CANADIAN OR US BUILT 1913 TOURING?
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Topic author - Posts: 4
- Joined: Mon Jan 14, 2019 10:27 pm
- First Name: David
- Last Name: Lewis
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1913 T Touring
- Location: Winchester va
- Board Member Since: 2018
CANADIAN OR US BUILT 1913 TOURING?
Hello,
I have a 1913 Ford Model T Touring. The engine serial # is C 11408. I've had a couple of different opinions regarding where the car and /or engine were manufactured and assembled. Can any of the experts out there shed some light on this or direct me to a reference? Thanks very much for your assistance.
Regards,
Dave Lewis
I have a 1913 Ford Model T Touring. The engine serial # is C 11408. I've had a couple of different opinions regarding where the car and /or engine were manufactured and assembled. Can any of the experts out there shed some light on this or direct me to a reference? Thanks very much for your assistance.
Regards,
Dave Lewis
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- Posts: 14
- Joined: Tue Feb 26, 2019 10:18 am
- First Name: Ronald
- Last Name: MacDonald
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: '15roadster4WD,'17Touring,'20CenterDoor,'25TT, 2x-'26coupes,'26snowmobile
- Location: Combermere, Ontario Canada
- MTFCA Number: 23888
- MTFCI Number: 16319
Re: CANADIAN OR US BUILT 1913 TOURING?
Congratulations: 1913 was a pivotal year for Model T production in Canada. 1913 was the year Ford built Model T's with parts made in Canada as opposed to parts imported from the USA which were then assembled in Canada.
Your touring car should have four doors. A significant number of Canadian "'T's were assembled with right hand drive for export into the British Empire, to the Province of British Columbia and the Canadian Maritime Provinces. The left front door made ingress and egress easier for the right hand drive variant. It probably started life painted dark blue.
Your car, with serial number starting with "C" indicates Canadian production (there were, also, a few very early Canadian '13's with "B" prefixed serial numbers) and [it] was most likely built in Walkerville, Ontario. Walkerville was absorbed, later, into the city of Windsor, Ontario. (Across the river from Detroit)
Hope this helps
Your touring car should have four doors. A significant number of Canadian "'T's were assembled with right hand drive for export into the British Empire, to the Province of British Columbia and the Canadian Maritime Provinces. The left front door made ingress and egress easier for the right hand drive variant. It probably started life painted dark blue.
Your car, with serial number starting with "C" indicates Canadian production (there were, also, a few very early Canadian '13's with "B" prefixed serial numbers) and [it] was most likely built in Walkerville, Ontario. Walkerville was absorbed, later, into the city of Windsor, Ontario. (Across the river from Detroit)
Hope this helps
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Topic author - Posts: 4
- Joined: Mon Jan 14, 2019 10:27 pm
- First Name: David
- Last Name: Lewis
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1913 T Touring
- Location: Winchester va
- Board Member Since: 2018
Re: CANADIAN OR US BUILT 1913 TOURING?
Hardie,
Thanks very much. My 13 is a 3 door (no drivers door). Were all Canadian 13's 4 doors? Wonder if I opened up a can of worms! I'm contemplating selling the car and would like to say for certainty (if I can) if it's truly a Canadian or US built model. Do you think it would affect value based on country built in?
Thanks again for your time Hardie!
Dave
Thanks very much. My 13 is a 3 door (no drivers door). Were all Canadian 13's 4 doors? Wonder if I opened up a can of worms! I'm contemplating selling the car and would like to say for certainty (if I can) if it's truly a Canadian or US built model. Do you think it would affect value based on country built in?
Thanks again for your time Hardie!
Dave
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- Posts: 4111
- Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2019 7:31 pm
- First Name: Dan
- Last Name: Hatch
- Location: Alabama
- MTFCA Number: 49974
Re: CANADIAN OR US BUILT 1913 TOURING?
Dave: Look around it for anything that might say "Made IN USA". Stuff that went to Canada that had that on it was ground off, or removed some way. I have a 13 running gear that was a Canada car and the USA on the block was ground off. Mine was an early 13 so no Made in USA on the head, but the side of block was ground off. Dan.
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- Posts: 5205
- Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 7:21 pm
- First Name: Allan
- Last Name: Bennett
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1912 van, 1917 shooting brake, 1929 roadster buckboard, 1924 tourer, 1925 barn find buckboard, 1925 D &F wide body roadster, 1927LHD Tudor sedan.
- Location: Gawler, Australia
Re: CANADIAN OR US BUILT 1913 TOURING?
Dave, another give away for a Canadian car is the use of Robinson screws. These are driven by a square hole in the head of the screw instead of the usual slot for a plain screwdriver. The story goes that Henry did not want to pay royalties to use them in US production, so US made cars have the slot head screws.
I do not know if 1913 models had Robinson screws or when they were first used in Ford cars made in Canada, so the above may not apply.
Hope this helps.
Allan from down under.
I do not know if 1913 models had Robinson screws or when they were first used in Ford cars made in Canada, so the above may not apply.
Hope this helps.
Allan from down under.
