuilders because the owner either lacked the diagnostic skills or repair skills which may, with our amount of driving, have been able to put another 10-15 years on the car easily, and never visit the inside of a shop. So many new owners and a shocking number of seasoned owners will say "well, it developed a knock...off to the rebuilder it goes", and that's too bad. New engines are wonderful, but not everyone is climbing Mt. Evans or running the Mt 500 (and I'd wager that more than one "seasoned" engine has competed in a MT 500 over the years...they're not all fresh out of the babbit shop).
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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by Mopar_man » Sun Mar 29, 2020 11:13 pm

Scott Conger and Scott C,
Does the Neway cutter also do the valves or just the seats. If I got new valves how are the 3 angle cuts made. Is that done at a machine shop? I saw how the cutter is used putting a mandrel in the valve guide and turning it to do the seat. Once that is done is it necessary to match the valves to the seats or is that done with cutting the 3 angles?


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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by Scott C. » Mon Mar 30, 2020 12:27 am

Grinding the seats with a grinder or a cutter is typically done at a machine shop. But, some guys do have there own equipment. The valves need be faced in a valve grinder. Once the this is done and the seats are machined. Any valve could go in any seat. However, unless you have adjustable lifters, each valve stem end needs to be ground to set the valve lash. Then each valve needs to be kept in order. The valves do not need 3 angles ground on them, just the 44 degree face. The seats really do not need 3 angles either. The 45 degree is the face. The 60 degree is under the 45 and narrows the seat contact area and gives better air flow for the Hi Po guys. The 15, or 30 degree does the most for narrowing the seat. It moves the contact area away from the outer edge of the valve, thus making it run a little cooler. Again it also helps air flow. Any competent machinist should understand how to properly machine the valves and seats, The NewWay cutter just makes it quick and easy, compared to traditional grinding with stones.

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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by Mopar_man » Sun Apr 05, 2020 9:44 am

Well I got some more parts in the mail. I just need the centering tool for the cam shaft cover. It's on the way soon. Just got this cam shaft gear and the blots for the oil pan. The last guy used regular bolts with no holes for the cotter pins. See I now have a brass car. Ha Ha Ha. To bad no-one will ever see it.
IMG_3353.jpeg

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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by Susanne » Sun Apr 05, 2020 7:08 pm

Mopar_man wrote:
Sun Apr 05, 2020 9:44 am
Well I got some more parts in the mail. I just need the centering tool for the cam shaft cover. It's on the way soon. Just got this cam shaft gear and the blots for the oil pan. The last guy used regular bolts with no holes for the cotter pins. See I now have a brass car. Ha Ha Ha. To bad no-one will ever see it.

IMG_3353.jpeg
Thank you, that reminds me, I need to get hold of Dan for cam gears... one of the '15 (don;'t like the fiber one on there), one for the '17 engine build...


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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by Scott_Conger » Sun Apr 05, 2020 7:42 pm

Robert

I'm going to enclose a link which pretty much explains the cutters and how they work and how one or more posters felt that they worked. The set purchased by the OP in this thread purchased the valve resurfacer also. I would recommend sending valves to a shop to be finished even if they are new (cheap insurance for a multitude of problems which could creep up in shipping, stocking, and shipping again) and saving your money by not purchasing that accessory.

The 46 degree seat as well as top cut and bottom cut are described in the link. The top and bottom cuts work to place the valve seat where it belongs as well as narrowing it sufficiently such that the relatively weak valve springs will place enough pressure/sq. inch of face that they seal tightly and can bust up any stray carbon that gets caught...a wider seat will have very low seat pressure vs area and carbon will have a much better opportunity to lock a valve slightly open and cause burning in short order. As an example, a family in two early cars came through Yellowstone on their way from California to Va. They made the assault into Yellowstone from the west, but while in Yellowstone, one car became lame and had a rough time making it to Cody. By the time they made it 35 miles to my home, they were on two cylinders. Two exhaust valves were eaten 1/2 off and the seats were severely burned/pitted. All in about 125 miles. Neway and I sent them on their way in a couple days. Can't say enough good about the tool. If you do not see a future need for the tool, some one will likely loan or rent you what you need.

http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/50 ... 1221103739
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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by Mopar_man » Tue Apr 07, 2020 2:35 pm

Thanks Scott!

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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by Mopar_man » Sun Apr 12, 2020 6:54 pm

So tonight I tried to get the CAM out. I posted about that in another thread. So here is what I did today.

