...Bad Ford-BAD FORD!!!!!

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Cigarboxrob
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...Bad Ford-BAD FORD!!!!!

Post by Cigarboxrob » Wed Jan 15, 2020 9:31 pm

...The Model T began to sputter and die...Could it be a bad ignition switch? Going to magneto yielded no results.

“...C’mon, little fella!!!!” I pleaded. “If you’re good and we make it home, I’ll get ya a nice treat!”

...My girlfriend was not amused; “BABE!!!!” She pointed-“I think it’s giving you the MIDDLE PEDAL!!!!”

...I was not amused. “Reverse me-REVERSE ME!!!! Well-REVERSE YOU, TOO!!”

I threatened a bar of soap in the exhaust for such a foul gesture-I meant it this time. It’s one thing if you leave me stranded; It’s another thing if you leave me stranded listening to the whining and howling of the elements-In this case? She was sitting right next to me. Thankfully, it wasn’t cold and windy-But there is a *major* difference between the Model T and my girlfriend: Eventually? I’ll figure out the Model T.

“Babe!!!!! I grabbed the tool kit from your old MG and I threw it under the back seat!!!! Maybe we can use something.”

“Great thinking!” (I had a *tool kit* for my MG? I had forgotten.)

“Babe-Why does it only have a hammer and an old condom in it?” (I suddenly remembered my old: “British Car Humor.”)

“We’ll just have to push it to the side of the road and walk home.”

“....Baaaaaaabe....!”

“It’s okay-You can make it. We’re two blocks away.”

After a harrowing two blocks of nagging, I remembered the jingle on the radio: “You don’t have to be lone-ly....At Model-T-On-ly-Dot-Com.”

Regardless, I returned to the proverbial: “Scene of the crime.” An attempt to start? Nuttin.’

This time, however, I came prepared with real tools.

Spark? Check. Fuel?

....Fuel?

“...Bueller? Bueller? Anyone?”

No fuel.

I went through my checklist and worked backwards-Finally, I unscrewed the bottom of the sediment bulb. A *Glob* of reddish rust and gasoline dumped into my open palm. I stared at my Model T.

“Almost 100-And you’re *STILL* not potty-trained? Gross!”

A few repeated switches of the fuel valve on the sediment bulb and eventually, I got some pure, clean gasoline. I screwed the bottom of the bulb back on and lifted the crank-Houston? We have ignition!

...For another block. Remembering an old trick, I threw a magnet under the gas tank. The car re-started; Only it would only drive *north to south;* I needed to go *west to east.* All seemed hopeless. At that moment? I cursed and wished I had a good horse instead.

...My neighbor, seeing my unfortunate plight, took pity and did what *anyone* in my neighborhood would do-He pointed and laughed.

I was finally able to coax the Model T home with the promise of introducing it to the sexy Model A a few blocks away-I told it I had her digits-All four of them-And would pass the candlestick phone when we got home. That seemed to do the trick. Realizing it had been ‘duped,’ I got a few obscene “Blats” from the horn-None of which I can repeat in polite company. The Model T was sent to its room with no supper.

....Hopefully, I made a few of you chuckle; So, with a full tank of gas, I have rust build up strangling the fuel flow. I’ll need to drain the tank. Since I’m full to the brim, this will be a siphon/drain job and several gas cans. Knowing what I’m up against, can anyone recommend a good source to have this tank done *right* in the South Jersey area? It’s a ‘26, so to my knowledge, repros don’t exist. Thanks in advance!
Last edited by Cigarboxrob on Wed Jan 15, 2020 9:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Steve Jelf
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Re: ...Bad Ford-BAD FORD!!!!!

Post by Steve Jelf » Wed Jan 15, 2020 9:49 pm

LIKE.jpg
:D
The inevitable often happens.
1915 Runabout
1923 Touring

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Oldav8tor
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Re: ...Bad Ford-BAD FORD!!!!!

Post by Oldav8tor » Wed Jan 15, 2020 9:50 pm

You're a good writer.... you should keep us supplied with the "Adventures of Bob and his T(Rusty) Model T and former girlfriend."