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Topic author - Posts: 4
- Joined: Mon Jan 14, 2019 10:27 pm
- First Name: David
- Last Name: Lewis
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1913 T Touring
- Location: Winchester va
- Board Member Since: 2018
Re: CANADIAN OR US BUILT 1913 TOURING?
Thank you Dan and Allan for the tips. I will check for those items you pointed out!!
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- Posts: 4111
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- First Name: Dan
- Last Name: Hatch
- Location: Alabama
- MTFCA Number: 49974
Re: CANADIAN OR US BUILT 1913 TOURING?
Dave: I might be interested in the car if you decide to sell it. Thanks, Dan.
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- Posts: 5205
- Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 7:21 pm
- First Name: Allan
- Last Name: Bennett
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1912 van, 1917 shooting brake, 1929 roadster buckboard, 1924 tourer, 1925 barn find buckboard, 1925 D &F wide body roadster, 1927LHD Tudor sedan.
- Location: Gawler, Australia
Re: CANADIAN OR US BUILT 1913 TOURING?
Dave, make that Robertson screws. Robinson was my aunt and Dave Robinson does brilliant bodywork on old cars in his shop near Canberra.
Allan from down under.
Allan from down under.
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- Posts: 3641
- Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 3:13 pm
- First Name: Wayne
- Last Name: Sheldon
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1915 Runabout 1913 Speedster
- Location: Grass Valley California, USA
- Board Member Since: 2005
Re: CANADIAN OR US BUILT 1913 TOURING?
I cannot say for certain about 1913. However I have known a couple 1915 Canadian built Fords, and they did have Robertson screws.
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- Posts: 343
- Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 11:43 am
- First Name: Darren
- Last Name: Wallace
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1913 Canadian Touring 1905 Queen model B
- Location: Woodstock, Ontario, Canada
- Board Member Since: 2005
- Contact:
Re: CANADIAN OR US BUILT 1913 TOURING?
My 1913 Canadian touring is very complete and fairly original. I have all it's documentation since new. There are no Robertson screws on it. However, the '15 I had did! It also has four doors
1913 Canadian Touring & 1905 Queen, both cars are 4 generation family owned cars
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- Posts: 14
- Joined: Tue Feb 26, 2019 10:18 am
- First Name: Ronald
- Last Name: MacDonald
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: '15roadster4WD,'17Touring,'20CenterDoor,'25TT, 2x-'26coupes,'26snowmobile
- Location: Combermere, Ontario Canada
- MTFCA Number: 23888
- MTFCI Number: 16319
Re: CANADIAN OR US BUILT 1913 TOURING?
Re: Your 1913 Canadian Touring car.
I am unaware of a true Canadian Model T touring built with only three doors or for that matter built without Robertson screws. Be it known I am not an absolute encyclopedia of Canadian T's but our Ontario clubs have many of them.
Canadian '13s are not too common because they didn't build too many of them. Many of those would have been scrapped in the war effort. Records indicate total 1913 Canadian T production amounted to less than 12000 units. The preponderance of those were probably touring cars. I am also unaware of any built without Robertson screws. The cars I am most familiar with, being a Canadian member of two Canadian T clubs, have Robertson screws throughout. I own seven Model Ts, accumulated over about 40 years, six of which are Canadian made.
When Henry started to produce Ts in Canada part of his motivation was to be able to supply Ts to the British Empire, without the burden of tariffs placed upon them. In that he was successful. Robertson, who resided in Milton Ontario, held the patent on Robertson screws, his invention, and manufactured them there. Henry found the Robertson screws sped up the assembly process significantly because they fit firmly to the tool being used and did not tend to fall off the end of the driver. Ford offered to buy Robertson's patent and pressured Robertson to sell. Robertson stood firm. Ford told him he (Robertson) would never market his screws in the USA and as far as I know that still stands. I have supplied screws and drivers to quite a few of your countrymen restoring Canadian Ts.
Your engine, C11408 would have been serialized in later production of the '13s. The block may have been cast in the USA but if it was that nomenclature would have been ground off; likewise the cylinder head if all is original.
Hope this helps: Ron MacDonald
I am unaware of a true Canadian Model T touring built with only three doors or for that matter built without Robertson screws. Be it known I am not an absolute encyclopedia of Canadian T's but our Ontario clubs have many of them.
Canadian '13s are not too common because they didn't build too many of them. Many of those would have been scrapped in the war effort. Records indicate total 1913 Canadian T production amounted to less than 12000 units. The preponderance of those were probably touring cars. I am also unaware of any built without Robertson screws. The cars I am most familiar with, being a Canadian member of two Canadian T clubs, have Robertson screws throughout. I own seven Model Ts, accumulated over about 40 years, six of which are Canadian made.
When Henry started to produce Ts in Canada part of his motivation was to be able to supply Ts to the British Empire, without the burden of tariffs placed upon them. In that he was successful. Robertson, who resided in Milton Ontario, held the patent on Robertson screws, his invention, and manufactured them there. Henry found the Robertson screws sped up the assembly process significantly because they fit firmly to the tool being used and did not tend to fall off the end of the driver. Ford offered to buy Robertson's patent and pressured Robertson to sell. Robertson stood firm. Ford told him he (Robertson) would never market his screws in the USA and as far as I know that still stands. I have supplied screws and drivers to quite a few of your countrymen restoring Canadian Ts.