First I pulled off the roller and saved all this in a plastic bag.
IMG_3370.jpeg
Next the felt washer came out. I'm going to use a neoprene one.
IMG_3371.jpeg
To get the cam out first the cover had to come off. You can see the repair on the cover. Not sure if this is JB Weld or brazed.
IMG_3377.jpeg
The generator bracket after painting.
IMG_3378.jpeg
To take out the CAM you have to remove these two bolts.
IMG_3374.jpeg

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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by Mopar_man » Sun Apr 12, 2020 7:04 pm

Here is a video I made to show what I was doing.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F3Vspt_A3ks

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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by Mopar_man » Mon Apr 13, 2020 9:23 pm

Well tonight I got the CAM Shaft out and the new CAM gear on.
IMG_3388.jpeg
I'm not sure this CAM bearing was in correct. The notch was not towards the back of the motor when installed. So the top part of this picture was facing the back of the motor.
IMG_3389.jpeg
Looking at this part of the valve seat it looks like it has hardened seats installed.
IMG_3391.jpeg

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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by Mopar_man » Thu Apr 23, 2020 10:09 pm

So today I received my transmission in the mail. I opened up the boxes and It was like Christmas morning. The guys at J&M Machine did a great job and I can't say enough great things about them.
IMG_3413.jpeg
IMG_3411.jpeg
IMG_3414.jpeg
IMG_3415.jpeg

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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by Mopar_man » Thu Apr 23, 2020 10:12 pm

I also painted the Timing cover and Crank pulley.
IMG_3416.jpeg
I was also able to fit the center bearing on the cam shaft and get it to slide into the block. I thought I was going to have an issue with it but it went in just fine.

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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by Mopar_man » Sun May 03, 2020 9:33 pm

Well It's been a while since I've been able to get out to the garage. Today I got the Cam Shaft in.
IMG_3450.jpeg

For those who have never had a Cam Shaft out of a T before these two blots have a dowel end and hold two Cam Shaft bearings in place. The end of the shaft is supported by the block.
IMG_3451.jpeg
So now that I have adjustable lifters I have to grind off about 1/16th of an inch of the valve stem. You can see how much it sticks out of the seat. The cam lobe is on the low side and the adjustment is run down but also allowing for some adjustment.
IMG_3452.jpeg
I also got some cleaning done on the pan. I ran this part through the blaster.
IMG_3453.jpeg

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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by Mopar_man » Sun May 10, 2020 4:02 pm

So today I was able to put the timing cover on as well as the generator bracket. I hope I did it correctly. Here is how it went.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HZOtiRKoP9M

The tool made it seem easy to align the cover.
IMG_3467.jpeg
I used the new kind of seal. It fit well but I added a layer of sealant. I'm letting it dry for 24 hours.
IMG_3469.jpeg
Then I moved to fiting the shaft to the flywheel. Michael from J&M said that the new shaft may not fit into the flywheel hole. It seemed to go right in with no issue.
IMG_3470.jpeg
Now will come the fun part of shimming the Mag ring. I'm going to try the method that was described in the MTFCA Magazine.

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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by Mopar_man » Thu May 14, 2020 10:25 pm

So tonight after work (I still work for the Marine Corps, now as a civilian. Grateful that I can work from home) I started putting the valves together. Big thanks to John and Mike at J&M Machine. I sent the valves out to have a bit taken off the ends so they would fit with adjustable lifters. They turned them out in a day. I can't sing their praises enough. If you have machine work to do have them do it. You won't be sorry.

So first I made sure that the cam was on the back of the lobe. Then I got the gap adjusted to .015.
IMG_3476.jpeg
Then I put a bit of assembly lube on the valve stem and put the spring in with the keepers. When I see a Model T spring compressor I'm buying it. The small one I'm using is a bit awkward.
IMG_3477.jpeg
Then I turned the engine over and gave it a bit of a tap with a hammer to make sure that everything stayed together.
IMG_3478.jpeg
Still have a few more to go. Slow and steady is i don't make mistakes. I hope.


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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by Scott C. » Fri May 15, 2020 12:41 am

Your coming along really well. You will have a nice running T when your done. I am anxious to see a video of it running!!

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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by Mopar_man » Fri May 15, 2020 7:29 am

So am I. I still need to work on the steering column, coil box, and all the wiring. Lot's more to do but it's coming along.

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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by Mopar_man » Sat May 23, 2020 10:57 pm

Well I ran into a road block with the valves. The car had chevy valves installed and when i added adjustable lifters I had to have them shortened. Well the issue that I now have is that some of the seats were replaced and the valves fit fine. However, the ones with no seat were still too long. Can't take anymore off the stem so........ I ordered all new valves that were .30 over with pins instead of keepers. I'll install these and measure each one Then have the ends ground to fit.

Today I cleaned up the pan.
IMG_3494.jpeg
IMG_3496.jpeg
I was able to get it in the blast cabinet.
IMG_3495.jpeg
Then I flushed the radiator. I had posted about that in another thread.
IMG_3493.jpeg
I also took out the car and cleaned up a lot of the dirt and junk that was all over the firewall. As I was doing all this the mailman came with my valves from Lang's. He asked to take a look at the cars and really liked the T.


