Front Spring Width

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Banjoe
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Front Spring Width

Post by Banjoe » Sun Jan 19, 2020 9:15 am

Working on getting our 1927 Tudor ready for its 100th birthday and slowly working from front to back on a total restoration.

Sandblasted and powder coated the 8 leaf front springs but got a surprise when assembling them. Had new spring clips ready to install but they don't fit.

The clip clearance is 1 5/8" while the springs are 1 3/4" wide. The old bent, rusty clips have 1 3/4" clearance so fit nicely.

I haven't been able to figure out why these springs seem to be wider than standard. It is a Canadian model so perhaps that has something to do with it?

Any ideas why these are wider than standard size?

Many thanks,
Joe
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Re: Front Spring Width

Post by DanTreace » Sun Jan 19, 2020 10:56 am

The T front spring leafs are 1 1/4" wide. The rear spring leafs are 2" wide.


Could be the front spring set on your car are aftermarket? Lots of them were made by accessory companies.


Earlier post showing a front aftermarket spring for a T.

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Re: Front Spring Width

Post by Banjoe » Sun Jan 19, 2020 11:40 am

Dan,

Your link is making me think that this might be a Model A spring set.

Seems that the difference between the T & A (besides the width) is the location of the oiler. I will check that out to hopefully resolve the mystery.

Many thanks, Dan

Joe
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Re: Front Spring Width

Post by Mark Gregush » Sun Jan 19, 2020 11:50 am

"Sandblasted and powder coated the 8 leaf front springs but got a surprise when assembling them."
Powder coating the springs will add thickness to the springs, also will not let them move like they should. The powder coating will get gummy and not allow the leafs to slide as they should. Springs need to be bare metal to metal with grease or slip coat between the leafs then the whole pack assembled and painted as a unit. My suggestion would be to strip the powder coating off and start fresh.
Both my T's with original front springs, the leafs are just over 1-1/2" wide. What you might have is a Model A front spring that had been used, which would be wider. This would not be the first case. I worked on a car that had that happen. The channel in the front cross member is spread out some and A spring installed. They both have approx the same unsprung length. I do not think that this would be a Canadian vs American thing.
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Re: Front Spring Width

Post by Banjoe » Sun Jan 19, 2020 1:19 pm

Excellent points, Mark. I did follow up the powder coating by painting all the moving surfaces with graphite paint but you really have me pondering now.

Following up on the link that Dan provided, I think we have the answer.

I got the chance to check out the front and rear springs. The back set has oil holes at the shackle but the front springs have no such holes. I believe that this is telling us that this is a Model A front spring set.

Because this was assembled when I got this car, I'm now wondering what has been done to the frame to accommodate this wider spring set.

1 step forward, 1 sideways, and now 2 backwards .... but that's pretty normal for my work style.

Many thanks for this help, fellows,

Joe
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Re: Front Spring Width

Post by Allan » Tue Jan 21, 2020 1:45 am

As far as I know, model T front springs are 1.5" wide, rears 2.0" If a 1.75" wide spring fits in your frame cross member, there has been some serious work done, and the spring will be wider than the perch.

Allan from down under.

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Re: Front Spring Width

Post by DanTreace » Tue Jan 21, 2020 10:12 am

Allan

You are correct, I missed the front spring width in first reply.

The front T spring is 1 1/2” and rear is 2”.
4D0E47CF-73CE-49A7-BADD-44CDDA9BDAA6.jpeg
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Re: Front Spring Width

Post by Banjoe » Tue Jan 21, 2020 10:55 am

I now have a serious concern about what has been done to the frame to get this 1/4" wider spring in place. I recall that it was a bit of a battle to remove it so perhaps the backyard mechanic just jammed it into place and clamped it down.

I can't presently check the frame now as it's outdoors under a pile of snow, so I'll have to wait a bit to determine if there is a disaster or merely a bit of bad work that needs to be redone. Hopefully I can just replace the spring with the correct Model T assembly and move the rebuilt spring off to a needy Model A.
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Re: Front Spring Width

Post by henryford2 » Tue Jan 21, 2020 11:01 am

How is the "wider" spring mated to the narrower Model T spring perch without a 1/4" gap between the shackle and the perch? Or did I miss something in the post?