Your engine, C11408 would have been serialized in later production of the '13s. The block may have been cast in the USA but if it was that nomenclature would have been ground off; likewise the cylinder head if all is original.
Hope this helps: Ron MacDonald
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- Posts: 365
- Joined: Thu Jan 17, 2019 11:52 am
- First Name: David
- Last Name: Menzies
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1926 Touring and 1915 Touring both Canadian models
- Location: British Columbia
- MTFCA Number: 27825
- Board Member Since: 2012
Re: CANADIAN OR US BUILT 1913 TOURING?
I don't think the Made in USA was ground off, I don't believe it was ever cast in the first place. I have a Canadian 15 and 16 engine and only Ford is cast on the block and nothing is ground off. I don't think the country of manufacture was cast in the blocks until some time in 17 or later.
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- First Name: Bob
- Last Name: McDaniel
- Location: Smithville TN.
- MTFCA Number: 28428
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Re: CANADIAN OR US BUILT 1913 TOURING?
This is my early 13 Touring engine cast 12-24-12
Give an old car guy a barn and he won't throw anything away.
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- Posts: 5205
- Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 7:21 pm
- First Name: Allan
- Last Name: Bennett
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1912 van, 1917 shooting brake, 1929 roadster buckboard, 1924 tourer, 1925 barn find buckboard, 1925 D &F wide body roadster, 1927LHD Tudor sedan.
- Location: Gawler, Australia
Re: CANADIAN OR US BUILT 1913 TOURING?
David, the fossil evidence is contrary to your timeline for the casting of country of manufacture on engine blocks. Many, if not all early blocks in Canadian supplied cars sent to Australia show where the 'Made In USA' was ground/chiselled off. I cannot put a time to the end of this practice.
Allan from down under.
Allan from down under.
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- Posts: 14
- Joined: Tue Feb 26, 2019 10:18 am
- First Name: Ronald
- Last Name: MacDonald
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: '15roadster4WD,'17Touring,'20CenterDoor,'25TT, 2x-'26coupes,'26snowmobile
- Location: Combermere, Ontario Canada
- MTFCA Number: 23888
- MTFCI Number: 16319
Re: CANADIAN OR US BUILT 1913 TOURING?
Good Morning:
As my Father was prone to say, "most things in life are not etched in stone". Then there's Ford engine blocks!
Never wanting to spread misinformation I went to my library last night and took a look at Bruce McCalley's book. In the 1913 section of "the book" on page 163 Bruce shows several angles on a USA built 1913 engine; clearly the left engine skirt and the cylinder head have "Ford made in the USA" cast into them. the '09-12 engines in Bruce's book show no such casting. I'm strongly convinced the Made in USA casting will be ground off on a Canadian built Model T, from that time period, notwithstanding where the engine was cast, again, to avoid the tariff complications with export vehicles into the British Empire.
As an aside; I mentioned earlier a significant number of Canadian cars were manufactured with right-hand drive. Thus the four door touring cars and two door runabouts. At that time period, in Canada, the Provinces of British Columbia, New Brunswick , Nova Scotia and Prince Edward Island drove on the left side of the road in the fashion of Great Britain and its colonies; one of which was Canada, (more or less). Newfoundland didn't come into Confederation till 1948 and they too drove on the left side of whatever roads existed there.
Four door touring cars: a Canadian thing.
Hope this helps. Ron MacDonald
As my Father was prone to say, "most things in life are not etched in stone". Then there's Ford engine blocks!
Never wanting to spread misinformation I went to my library last night and took a look at Bruce McCalley's book. In the 1913 section of "the book" on page 163 Bruce shows several angles on a USA built 1913 engine; clearly the left engine skirt and the cylinder head have "Ford made in the USA" cast into them. the '09-12 engines in Bruce's book show no such casting. I'm strongly convinced the Made in USA casting will be ground off on a Canadian built Model T, from that time period, notwithstanding where the engine was cast, again, to avoid the tariff complications with export vehicles into the British Empire.
As an aside; I mentioned earlier a significant number of Canadian cars were manufactured with right-hand drive. Thus the four door touring cars and two door runabouts. At that time period, in Canada, the Provinces of British Columbia, New Brunswick , Nova Scotia and Prince Edward Island drove on the left side of the road in the fashion of Great Britain and its colonies; one of which was Canada, (more or less). Newfoundland didn't come into Confederation till 1948 and they too drove on the left side of whatever roads existed there.
Four door touring cars: a Canadian thing.
Hope this helps. Ron MacDonald
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- Posts: 311
- Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 1:36 pm
- First Name: Colin
- Last Name: Mavins
- Location: Winnipeg Canada
Re: CANADIAN OR US BUILT 1913 TOURING?
I would check the serial number it may be a poorly stamped B If it is a C ,it may be a Us car with a Canadian Block. My Sept 1912 an original car that was complete running driving car with original engine only has Ford on the block nothing removed the casting date is above the serial number ,the body was never apart original wood and there are no Robertson screws on the car. this is the car , driven home 1960