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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by OilyBill » Sun May 24, 2020 12:33 am

A couple things that someone else may have mentioned, but maybe not.
Cotter pins in the upper steering quadrant at the steering wheel: I don't know why Ford made them this way, except maybe to save money in manufacturing. I very carefully drill out the rivets, then thread the holes, and when I reinstall the quadrant casting, I use some nickel-plated round head screws. They look nice, and although they are NOT original, the do allow you to maintain your steering column much more easily.
"Black Beauty abrasive: I had the same problem. What I wound up doing is making a frame to hold some steel window screen over a bucket, then scoop the Black Beauty out of the bag, and screen it through into the bucket. You will find a number of particles that are too large to fit through the screen, and therefore, they will constantly clog up you blast cabinet. It only takes about 10 minutes to screen a 90 lb. bag of Black Beauty. Since all my screened abrasive is in buckets, I can put a lid on them to keep the material clean, and I also know that whatever is in the bucket is good material, ready to go. Once you have screened the material, you will find it works REALLY nice.

I have multiple cabinets, so after a while, I dump the abrasive from the "Heavy" cabinet (that gets the fresh-screened sand) and wash it with water to flush out the dirt and rust particles, and let it dry. It then goes in the "Second" cabinet, where the abrasive is now worn down and much finer, and gives a very gentle finish to delicate parts, like thin sheet metal brackets, and other small items.
Black Beauty is wonderful to use, and I think is a lot safer than actual sand, since it is copper smelting slag, and not sand.

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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by Mopar_man » Sun May 24, 2020 7:19 am

OliyBill,
So Ford made the steering quadrant with cotter pins? I thought they all came with rivets. Was this a 26-7 only thing? I'm already doing as you say with my blast cabinet. That good advice. Keeping the media clean will give a better result.

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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by Mopar_man » Mon May 25, 2020 10:33 pm

So today I took apart the cam shaft So I could fit the new valves. I know I did a good job sealing up the Cam shaft cover since I had to tap a razor blade in-between the metal to separate them. I ended up cleaning the cover up in the blast cabinet and repainting it.
IMG_3501.jpeg
I then put the cam back in and dummy me forgot the lifters. So I had to take it all apart again. I also painted the radiator and installed the shroud. I've had good luck with Radiator Black from Eastwood in the past.
IMG_3502.jpeg
IMG_3505.jpeg
Here is a video of how the day went.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=liva2C5mtcU

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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by Mopar_man » Sun Jun 14, 2020 4:16 pm

Well first of all sorry I haven't posted in a while. Work, family, other car stuff, teaching shooting classes all kinda came up at once. So Rattles had to take a back seat. Today My daughter and I worked on the valves. It's been a long time getting them right. Once again J&M Machine helped me out with getting them the correct length. Now I have plenty of adjustment up or down.
IMG_3533.jpeg


Here is a video of how the adjustments were made.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g9F7Hmx ... e=youtu.be

Something to consider. I've been using assembly lube on everything. The lifters require something a bit different. This stuff:
IMG_3538.jpeg
Angie used a q-tip and applied it to the lifters and cam lobes.
IMG_3532.jpeg
Next up is going to be the head gasket.
IMG_3539.jpeg
Then on to the transmission. That's going to be fun.


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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by Scott_Conger » Sun Jun 14, 2020 5:23 pm

Great to see the kids involved. :D
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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by RustyFords » Mon Jun 15, 2020 6:41 am

I’ve been following along and appreciate the updates.

Slow and steady wins the race.
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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by John Warren » Mon Jun 15, 2020 9:13 am

Looking good Robert. Thanks for the updates, I always love seeing progress. Great coverage,Thanks for sharing.
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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by Mopar_man » Mon Jun 15, 2020 9:58 pm

OK so tonight I put the head on. Here is some videos of what I did. Yes I forgot to put the anti-seize on the bolts so I took them all out and put it on.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p220qHzTJRw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v8jDPK0 ... e=youtu.be

Using the torque wrench for the first time. We did 20 then 30 then 55 pounds per the book.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VPlJNWv ... e=youtu.be
IMG_3547.jpeg
All done. That was easy with the engine out of the car. Ha!!