I had a original 1917 round tank that had varnish from old gas and rust in it. I purchased a PQR 15 kit and followed directions to clean and coat the inside with a epoxy-like material. I also installed a finger screen on the gascolator that protrudes up into the tank to insure fuel flow.

In 1600 miles I've had no fuel problems and if I drain the carburetor bowl the fuel comes out clean. Cleaning and coating the tank is a bit of work, but worth it.

Alternatively, I've heard of some guys taking their tanks to a radiator shop to have them cleaned but you'll still need to coat the inside.

------In general, you obviously know that mechanical problems go hand in hand with Model T ownership. In my brief time in the hobby I already have the space under the back seat of my touring filled with tools, spare parts, oil, coolant and some rain ponchos. As I tell people, "Model T's are a step back in time that leaves you covered in grime....." Enjoy!
1917 Touring
1946 Aeronca Champ
1952 Willys M38a1 Jeep
1953 Ford Jubilee Tractor


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Re: ...Bad Ford-BAD FORD!!!!!

Post by Wayne Sheldon » Wed Jan 15, 2020 10:02 pm

I think you are getting the hang of life with model Ts!

Antique automobiles in general, and model Ts in particular, as a hobby is not for everyone. One must be able to put in the efforts, and be slapped in the face. Persevere in getting the car ready for the "Big Tour" with the national or regional club, only to break the crankshaft the day before the tour starts. And shrug it off. Grumble for a day, then laugh,and get busy fixing the new problem. It happens to everyone in this hobby. And, you have had more than your fair share at the beginning. Just know, the rewards are incredible. Some day, you will limp a broken down model T in at the end of the tour's day, and KNOW that you beat it! And the model T will reward you with understanding, and connections to history, like nothing else can.


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Re: ...Bad Ford-BAD FORD!!!!!

Post by Dave Young » Wed Jan 15, 2020 10:19 pm

Rob. Removing that tank from a ‘26 is a surprisingly challenging task. At this point, anything that you can do toward cleaning the tank in place will be time well spent. I would remove all of the gas and then remove the entire sediment bowl assembly from the tank. It’s either a 3/8”or 1/2” pipe thread, so that gives you a pretty big drain hole. Put a garden hose in that joker and let it flush for a while, right out that drain hole. Next, rig up some pipe fittings and a 1/2” ball valve to make a shutoff in that drain hole.

Go to Walmart and buy this crap for cleaning toilet bowls called “The Works Basic”. It’s Hydrochloric Acid. Get about 4 gallons of it. Pour that into the tank and fill it the rest of the way up with water. Don’t spill any on your paint. Shake the car. Let that sit for 2 days. Rig up a hose to the ball valve and drain it out. Do a few rinses with a garden hose. Pour a half a gallon of diesel fuel in there and then stick an air nozzle made from a 2’ section of 1/4” copper tube in and blast that fuel all over the inside of the tank to stop it from flash rusting. Drain that out. Fill it with gas and hopefully you’re done with the clogged fuel supply issue. Your goal is to have fuel move to the carburetor.

Fixing a leaking tank is a whole different story. The only option there is to take the tank up to Gas Tank Renu at Finger’s Radiator Shop up in North Brunswick. Difficult and costly.


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Re: ...Bad Ford-BAD FORD!!!!!

Post by Cigarboxrob » Wed Jan 15, 2020 10:33 pm

“Dr. Dave!”

...When my Grandpa had the junkyard in East Brunswick, Fingers did our Bentley’s radiator! His work was *Awesome* back then! As you know? I’m between jobs at the moment, so it’s out of the question...But? If I visit the area, if you need any tasty Russian fare like kielbasa? Let me know what you’d like me to bring you from European Homemade Provisions!