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Re: Front Spring Width

Post by Mark Gregush » Tue Jan 21, 2020 11:28 am

Model A front shackles are used. On the car I worked on that had an A front spring, washers were used to take up the space at the perch end.1/8" on each side. The shanks on the shackle has the same diameter both T and A. The front cross member will need to be worked back to the proper spacing for the T spring. It has to be spread out some to get the A spring in.
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Re: Front Spring Width

Post by Banjoe » Tue Jan 21, 2020 3:03 pm

The 1 3/4" Model A springs fitted to the 1 1/2" Model T perch would put the shackle plates on an angle if the 1/4" excess space wasn't filled in on the T side. Sounds like 1/8" washers would do it but proper fitting also requires Model A shackles to replace the shorter T shackles. There were definitely no spacing washers provided to make up for the width differences and I think they just used the original shackles to cobble this together. I'll do a some research to see if I can find the dimension of the A and T shackles.

I'm hoping that the frame hasn't been wonked out of shape and the T spring sizing can be restored in some manner. Any idea how this can be done and still have a solid, safe frame?

Joe
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Re: Front Spring Width

Post by flatbroke3 » Tue Jan 21, 2020 6:09 pm

banjoe, post a picture of the perch so we can see what maybe up with the front spring
Harold


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Re: Front Spring Width

Post by Banjoe » Tue Jan 21, 2020 8:11 pm

Hi Harold, I'll get to the workshop and take some photos of the perch to help illuminate the problem.

Should be able to get this sorted out tomorrow. ..... and thanks for that suggestion.
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Re: Front Spring Width

Post by Mark Gregush » Tue Jan 21, 2020 9:17 pm

We may have put the spacers to the rear on the perch, it has been a while. Next time you see the "Silver Streak" take a look.
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Re: Front Spring Width

Post by Banjoe » Wed Jan 22, 2020 5:09 pm

Still trying to post pictures of the spring & perch differences
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Re: Front Spring Width

Post by TRDxB2 » Wed Jan 22, 2020 8:17 pm

I extracted the photo o make it easier for others to see.
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wide spring.jpg
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Re: Front Spring Width

Post by Allan » Thu Jan 23, 2020 4:40 am

I buy off-the-shelf bronze bushes rather than the rolled steel standard issue. They are all 2' long, OK for the rear, but I have to turn them down for the front. It would be easy just to turn a bronze bush down to 1.75 " to keep things in line.

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Re: Front Spring Width

Post by Banjoe » Thu Jan 23, 2020 7:29 am

Hi Allan FDU,

Aha, a 1 3/4" bushing would bring the shackle into alignment and eliminate spacers, wouldn't it? I would have to replace the bushing in the A spring as it's 1/4" too short as well and sunken into the eye. (that sounds painful).

I'm going to visit the frame and tunnel out in the snow to see if I can get some meaningful information on the front frame crossmember and hopefully figure out what sorcery took place to make the larger spring fit. Depending on that, it may be best to stay with the change they made so many years ago.

It does have me wondering what this 1927 went through in its early age. It's now 93 years old and I've owned it for 56 of those years so that meant that, before me, it had 37 years of dramatic life and boggled repairs. Must have been quite an experience.
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Re: Front Spring Width

Post by Banjoe » Thu Jan 23, 2020 7:34 am

Another picture showing the shackle space.
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Re: Front Spring Width

Post by Dallas Landers » Thu Jan 23, 2020 9:24 am

Can you have the spring eye machines to the right width? No spacers and unoticable if done right. Just thinking.


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Re: Front Spring Width

Post by Banjoe » Thu Jan 23, 2020 10:53 am

Now that you mention it, Dallas, Perhaps the spring eye could be machined down the required 1/4" so that the shackles will align properly. Would have to be done with 1/8" on each side to keep things centered but this could be a winner.

Still have to address the frame mounting issue and it will take a close examination to see what was done and if it's usable or recoverable.
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Re: Front Spring Width

Post by henryford2 » Thu Jan 23, 2020 8:48 pm

wouldn't it be easier to get the correct front spring. They're not that hard to come by?