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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by Mopar_man » Sun Jun 21, 2020 6:32 pm

Well yesterday if you saw my other post you saw that I got the oil sump area cleaned on the pan. Today I was able to get the gas tank in.
First I put on the new terminal block and wires.
IMG_3555.jpeg
IMG_3556.jpeg
The tank went in easy without the engine, pedals, dash board, steering column, or interior in the car. I put it in and my daughter in the front to add the washers and nuts.
IMG_3557.jpeg
IMG_3558.jpeg
I think this is the data tag that has all the Pat info on it. Looks like it got painted over. Am I right?
IMG_3554.jpeg

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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by Mopar_man » Sun Jun 21, 2020 6:33 pm

I was also able to paint the back of the dash. It had a bit of rust on it and although you will never see it I sanded it and put a coat of paint on it.
IMG_3553.jpeg

Then we put the 4 Dip pan on. I'll paint it once it dries. I can only imagine having to do this with the engine in. How you can catch the threads on the two Horseshoe shaped metal straps that would move around seems to be impossible. You would think Ford would have welded them in place.
IMG_3562.jpeg


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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by Scott_Conger » Sun Jun 21, 2020 6:44 pm

Robert

you install 3 short pieces of 5/16 all-thread into each horseshoe. You can install the bottom cover with the engine horizontal in the car or vertical on an engine stand. Once a couple cap screws have caught some threads, the all-thread is removed and saved for next time. Makes the job very easy.
Last edited by Scott_Conger on Sun Jun 21, 2020 7:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by Mopar_man » Sun Jun 21, 2020 6:58 pm

Wow I never thought of that. That would work. Brilliant!


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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by Scott_Conger » Sun Jun 21, 2020 7:07 pm

If I gave you my wife's email address, would you share that sentiment with her? :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by Mopar_man » Sun Jun 21, 2020 10:42 pm

Ha!!! You can quote me.

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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by Mopar_man » Thu Jun 25, 2020 7:56 pm

So today this gem came in the mail. I have a "fun Projects" kit for mine that I'll do later. For now this one will be a great addition.

Thanks to Jeepbone1 for the nice work if anyone else has an opportunity to buy from him I suggest you take advantage of his good work.
IMG_3564.jpeg
IMG_3565.jpeg
IMG_3567.jpeg

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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by Mopar_man » Mon Jun 29, 2020 8:00 am

Well I finally got around to working on the GAP for the Mag Ring. Most of the day Saturday was spent on getting two of our other cars back on the road. Some Fuel filters got them right and I was able to work on the T. I read the article in the MTFCA Magazine and thought I'd give it a try. This is a video of the first part. I had to use a rubber mallet to get the shaft on the two small pins of the flywheel.

First you have to put the Mag ring on with the bolts real loose. Then install the flywheel and tighten the blots all the way. At this point the Mag Ring will stick to the magnets creating a big gap under it. Take a measurement there and subtract the GAP you want .025 and then shim the rest of the GAP.

We will see how many times I have to do this to get it right. Ha!!!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KZFzOts ... e=youtu.be

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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by Mopar_man » Mon Jun 29, 2020 9:40 pm

So after work tonight I took some measurements from behind the MAG Ring. I made sure I had the 4 blots tight from the crank to the flywheel. I made a drawing of the measurements then I subtracted the Gap I wanted. I went with .025. I am open to discussion as to how big it should be. I figure .025 would allow the trans to sag a bit and make the Gap on the top a bit bigger. The book says .025 to .040.

Here is what I got with my measurements. Remember The flywheel magnets have been surfaced so my initial Gap was a bit big.
IMG_3586.jpeg
So you can see the size of my shims I need to add. #1= .045, #2= .053, #3= .055, and #4= .055. As John from J&M Machine said "That's a good start." Ha!! I think I'll be taking this off and on a few more times.

Also I hope I didn't make a mistake by installing the valves and head. I've been careful turning the engine over by grabbing the flywheel. I haven't had to force anything so I'm hoping I didn't ruin the valves after all I went through to get them right.

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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by Mopar_man » Tue Jun 30, 2020 10:11 pm

OK. So tonight I shimmed the Mag ring in accordance with my measurements from yesterday. I was able to cut the shims by heating them up and then splitting them with a razor blade. Yes just like buttered bread when you drop one they land sticky side down.
IMG_3587.jpeg
After I attached the flywheel I took my first measurements with the engine on it's nose. Here is what I got.
IMG_3588.jpeg
I think I'll take away some shims and increase the gap at the top of the mag ring.


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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by Scott_Conger » Tue Jun 30, 2020 10:37 pm

for itteration #2, that's looking darn good...myself, I will never install another mag ring that wasn't surface ground...what a difference in the consistency of your numbers...sweet.
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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by Mopar_man » Tue Jun 30, 2020 10:59 pm

Thanks Scott. I was wondering if the measurements of .042 would be too much. I'm thinking that when the engine is in in the correct way it will sag a bit and close up the gap a bit.