Meanwhile, this seems like a: “Man versus Walmart-For the *Love of T’s* challenge.” Challenge accepted! You and Scott have been *saviors* in my “T” situation-And I can’t thank you enough for your continued support and help! In all sincerity, I was defrauded and a few months later? You and Scott turned “Horrible” into: “Wonderful.” I cannot express my gratitude enough....To those new to the forum? There is an *amazing* amount of support and a wealth of resources available here!


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Re: ...Bad Ford-BAD FORD!!!!!

Post by Dave Young » Thu Jan 16, 2020 7:20 am

One step that I failed to mention is doing a baking soda rinse of the the inside of the tank before doing the diesel fuel. That will neutralize the remaining acid. Also, drain the first acid mixture into a trash can with a plastic bag in it. Pour baking soda into that too. Once it’s neutralized, it’s safe to dump on the ground. Good luck!


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Re: ...Bad Ford-BAD FORD!!!!!

Post by It's Bill » Thu Jan 16, 2020 8:27 am

In Ambler, just to the north of Philly, GT Radiator works on our old stuff and does a great job. Ask for Junior. Cheers, Bill


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Re: ...Bad Ford-BAD FORD!!!!!

Post by Dave Young » Thu Jan 16, 2020 10:55 am

Thanks, Bill. Good to know of another gas tank shop and that's a lot closer for me than North Brunswick is.


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Re: ...Bad Ford-BAD FORD!!!!!

Post by mtntee20 » Thu Jan 16, 2020 11:04 am

Rob,

I understand what Dave is saying about removing the tank. But, to "solve" the problem long term, you will need to coat the inside of the tank. That requires the removal of the tank.

Rust needs three things to occur: ferrous metal (steel/iron), water, and oxygen. Even tanks that are kept out of the weather will acquire moisture in them. When the tank is less than completely full, temperature change will cause air to move into or out of the tank due to expansion/contraction. Moisture in that air will condense on the inside upper portions of the tank and fall to the bottom combining with oxygen will rust the tank. Thus a sealer is needed.

If you choose not to use a sealer, your best practices are: Keep the tank full whenever the vehicle is parked. This will minimize the air into/out of the tank and thus the amount of moisture getting into the tank. Drain the sediment bulb every time you fill up. Ethanol gas is a problem. The ethanol will absorb the moisture and lay in the bottom of the tank causing rust. Even the galvanized fuel tanks in vehicles today are rusting out due to ethanol/water accumulation. You can get ethanol free gas which reduces the moisture problems.

There are several tank sealants on the market. Some of the best are POR 15, Red Kote, and Caswell. Reviews have pretty well placed Caswell at the top of the list. There are very few negative comments about Caswell and I believe most of these can be traced to the user NOT following the procedure set by Caswell.

Thank you for the great story. Many smiles this morning. Best morning I've had in a LONG time.

Good Luck,
Terry

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Re: ...Bad Ford-BAD FORD!!!!!

Post by Duey_C » Fri Jan 17, 2020 7:32 pm

Rob, you have a Bentley and yet are between jobs. This does not compute... :lol:
Fun story! Did your lady friend forgive yet?
I like Dave's notions and not to start arguments, if you go that route with the Diesel rinse after cleaning and neutralizing, would you add a little two cycle oil mixed in the Diesel? 5 to 10% is all.
I suggest this as I had a transmission part for an OT I placed in a coffee can of clean Diesel for a month to clean the grease out of a large ball bearing on the shaft for inspection.
That month later I found the submerged ball bearing had a fine coat of rust on the upper surface. Granted/thankfully, the rust came off with a toothbrush but it further cemented my distrust about Diesel = no rust. A feeling I have had for many years but dispelled by this and another OT Diesel project. :)
Since I lost my mind mind, I feel more liberated


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Re: ...Bad Ford-BAD FORD!!!!!

Post by mtntee20 » Fri Jan 17, 2020 9:17 pm

Duey_C's comment about 2 cycle oil is a good one. Not only for right after you clean your tank but also ALL the time.

