Freeze Crack Repair

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blgitn
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Freeze Crack Repair

Post by blgitn » Wed Jan 22, 2020 7:08 pm

I found some water in my lifter galley, and an old repair in the water jacket between 2 & 3. The repair is oil-colored and lifting around the edges. I can't tell if its JB Weld or Marine Tex. One of the freeze plugs is covered in white epoxy; pretty sure that's Marine tex.

it will be impossible to get the crack really (welding) clean, and I believe there will be too much rust damage in the crack area(s). I'm trying to decide whether to chip it off and use epoxy again or chip it off and go with good ol' Permatex #1. Reviewing old posts brings up the question of poly-glycols affecting the epoxies; I couldn't find a real conclusion to the discussion. What say Ye?

I've used both JB weld and ol' #1 successfully many times on the outside of the water jacket, but never inside the valve cover. I can see the chevron-shaped crack through the oval hole in the head-gasket surface: I intend to attack it with a long burr bit and then try to seal it from the top too. I'm happy to hear your opinions.

R/ Roger.


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Re: Freeze Crack Repair

Post by Altair » Wed Jan 22, 2020 8:04 pm

If it is a concerning issue, replace the block, there are lots of them out there.

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Henry K. Lee
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Re: Freeze Crack Repair

Post by Henry K. Lee » Wed Jan 22, 2020 8:07 pm

Roger,

You would want to find the end of that crack or close to it at both ends. Then drill a 1/16" hole where you think it is. This relieves particles from re-expanding and causing more fractures. Clean the area before and after using a burr, it must be cleaned very, very well. Race the burr in the area inspecting for other spider fractures coming from the main crack. Clean again, I would pre heat the area with a hair dryer for awhile and then use JB Weld. Let fully cure for a few days. I have seen some equipment come back from the dead worst. It might only be temporary but it should get you going.


Hope this Helps,

Hank in Tin-A-See


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Re: Freeze Crack Repair

Post by SurfCityGene » Thu Jan 23, 2020 2:03 am

You will find that the Permatex Ultra Black will work very well. It cures to a very durable and tough rubber like material. The epoxies and JB weld are too brittle and will not flex with the engine temps. My repairs have now lasted several years. Super clean the surface of any oil. I sort of cheated and used a piece of brass shim stock for extra strength. It has great adhesion strength.
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Re: Freeze Crack Repair

Post by Joe Bell » Thu Jan 23, 2020 8:23 am

I bet it is a 26-7 block, that is real common on them, I quit buying them at auctions from being burnt on a bad block, must of been something different on the cores to of caused this.


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Re: Freeze Crack Repair

Post by Dan Hatch » Thu Jan 23, 2020 8:46 am

I find them cracked in the valve guides too. Dan


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Re: Freeze Crack Repair

Post by John kuehn » Thu Jan 23, 2020 9:31 am

The original block in my 24 Coupe was cracked in the valve gallery and the crack extended Into the valve seat area. Money wise I thought it was cheaper to get a replacement block which I did. I did save the original for posterity I guess. I don’t know if it could be successfully repaired because of the location.
I didn’t see the crack toward the valve area until I used a mirrow to check it.


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Re: Freeze Crack Repair

Post by Joe Bell » Thu Jan 23, 2020 1:20 pm

I see them there also Dan, you need to sleeve it and seat it to keep it from leaking there, might as well find another block!


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Re: Freeze Crack Repair

Post by Chris Haynes » Thu Jan 23, 2020 3:17 pm

My water jackets also have rust holes in them. I am stripping the block and having them furnace welded.


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Re: Freeze Crack Repair

Post by Joe Bell » Thu Jan 23, 2020 3:44 pm

You can get a block for 100. or spend a thousand dollars chasing cracks, just my thoughts, unless it is an early block!


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Re: Freeze Crack Repair

Post by John bevardos » Thu Jan 23, 2020 3:59 pm

Chris ,
who is doing the welding for you?

john


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Re: Freeze Crack Repair

Post by Dan Hatch » Fri Jan 24, 2020 9:26 am

Joe: That is what I do. Have a pickup load for the scrap yard. Dan


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Re: Freeze Crack Repair

Post by Joe Bell » Fri Jan 24, 2020 2:33 pm

Dan, I have a local foundry that loves this old iron and in return every once in while I need something casted and they are more than happy to do it.