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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by Scott_Conger » Tue Jun 30, 2020 11:02 pm

don't misunderstand...I mean for 2nd shot at it...I'm not saying you're done...you have the book and the numbers...it's up to you to decide when you're done
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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by Mopar_man » Tue Jun 30, 2020 11:15 pm

Oh I know. I'm going to try to shave a bit more off the shims under the #1 and #2 area and see if I can increase the gap at the top and close it up at the #9 to #13. Sorry had to rethink this and fix my numbers. Ha!! :lol:

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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by Mopar_man » Wed Jul 01, 2020 6:40 pm

OK. I know I need some advice. When I bought my Mag Ring they didn't have any surfaced ones in stock and said the people that do them for Lang's wouldn't have them for a while. I tried to get the gap correct however I have one side that is producing a larger than .040 gap. If I remove some shimming material I'm thinking that that will only make the gap bigger. Or do I have that wrong? I tried adding some to one side but the gap under the shims becomes way too small. Does anyone suffice Mag Rings that I can send this one to? I also nicked the sealant in one area. Is that ok? I know this is a right of passage. :lol: :lol: But could someone chime in and help.


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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by Scott_Conger » Wed Jul 01, 2020 7:02 pm

removing .002 from 1 and 3 area will open that gap around the 2:00 area up and SHOULD reduce bottom 8"00 area a little and you would be golden.
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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by Mopar_man » Wed Jul 01, 2020 7:33 pm

Thanks Scott I'll give it a try!!!

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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by Mopar_man » Tue Sep 15, 2020 4:49 pm

Still playing with shims. Almost there!
B1507325-DC84-4238-B3DD-D058FA8C025B.jpeg
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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by Mark Nunn » Thu Sep 17, 2020 4:51 pm

Robert, what paint did you use on your engine? My engine came to me painted the same color. I have a new head for it and I'm looking for a close match to the block.

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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by Mopar_man » Wed Sep 23, 2020 7:19 pm

I used the Ford Green that Lang’s sells. Seems to cover well. Not sure how it will hold up to the heat. Time will tell.

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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by Mopar_man » Wed Sep 23, 2020 7:23 pm

So tonight I was able to clean up the headlight bar. I put a straight edge on it to get me in the ball park of adjusting the headlights.
C8D06EC5-0866-47BA-810F-64CA6F9F255E.jpeg
I always enjoy finding the Ford script on everything.


I also got this apart. Had to cut the nut off. It was so bad it was round.
3991F8D6-AAF4-4A3A-838E-8D78FBA58D47.jpeg
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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by RustyFords » Thu Sep 24, 2020 12:39 pm

Mopar_man wrote:
Wed Sep 23, 2020 7:23 pm
I always enjoy finding the Ford script on everything.
I do too. It's like finding an Easter egg.
1924 Touring

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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by Mopar_man » Mon Oct 19, 2020 7:09 pm

So today some stuff from Lang’s came in.
I got all the windshield rubber. Ball bearing pulley, fan shaft and nut. 4 headlight bulbs so I have spares, washer felt, in line fuse, 1926 engine support straps (already have the pan brackets.

Also sent my mag ring out to J&M Machine. They were able to true it up for me. So I’m hoping it goes together a bit easier.
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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by RustyFords » Wed Oct 21, 2020 4:23 pm

That ball-bearing pulley is a good piece....been using one on my car since I got it running.
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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by Mopar_man » Wed Oct 21, 2020 8:54 pm

Seems like I'm going to have to chuck up the shaft bolt in my drill press and sand it dow a bit to fit. Di you have to do that to yours?

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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by RustyFords » Thu Oct 22, 2020 9:56 am

Mopar_man wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 8:54 pm
Seems like I'm going to have to chuck up the shaft bolt in my drill press and sand it dow a bit to fit. Di you have to do that to yours?
No....mine fit, out of the box.
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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by Mopar_man » Tue Oct 27, 2020 8:53 pm

So I decided to put together my water inlet. I posted some separate questions to make sure I'm doing it right. Specifically the washer that comes with the pulley. I think I know where it goes now. Anyway here are some pictures of what I did. A word of caution. I had to put the main bolt in a drill press and sand about 1000th off with 400 and then 600 sandpaper. Then polish it up with 0000 steal wool.

Here is a video I did of how it goes together.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TS0euvUiIHE
IMG_3844.jpeg
You can see here that the bolt doesn't fit the bearing.
IMG_3843.jpeg
Here is the exploded view.
IMG_3845.jpeg

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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by Mopar_man » Thu Oct 29, 2020 9:46 pm

IMG_3849.jpeg
OK I know what you are all thinking. What the heck is this guy doing now. John and Mike from J&M Machine try not to laugh too hard at me.

So let me explain. I'm trying to get rid of any variations that I can.

1st I made a mark on the crank and the flywheel so I know I'm putting it on the same way every time. The pins are going in the same holes. All 4 bolts go on as well to hold the flywheel to the crank and are tightened.