Keep in mind; gasoline will dissolve oil products such as diesel and then you're back to square one. 2 cycle oil is designed to be dissolved in gasoline and lubricate under those conditions. Thus, it will provide "some" protection from rust in the tank. How much? I do not know. Sealing the metal from moisture contact is the best "long term" solution other than having the tank galvanized inside and out.

Good Luck,
Terry


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Re: ...Bad Ford-BAD FORD!!!!!

Post by Mike Royster » Sat Jan 18, 2020 10:55 am

If you decide to do it yourself I can tell you I have had great success with gas tanks from cars and hit-and-miss engines by doing the following.

1. Wash the gas tank out thoroughly.

2. Fill the tanks with distilled white vinegar and let it sit. Over a period of days all the rust will be cut loose. You can save the vinegar, wash out the tank and examine how good it looks or if it need another treatment. If it needs another dose just strain the vinegar and pour it back in.

3. Once clean, wash the tank thoroughly then empty a box of baking soda in the tank and fill with water. The soda will neutralize the vinegar and stop the "cleaning" effect.

4. Once your tank is thoroughly dry we use a product called Kwik Poly, a two part epoxy made for this application. If your tank has baffles it is harder to do, but it will work. It is really important that you have the tank set up where you can spin it immediately after pouring the epoxy in, as it dries pretty quickly.

I have been using it over 20 years with great results and no failures.

Mike


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Re: ...Bad Ford-BAD FORD!!!!!

Post by Dave Young » Sat Jan 18, 2020 5:30 pm

The main reason that I do the diesel fuel rinse is to push any remaining water droplets out of the tank. Water is heavier than the fuel, so it will collect under it. A side benefit of slowing down the rust flash, temporarily, is just that. Pouring ATF or 2-stroke oil in with the fuel is even better! The key is to air-blast it around in there, since you are doing this without removing the tank. Once you get this car all sorted out and have her in a garage, by all means keep the topic of "fixing" this tank in mind as a future project. For now, she just needs to run dependably. Loose flakes of crap sloshing around in there reduce the likelihood of doing uneventful hundred miles drives at will. Unfortunately, I have to keep 80 pieces of equipment running on a daily basis and have seen a "thing-or-two", like in that commercial on TV.

If you ever blow a turbo gasket on a Cat engine in El Paso on a Saturday night, just find a beer can on the side of the road, make the gasket and it may just get you all the way to Vermont... and it did!


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Re: ...Bad Ford-BAD FORD!!!!!

Post by Steve Hughes » Sun Jan 19, 2020 4:13 pm

To Mike Royster: Unfortunately Kwik Poly is out of business and no longer being made. Sad day for the hobby. It had a number of uses that are not easily replaced with another product. I haven’t found anything to come close to replacing it.

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Re: ...Bad Ford-BAD FORD!!!!!

Post by TRDxB2 » Sun Jan 19, 2020 5:06 pm

Has anyone tried POR-15 fuel tank sealer and related products?
Here is a a buyers review with details on the steps he followed and pictures of the inside of the tank before and after
The same stuff I disliked about this product (this Tank Sealer sticks to EVERYTHING, and the preparation to use it takes patience and time) are the same things that make the results so spectacular! Yes, it takes a lot of time to do the prep (mostly clock time for things to soak), and yes the Tank Sealer is hard to remove from stuff (so wear gloves, cover the outside of the tank with painter's tape and plastic), but that means it seals your tank and you won't have to worry about it again.

The whole process consists of 3 or 4 steps. Step (1) is POR-15 Cleaner Degreaser (avail on Amazon) - removes any fuel varnish or other coatings from the inside of the tank. Step (2) is POR-15 Metal Prep (avail on Amazon) - removes rust, etches the metal for better adhesion of the Tank Sealer, and chemically adjust the pH of the surface, too. Each of these steps takes time, because you have to slosh the stuff around in the tank and then leave the tank in various positions to ensure that the "stuff" has time to work on the metal everywhere inside the tank. Then Step (3) is this stuff - the POR-15 Tank Sealer. This goes in and you spend a good while rotating the tank around slowly so this stuff will coat the entire surface of the inside of the tank. That took some finagling for me - because my tank has two drain pipes that run from up by the fuel filler neck to the bottom of the tank where they emerge near the fuel pump. So I built a special paint brush from a cheap 1" brush and a coat hanger so I could bend it into a shape to get to the pipes through the vacant fuel pump hole.