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Re: Freeze Crack Repair

Post by 2nighthawks » Fri Jan 24, 2020 7:46 pm

This is sort of an "aside" in regard to this topic, but however does apply in regard to stripping metal of dirt, grease, grime and any lubricant in preparation of repair products such as Permatex Ultra Black and such:

A company named Birchwood Casey makes a firearm cleaning product called "GUN SCRUBBER". It is much like brake cleaner, however, I have used it for years in cleaning firearms (as well as automotive use) and while it seems to be similar in action to brake cleaner, I personally believe that it works even better than brake cleaner. It is available from gun shops and is widely known and used by any good gunsmith as it has a fine reputation for complete removal of all oil and such to the degree that gunsmiths commonly use it in preparation for "bluing" processing of metal firearm parts and such. Not sure if it comes in any other form but pressurized aerosol spray cans, however, the pressure spray is actually probably best for "blasting" into, and cleaning out oil and such from engine block cracks. FWIW,.....harold

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Re: Freeze Crack Repair

Post by CJB » Fri Jan 24, 2020 10:43 pm

SurfCityGene wrote:
Thu Jan 23, 2020 2:03 am
You will find that the Permatex Ultra Black will work very well. It cures to a very durable and tough rubber like material. The epoxies and JB weld are too brittle and will not flex with the engine temps. My repairs have now lasted several years. Super clean the surface of any oil. I sort of cheated and used a piece of brass shim stock for extra strength. It has great adhesion strength.
Gene's suggestion works well. I prefer Right Stuff sealant, but either way it can be a simple, effective and potentially long-lasting repair for water jacket cracks and then like. Agree on "glueing" a strip of brass shim stock over the crack with a skim of sealant.I've repaired three or four cracks over the years (one in a T engine pan, others were water jacket) with this method and no failures to date.

This excerpt from our local club newsletter explains the technique.
Note: when I previewed this post the text below was almost unreadable, however, clicking on the graphic both expand and sharpened the text nicely

K12 freeze crack repair.png


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blgitn
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Re: Freeze Crack Repair

Post by blgitn » Mon Jan 27, 2020 4:27 pm

Dang. Strike one.

I located and sealed 4 cracks. Some had been brazed up, some puttied. I had to use a composite head gasket to put the new (good) head on. When I re-torqued it this morning; more water in the valve chamber!! :cry:

It's a durn shame too; hardened seats, stainless valves, adjustable lifters, sleeved to standard and lots of shims left. :x
I don't know how many times this thing froze up over the years but some PO put some work ($) into this engine.

I'm scared try that water-glass stuff or something like it. Won't it ruin my babbit?

Any suggestions?

R/ Roger.


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Re: Freeze Crack Repair

Post by Scott_Conger » Mon Jan 27, 2020 8:26 pm

where is the leak? And I know valve chamber, but where in the chamber?

Initially, you said between 2-3, but have now repaired 4 places...are you able to see specifically where it is coming from?

A gentle pressure on the block and some Snoop® Liquid Leak Detector will spot it if not obvious.

https://www.ebay.com/i/192771539231?chn ... rlEALw_wcB
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Re: Freeze Crack Repair

Post by SurfCityGene » Tue Jan 28, 2020 3:17 am

Roger, Yes, Please be more specific about where your crack is. If you need more info about using the Right Stuff or Ultra Black please let me know.
I don't think you will be successful trying any type of stop leak in the radiator but am sure that the typical freeze crack in the T block can be fixed like Chris has also suggested. Four Cracks???? We'll need some better discriptions
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Re: Freeze Crack Repair

Post by J and M Machine » Tue Jan 28, 2020 9:08 am

blgitn wrote:
Wed Jan 22, 2020 7:08 pm
I found some water in my lifter galley, and an old repair in the water jacket between 2 & 3. The repair is oil-colored and lifting around the edges. I can't tell if its JB Weld or Marine Tex. One of the freeze plugs is covered in white epoxy; pretty sure that's Marine tex.

it will be impossible to get the crack really (welding) clean, and I believe there will be too much rust damage in the crack area(s). I'm trying to decide whether to chip it off and use epoxy again or chip it off and go with good ol' Permatex #1. Reviewing old posts brings up the question of poly-glycols affecting the epoxies; I couldn't find a real conclusion to the discussion. What say Ye?

I've used both JB weld and ol' #1 successfully many times on the outside of the water jacket, but never inside the valve cover. I can see the chevron-shaped crack through the oval hole in the head-gasket surface: I intend to attack it with a long burr bit and then try to seal it from the top too. I'm happy to hear your opinions.