2nd I put an arrow pointing to the magnet that allows me to line it up over the same part of the mag ring.

3rd I got some roofing flashing that is the gap I want the magnets to be from the mag ring.

4th I put the mag ring on loosely and allowed the mag ring to stick to the magnets creating a gap where the bolts are that hold the mag ring on. To make sure that it was even all the way around I clamped it.

Now I just need to measure the gap under the bolts that hold the mag ring on and put the correct shims in.

I know maybe I'm overthinking this.


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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by dhosh » Thu Oct 29, 2020 9:55 pm

But.... But ......but.... It won't be Rattles any more!!
'24 RPU
Petoskey, Mi

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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by Mopar_man » Thu Oct 29, 2020 10:18 pm

Not to worry. There will be plenty to rattle in the future. Ha!! :lol: :lol: :lol:


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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by big2bird » Fri Oct 30, 2020 6:41 am

Mopar_man wrote:
Thu Oct 29, 2020 9:46 pm


3rd I got some roofing flashing that is the gap I want the magnets to be from the mag ring.

You want to use non magnetic material for that, such as brass or aluminum.

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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by Mopar_man » Fri Oct 30, 2020 2:09 pm

It's aluminum.

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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by Mopar_man » Thu Nov 05, 2020 9:20 pm

So tonight I Shimmed the recently surfaced Mag Ring and I think I've got it.
IMG_3861.jpeg
Making sure that they lobes of the shims are not going to get in the way of the felt seal.

Here is a video showing how I bolted it together and how the oil line goes in.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1N5y4unrqKQ


This is how my Gap came out.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DRZdu-u37o8

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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by Mopar_man » Wed Nov 11, 2020 7:07 pm

So tonight I did a bit of organizing of parts. Hope I remember where all this goes.
IMG_4007.jpeg
I also took off my hood shelves and cleaned them up. Had to use a dolly and hammer to straighten some of the holes.
IMG_4006.jpeg
Now I need a bit of help. I was able to ID all my parts and labeled everything except these two gaskets. Where do they go?
IMG_4008.jpeg
Last edited by Mopar_man on Tue Feb 16, 2021 10:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.


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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by Dallas Landers » Wed Nov 11, 2020 7:27 pm

Top is mag pickup. Still thinking on the lower one


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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by Dallas Landers » Wed Nov 11, 2020 7:32 pm

Lower one could be gas cap gasket

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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by Mopar_man » Sun Nov 15, 2020 9:15 pm

Well today I took apart the timer to clean it up. I didn't bead blast the contacts just the body of the timer and the studs and nuts.
IMG_4009.jpeg
IMG_4010.jpeg

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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by Mopar_man » Sun Nov 29, 2020 5:33 pm

So sometimes you have to do a little bit on your T for a "well that looks good" moment. Today I installed the tail light. I know it's an easy thing but it looks good. Ha!!
IMG_4025.jpeg
I also painted these as well as grinder off the markings on the bolts and painted them as well.
IMG_4026.jpeg
This was a big step I know the guys from J&M are saying what the heck is taking him so long!!! So today I also timed the triple gears. I used the U mark and went every 9th tooth.
IMG_4028.jpeg


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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by tommyleea » Fri Dec 11, 2020 3:42 pm

Robert, I see your transmission selfie on page 1. I am at that point. How did you lift the flywheel/transmission assembly off the engine? I have some ideas, but they are kind of scary. Thanks for advise and great job. Tommy


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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by 2nighthawks » Fri Dec 11, 2020 5:33 pm

Robert G. - First of all, thanks so much for documenting all of your (and daughters) work with write-up and great photos! Have been following, and as such, been wondering if you ever obtained what you might consider a suitable valve spring compressor, as you apparently did not care for the one you'd been using. (???)

The reason I asked is because over the years, I have managed to "acquire" quite a collection of various type valve spring compressors for Model T & Model A valve work, and I've NEVER yet found one that wasn't pretty difficult and awkward to work with. Also, I've never really decided whether I prefer the modern style valves and split conical type keepers or if it's better to stick with the original Ford type keepers with the little pins. (???) Seems as tho' there advantages and disadvantages with each, right?

Again, thanks so much for documenting and sharing with photos of all the work,.....harold

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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by Mopar_man » Fri Dec 11, 2020 10:42 pm

Tommyleea I just picked it up. It's about 85 pounds. When I was adjusting the gap I only had the flywheel on and off. I have seen some here with chains picking it up. Probably not the safest way to do it.

Harold. Nope like you I haven't had been able to find one that worked easy. I used the Ford type valves. If you use adjustable lifters you will have to have the valve stems ground down. You can't do that so well with the valve retaining keepers. The pin keeper has more stem that you can grind down.