So what is the 4th step? Well, if you have a LOT of rust (see my first 2 pics, which is actually moderate rust), then Step (0) is to use Evapo-Rust to get it out. This takes time. I had my tank soaking with this stuff in it for 4 days, sloshing it around and leaving it in a different orientation every few hours to make sure every internal surface had its share of Evapo-Rust time.

So doing Step (0) took me four days. Yup, I let it really soak to get ALL the rust out. Then another day or so sloshing around doing Steps (1) and (2). Then you VERY CAREFULLY dry the tank (best to let it get toasty hot in the sunshine after you have dried it out initially). Then you do Step (3) - this POR-15 Tank Sealer. You do the same thing, you slosh it around in there until the entire inside surface is coated. Then you pour out the excess. I actually turned the tank upside down and used a spoon to get the extra paint out. Whatever method you use, don't leave any puddles of the Tank Sealer inside the tank. Then you leave it for 4 days! No Less! Make sure that stuff is completely cured before you put everything back together and put fuel in it. I spent about 11 or 12 calendar days (on and off, of course for soak time) from start to finish, and you can see the result in Picture #3! Couldn't be more pleased.

Some quick pointers:
1) Buy some Oatey or other pipe plugs to plug the tank holes. I used a conical rubber plug with a tightening screw in it for the fuel filler, and a cylindrical 2.5" pipe plug with a tightening screw for the fuel pump hole. Amazon has plenty of options, I am sure they have ones that will fit YOUR fuel tank.
2) Use painter's tape (not duct tape because it may pull paint off) and plastic sheeting to wrap your entire tank right up to the holes with the plugs. That way, any stray Tank Sealer won't get on the outside of the tank and mess up your paint job - which it will if you leave it for long.
3) Wear gloves, because this stuff sticks to your hands apparently just about as well as it sticks to the tank.
4) Do all the fluid changes and so forth OUTSIDE where you aren't going to make a mess inside your nice house or shop.
5) Don't rush it and make sure to follow the product's directions carefully - and you'll get great results
Attachments
TANK SEALER.jpg


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Re: ...Bad Ford-BAD FORD!!!!!

Post by Scott_Conger » Sun Jan 19, 2020 5:19 pm

I have used it and have reported results to the forum. It is GREAT stuff. I'd suggest that you buy the kit, and if the tank is really bad, buy an extra quart of the cleaner and extra gallon of the etch, separately. This will cover a larger area inside while processing, than a quart and will speed the process.

Last time I used it, I used it on a large, round Torpedo tank. It had been terribly rusted and previous to 40 years in a museum, someone had soldered a large copper patch to the outside and bondo'd over. Old fuel still in the tank, rust and goop hid all of this. Using the cleaner, and rotating the drum into 5 positions on the diameter and one time on each end, for 2 hours each, along with tumbling to coat the baffles, it cleaned very nicely.

Same thing with etch, 2 hour soak in each position and then thorough flush. Took 10 complete tank fillings before it ran clear and no foam appeared. In dry Wyoming, I let the tank dry for 4 days. A hydrometer set over the filler opening showed elevated humidity for 2 days and stable for 2 days.

Filled with sloshing material then drained for 3 hours and let sit to cure just off kilter of the drain cock...I did not want a puddle exactly at the hole. I let it cure for a week before putting in fuel.

Results were excellent.

You may or may not be able to understand the level of corruption that continually percolated out from "outside" the tank and the "inside of the huge patch, but it was considerable and the cleaner and etch converted every bit of it and the slosh flowed into, through and out of all of the myriad of lacy spiderweb of holes in the bottom.

I support the above mentioned use of the Oatey expanding plug for the filler and a PVC pipe plug for the drain. These are mandatory.
Scott Conger

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