R/ Roger.
The crack can be reapired by metal stitching as seen in our pictures below even if it goes through th efreeze plug hole we can fix it permanently.
Attachments
IMG_5834.JPG
IMG_5688.JPG


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Re: Freeze Crack Repair

Post by Les Schubert » Tue Jan 28, 2020 9:29 am

The “stitch” method is how I’ve always had it done. Never regretted it. Guys talk about it being so easy to buy another GOOD block for a $100.00. That sure hasn’t been my experience. Sure for a ‘16-25 maybe. Early and good ‘26-7 make in Canada are getting scarce. Just my experience


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blgitn
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Re: Freeze Crack Repair

Post by blgitn » Thu Jan 30, 2020 5:37 pm

I thought I could see all the cracks... I fixed one chevron-shaped crack on the roof of the valve box (previously puttied), one long crack (previously brazed) running through the center freeze plug above the valve box, one under the fan, and one rear of the water inlet on the drivers side (previously brazed).

I'm thinking about isolating the block and circulating some water-glass type stuff under about 5psi. I'm working on a Rube Goldberg device to do that.

I just need one (or two) more seasons out of this engine while a replacement touring engine is built.

R/ Roger.


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Re: Freeze Crack Repair

Post by Scott_Conger » Thu Jan 30, 2020 6:07 pm

So, trying a product which requires 212F heat to transition, on a cold block in hopes of patching one or more cracks which from reading posts, you haven't found, is preferable to actually identifying and locating a crack with SNOOP?

Good luck with that.

I'm always intrigued when someone asks for advice and then rejects proven processes or products off hand. I am now guessing that Sodium Silicate Solution was always going to be the repair of choice prior to the initial Jan 22 question.
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blgitn
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Re: Freeze Crack Repair

Post by blgitn » Thu Jan 30, 2020 7:26 pm

Durn. :oops:

What is this SNOOP you speak of?

R/ Roger.


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Re: Freeze Crack Repair

Post by tdump » Thu Jan 30, 2020 8:12 pm

I know everyone wants to haul every block with a crack off to the junk yard nowadays. But T engines may not be as plentiful in 20 + years as they are now.New methods may be divised to repair them or what not.
I would like to see a pic of the actuall crack. There is no pressure on the cooiling system. even a poor weld will hold back some water to allow rust to block off the rest or some type of leak stop. I have never saw a bottle of that liquid glass stuff but I would like to have a bottle of it.I heard it used to come from the drug store?
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Re: Freeze Crack Repair

Post by SurfCityGene » Sat Feb 01, 2020 8:43 pm

Big,

Snoop is a leak detection liquid made by the Nupro company. It comes in a small bottle with a dispensing tube coiled inside so when you squeeze out the liquid you don't get any bubbles. The liquid is a surfactant so when it is applied over an area you want to check for a leak you see bubbles. of course the contents must be under pressure ao you'll see bubbles where the crack or leak is.

You can put some air pressure in your system and use a mixture of liquid soap and water to do the same. Scott gave you a great idea although I've never tried on a T cooling system. Not too Much Air!!!
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Re: Freeze Crack Repair

Post by Scott_Conger » Sat Feb 01, 2020 10:41 pm

Just follow the link I provided.

Soap acts similarly, though if the leak is just a weep, SNOOP will bubble and foam, where dish soap may pop prematurely leading to difficulty in determining exact/precise location.

As Gene mentions, go easy with the air pressure. You're simply trying to speed up a natural weep.
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blgitn
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Re: Freeze Crack Repair

Post by blgitn » Wed Feb 19, 2020 6:49 pm

Well, after several attempts I have achieved limited success.

I used Permatex #2 on chevron-shaped crack in the top of the valve chamber between 2 and 3. It had been previously coated with marine-tex from inside the valve chamber. I went in through the oval hole in the deck surface, first with evapo-rust, then water then compressed air. That one is fixed.

The previously brazed, then JB welded cracks around the freeze plugs above the valve cover got sanded down and re-JB-Welded. The center freeze plug still wept, but at least outside the engine.

There was one weeping brazed spot above the starter I sanded clean and JB-Welded.

Finally, I tried the sodium silicate. I even set it with 7 psi applied through a valve stem attached to the overflow tube. It seemed to work, but the weeping began again the next day. A second application with 10 psi and cardboard in front of the radiator also seemed to work, but wept the next day.

The good news is; no water in the oil anymore and just a drop or two on the ground. I'm calling it a win! :)


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Re: Freeze Crack Repair

Post by Scott_Conger » Wed Feb 19, 2020 7:01 pm

If you're happy, that's all that matters.