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Re: Front Spring Width

Post by TRDxB2 » Thu Jan 23, 2020 9:40 pm

I agree - Buy a used spring and sell the one you have on Ebay. Canadian Model T sellers have front springs and cross members. Shipping costs to the US market limits what they can sell so you should e able to get a good deal. This is you last photo - even a Model A would need a spacer on the splined ends (the end that you cant see in your spring will chew up the bushing)
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Re: Front Spring Width

Post by Banjoe » Fri Jan 24, 2020 9:18 am

henryford2 (love that name) - you're absolutely right, getting the correct spring is really the right thing to do here and that's the path that I need to follow.

I have to check out the front frame crossmember to see what has been done to that to accommodate the wider Model A spring. Hopefully it's going to be a simple fix and I can move along with the right spring. Changing out the front crossover doesn't sound like the best of projects to tackle.

TRDxB2 - excellent call on the shackle problem. Those serrated areas will really chew up the bushings. A set of original shackles would be a good idea for this installation. The A spring is really nice looking now and hope I can move it along to a needy Model A.

Good thing that the Chickasha Swap Meet is coming up where there might be some good parts fishing. My list is growing daily
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Re: Front Spring Width

Post by Banjoe » Sun Jan 26, 2020 9:25 am

Took the trip to visit the buried frame and check out the front crossmember condition. I think it turned out to be well worth the effort.

I was hoping against hope that the frame hadn't been beaten into submission to accept the wider Model A spring and it looks like it's still an original condition crossmember.

I did note that the top spring leaf (the smallest one) in the Model A assembly was 1 1/2" wide so they used one T leaf (thank goodness it wast a tea leaf) on top of the assembly perhaps to help fit the wide spring into the narrow space?


I took some measurements and see that the outside of the crossmember is 1 7/8" and the inside dimension is 1 3/4". If this is the original inside dimension it would indicate that there was a space allowed for the T spring to move as required by the different wheel heights and that makes sense to me. This dimension also matches the Model A spring width so there shouldn't have been any crossmember distortion occurring when the A spring was added. There would be limited space for the spring to swing but I didn't note any wear in the crossmember from this occurring.

All in all, I'm thinking this is good news and all that's needed to get things squared away is a new T spring.
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Re: Front Spring Width

Post by DanTreace » Sun Jan 26, 2020 10:17 am

That inside width of 1 3/4" is likely ok, for a used front crossmember, most times they are fairly narrow at the center, about 1 5/16" or bit more.

What counts is the spring should be snug in the crossmember when the motor mount / spring clamp is fastened up secure. You don't want the spring stack to wiggle/wobble, front and rear, at all, inside the crossmember there in the center.

And utmost important is the center bolt square head, it has to fit snug in the square hole in the upper center of the crossmember, otherwise the spring stack will shift laterally. Plus, don't forget to add the spring pad.

A check can be made after assembly to slip a gauge, like a steel rule on both front and rear near the center, and it should be just able to slide up. That's an OK fit of the spring stack, assures it is firmly captured in the crossmember.

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Re: Front Spring Width

Post by TRDxB2 » Sun Jan 26, 2020 11:42 am

Isn't it possible to squeeze the cross member back to its intended width (necessary for the spring clamp can go over it) with say bar clamps.
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Re: Front Spring Width

Post by Banjoe » Sun Jan 26, 2020 12:07 pm

I appreciate that insight, Dan and the photo of what things should be like.

As things stand, it appears that the top of the crossmember is 1 7/8". The frame thickness is about 1/8" (just by checking the photo showing a ruler so this may be off). Deducting the frame thickness from the outside width leaves 1 5/8" clearance inside. Inserting the 1 1/2" spring leaves 1/8" clearance at the top of the crossmember or 1/16" on each side of the spring.

If this is too much space, can the crossmember be squeezed down as TRDx82 asks?

Joe
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Re: Front Spring Width

Post by TRDxB2 » Sun Jan 26, 2020 12:31 pm

Do or do not, there is no try... Basic idea -- put a 1 1/2+ wide 1/4 thick bar inside the cross member held in place at the top by a bolt through the frame bolt hole. Bar clamp ends just below with a piece of steel, front and back of the cross member and jaws of the camp, to keep everything straight and crank. NO HEAT
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Re: Front Spring Width

Post by Banjoe » Sun Jan 26, 2020 1:19 pm

"Do or do not" -- love it.

Thanks for the plan, TRDx82.

Joe
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