I posted this story in the off topic side before. Angie is my 15 year old daughter. Watch those springs!

So we are putting in the valves on the Model T. The spring compressor kept falling off the spring and I decided to compress the spring with my hands with my arms around Angie's head so she could see where to put the pin in to hold the spring. Then she calmly says: "So what are we going to tell the emergency room Doctor?"

This link has some good info as well.

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=17104&p=129405#p129405


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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by 2nighthawks » Sat Dec 12, 2020 12:06 am

Robert G. - Thanks for the reply,....I think that more modern valve spring compressor that Steve Jelf showed (....that he paid $2 for) is actually designed for doing valve work on modern overhead valves with the head(s) off of the engine just might work well,....and I gotta' admit,....I never really thought to try one of those! Just might work well on Model T's and Model A's, huh?

Excuse me for cluttering up this wonderful speedster build thread here Robert, but the comment your daughter made not only made me laugh, but reminded me of an "experience" my Dad and I had one day when I was helping him with something when I was a kid, maybe I was a couple years younger than your daughter. At least 70 years ago now, but BOY! ....do I ever remember it well!

Dad used to make beautiful table lamps out of tall cypress knees, and because the lamps were quite tall, for counter weight, he would drill several large holes in the bottom and fill them with molten lead that he melted from lead scraps, and wheel balance weights and other scrap lead he could find. The first couple of these lamps that he made, he would have me hold the lamp upside down, while he poured the molten lead into the holes. (....Dads' "little helper", right?) One time, he accidentally poured a bit of the molten lead too near the edge of the hole, and it ran over to the side of the lamp base and down to my hand. Of course as he was very focused on the pouring of the lead, he didn't realize that a bit of the lead burned my hand, and he hollered at me,...."HOLD IT STILL"! It wasn't until a moment later that he realized what had happened and why I had "trouble" holding it still!

Many years later, my Dad (by then, a grandfather to my four boys) and I were "reminiscing" and talking about that incident, and he told me,..."You know, of all the dumb things I've ever done, that was one of the all-time dumbest!" Dad said he never felt so bad about anything involving me as he did about that nickel-sized blister on my hand that resulted from that, and he said something like,...."I think that was the maddest your Mom ever was at me", and she'd said to me, "what on earth ever possessed you do something as dumb as that?"
Dad told me,...."you know, I really had absolutely no answer for that, and it really was a stupid thing for me to have asked you to do!"

Again, sorry to "clutter up" this wonderful speedster thread with this Robert, but your daughter's comment reminded me of this and I just couldn't resist telling you about it. And really, it is true that while it really is nice when we can include our kids in our hobby, one really has to be careful, and if somebody has to get hurt, it had better be "the ol' man, right?

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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by Mopar_man » Sat Dec 12, 2020 9:31 pm

Harold,
Fun story. I alway think it's a good idea to get kids involved even if it's a bit dangerous. You must have been a tough kid to still be holding that lamp. By the way This is a touring. Not a speedster. Although I still need to add a lot of stuff. Ha!!


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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by 2nighthawks » Sun Dec 13, 2020 2:45 am

Robert:
Oops! Brain fog! I knew that the "T" that you and your daughter were (and are) working on was a touring, but I guess I had just been reading several speedster posts on the internet and here on the forum,...sorry,.....harold

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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by Mopar_man » Sun Dec 13, 2020 10:21 am

Harold,
Best part of this forum is all the reading. So much fun.

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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by Mopar_man » Sun Dec 13, 2020 6:38 pm

A bit of progress. My first safety wire job. Now for the Flywheel bolts!!
IMG_4039.jpeg
IMG_4041.jpeg

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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by Mopar_man » Mon Dec 21, 2020 6:56 pm

Well I got an e-mail from John at J&M Machine. He looked at my safety wire job and pointed out that the wire should be twisted as close to the bolt as possible. so I took it apart and did it over. I can't say enough about J&M. They are always checking up and making sure that I'm not making mistakes.
IMG_4054.jpeg
IMG_4055.jpeg

So this is what happens when you think that you are just going to do something simple. I thought, Let me put the Pac Nut on the pipe so it will be ready to go the I install the engine. Seemed like an easy job. Then I couldn't take the pipe out of the muffler. So I got under the car and saw that the muffler was all loose and the whole thing had to come out. Then I tried to separate the pipe and couldn't do that. I'm going to have to now move one of my other cars and and put the pipe in the pipe vise to get it apart. Well it least I know how it all goes together.
IMG_4053.jpeg

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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by Mopar_man » Tue Dec 22, 2020 10:06 pm

Well tonight I got the Pac Nut on the pipe and put the muffler back together and on the car. I was happy to find no rust anywhere. Still at it a little at a time.