It is mildly amusing to me, that you asked for advice after proposing 3 different fixes yourself, and now have informed the Forum that the ONLY fixes you tried were what you planned to try all along. This begs the question as to why you would ask for advice from folks who have successfully solved your type of problem and then patently ignore their advice. I don't get it, but that is what makes the world go around, I suppose. Hopefully your fix(s) will work for a long time. It is more fun to drive than fix recurring problems, at least for me.
Scott Conger

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Re: Freeze Crack Repair

Post by tdump » Wed Feb 19, 2020 7:54 pm

Well he might have had some ideas how to do it,but ask the question in case there were other ways of doing it within his realm of abilty. somtimes there is supper in the fridge,but you go check the cabinet in case something else looks more appealing.
I know 1 fellow,that welded on a John Deere D cylinder head a couple times and never could get it to quit leaking.Got peod and happened to see 1 of the ads for Flex seal.Yep,that black gooey *$&# that loud mouth advertises on tv. Well,a brush,10 minutes,a week long cure of 2 thin applications inside the coolant chamber of the head,,and a reinstal of the head, in 2 years it aint leaked a drop and runs great.How long it last? who knows, The rest of the can of goo went around his plumbing vent pipe on his house. So cost was not much to fix the tractor.
Would I do this on a T? Doubt it,not a very large water passage in there for a thick layer of black goo to lay in.Would I try to solder the leaks shut? Maby,depending on where they were.I know someone posted soldering repairs on a crack years back on the old forum and I saved the pictures for reference.
I enjoy reading Stans replys to alot of these type issues as this thread is a good example. "get the damn leak stopped"
http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/179374/249588.html
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Re: Freeze Crack Repair

Post by Scott_Conger » Wed Feb 19, 2020 8:37 pm

Mack

I totally get your point.

My perspective was and still is: multiple attempts to locate and fix multiple leaks had failed to solve all leaks. Advice was requested to presumably fix the problem. Multiple suggestions (of the same product, no less) by posters with significant T experience expressing success and satisfaction in a particular product (in a non-standard application) is rejected in favor of a product that a. is not intended to be a surface patch and b. cannot be found (to my searching) anywhere in the Model T community to have been used successfully in such a non-standard application. In my life, when I have been unsuccessful at something and ask knowledgable folks for a proven solution to a problem and recieve multiple suggestions from several people all giving the same advice, I assume it to be good advice and then abandon my path in favor of theirs. I've rarely been disappointed with that approach.

BTW, I believe that Permatex #2 is an outstanding product with generations of successful use and I use it for my work. Just not in this manner.
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Re: Freeze Crack Repair

Post by SurfCityGene » Wed Feb 19, 2020 10:53 pm

Scot and Mack, Don't be upset when the little chubby kid tells you that he loves candy cause its sweet but you still suck on the cough drops and mumble about it.

I know I have posted several times about leaks and seals because I've had great success and seen my advice work for others. I've tried the marine tex and JB weld and learned that the block flexes when it get hot and these product eventually fail. I believe the Flex Seal is a relative of ULTRA BLACK and has been proven to be a great leak sealer for certain applications. I still have tubes of #1 and #2 in my shop but they never get used with new and more advanced products available today.
I guess it upsets me that guys read suggestions and try to fix things but are unsuccessful then sort of give up and settle for crappy performance or lingering problems.

I refrain from many posts because I like to offer my ideas because I know they can be successful. The main thing is that guys are happy with their choice and results.

I Really appreciate the posting of the results.. We don't often see that even when we ask to post how it worked out!
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Re: Freeze Crack Repair

Post by RajoRacer » Thu Feb 20, 2020 11:13 am

O.K. fellas - how's this for a water jacket crack !!!!
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water jacket crack.JPG


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Re: Freeze Crack Repair

Post by tdump » Thu Feb 20, 2020 11:49 am

Looks to be similar to a 26 block I have in the shed.Complete engine just has a similar crack with a small chunk missing. Repairable I am sure.
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blgitn
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Re: Freeze Crack Repair

Post by blgitn » Thu Feb 20, 2020 1:04 pm

Anyway, Thanks everybody for the help.

R/ Roger.


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Re: Freeze Crack Repair

Post by Olrusst » Thu Feb 20, 2020 1:27 pm

I’ve had 5or6 broken and or cracked blocks stitched by frank Casey of mill bury mass. All are running no leaks no problems

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