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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by Mopar_man » Sat Jan 02, 2021 2:46 pm

Well today I was able to get out to the garage and put the drums on. You can see that here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H4UeV94 ... e=youtu.be

However when banging on the clutch cup I went a bit too far and I have to get a puller to get it off. I needed one anyway because if the endplay is wrong with the 3 washers that are there (my luck say that it won't be correct) I need to take it off anyway.

Today I also safety wired the Flywheel to the crank. I know it's going slow but it will get there.

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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by Mopar_man » Sun Jan 03, 2021 1:05 pm

I was able to pull the clutch cup up a fraction and the blot went in. I then tried to pull the drums up and down to see if I had any measurable endplay. The drums wouldn't move at all. I put my dial indicator on the inside of the brake drum (for fun) and the needle move about .001 thousandth with me pulling on it. Not sure if I should have pried on the whole drum assembly to check for endplay movement. So I have to buy some thiner washers. Each of my washers (3) are .042 thousandths. Lang's sells a .025 washer. By the way this a a 26/7 transmission.

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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by Mopar_man » Wed Jan 13, 2021 8:22 pm

Well I had a small victory tonight. I was able to put the clutch cup on and have the correct distance. I used two .042 and one .025 washers and was able to get a .016/7 gap. The book say it should be .015 to .022. This was with me just pulling up on it. If I got a small pry-bar in there I bet it would be a bit more. I put the dial indicator on a lug on the brake drum. Here is a video of the measurement.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J4LYDdIR4sI

Here is the setup.
IMG_4100.jpeg
Then I put the key in and made sure it was flat agent the cup.
IMG_4102.jpeg
I also painted the oil pan blots. I forgot to do that the last time.
IMG_4090.jpeg

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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by Mopar_man » Sun Jan 17, 2021 2:58 pm

Well i got the clutches in. I'm using a Jack Rabbit Clutch set. So The first thing I did was soak the clutches in oil for two days then I scuffed up the new large disks. I stacked them as the directions said.
IMG_4110.jpeg
IMG_4111.jpeg
Now I just have to compress the spring and then bolt on the Clutch plate. The directions said that you may have to use another large disk if you have some wear. I'm hoping since everything is new it should be ok.
IMG_4112.jpeg


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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by NealW » Sun Jan 17, 2021 5:13 pm

Now will come the fun part of shimming the Mag ring. I'm going to try the method that was described in the MTFCA Magazine.
Robert,

Which issue of the MTFCA magazine described this method?

Thanks,

Neal

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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by Mopar_man » Sun Jan 17, 2021 7:59 pm

Neal This was the issue.
IMG_4113.jpeg
IMG_4116.jpeg
IMG_4115.jpeg

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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by Mopar_man » Thu Feb 04, 2021 7:38 pm

Well tonight we wired up the switch for my 26 touring. I did find the the contacts on the reproduction wiring harness were a bit big. So I used a larger lock washer. How did my daughter do?
IMG_4143.jpeg
IMG_4144.jpeg

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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by Mopar_man » Fri Feb 05, 2021 6:05 pm

Well tonight after work I got the drive plate and Clutch spring on.
IMG_4146.jpeg
Now don't make fun of my spring compressor. It worked!
IMG_4148.jpeg
IMG_4150.jpeg

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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by Mopar_man » Sun Feb 14, 2021 7:57 pm

So first off I have to say that I know this is taking me a lot longer than most. Sorry for that. Today I just put the Bands on and wired up the dash harness.
IMG_4162.jpeg
IMG_4163.jpeg

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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by John Warren » Mon Feb 15, 2021 4:04 pm

Robert, I am enjoying your thread and very glad to see your Daughter involved. It will be just as exciting for her when Rattles, Rattles again! Looking good and keep us posted.
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Keep it simple and keep a good junk pile if you want to invent something :P

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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by RustyFords » Sat Feb 20, 2021 5:22 pm

John Warren wrote:
Mon Feb 15, 2021 4:04 pm
Robert, I am enjoying your thread and very glad to see your Daughter involved. It will be just as exciting for her when Rattles, Rattles again! Looking good and keep us posted.
Ditto.

I love your build thread and follow it closely. I should comment more. Keep up the good work.
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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by Mopar_man » Wed Mar 03, 2021 8:54 pm

So tonight I decided to take apart my steering column. The springs were missing on the adjustment rods. The rivets are missing and the gear cover is stuck.
IMG_4172.jpeg
IMG_4173.jpeg
IMG_4176.jpeg
So then I cleaned up some of the parts with mineral spirits and put them in the blast cabinet.
IMG_4175.jpeg
IMG_4177.jpeg

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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by Henry K. Lee » Wed Mar 03, 2021 9:21 pm

Very nice thread Robert, You are making life time memories and a bond with your daughter.

All the Best,

Hank

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