13T - Insufficient Cooling

[Darin Hull]

Does most of the heat transfer from the internal combustion process to the coolant occur in the head?

Last season I purchased a new Brassworks radiator with flat tubes. A visual inspection of the coolant area of the head revealed heavy scaling/rust. I repeatedly treated the head/water jackets with products like Evaporust and seemed to make progress on removing a lot of deposits. I also use distilled water to not add future deposits.

Despite the new radiator and treated head, I still seemed to run hot most of the season and would overheat if I stopped too long, say in a drive through. I even thought I was going to overheat during a Christmas parade, with a lot of stopping, when temps were in the 40s. This determination from knowing on my Boyce motometer what temp I usually run at and when I know I’m running hot. Usually, my T’s coolant temps are in the 215-low 220s when I come in from a normal ride.

I’ve read in previous threads how Ford’s thermosyphon system is sufficient and overheating issues are a result of a portion of that system not performing adequately. So, in consideration of having a brand new flat tube radiator... would heavy scaling on the head be the most likely culprit since it may be severely reducing the efficiency of heat transfer? Is a new head the only remedy since I’m not interested in adding a water pump?

Thank you for your time,
Darin

[Mark Chaffin]

You may want to check your timing to make sure you are not running retarded. Also, try running distilled water with water wetter instead of coolant. Model T engines are not a fan of radiator coolants as it takes much more heat for the coolant to begin to flow (boil). Lastly, check your fan to be sure it is turning. With a new flat tube radiator, you should not be running hot. Good luck!

[Erik Johnson]

In addition to ignition timing mentioned above:

- make sure you have the proper oil level in the crankcase

- try richening the fuel mixture

[TXGOAT2]

If your engine water jacket is very rusty, it's quite possible that rust and debris has made its way into the upper tank of your new radiator and lodged in the top of the tubes. Rust can also plug or restrict the "steam holes" in the block and head and allow trapped air and steam to accumulate. Leaky valves, a late spark, too rich or too lean mixture, and poor oiling system performance can contribute to overheating, as can dragging bands and anything that adds materially to the car's rolling resistance.

[Steve Jelf]

I believe the head would have to be suffering from major clogging to interfere with sufficient cooling. But lots of crud in the head certainly doesn't help. In addition to rust removing products (Evaporust, vinegar, etc.) you can do some physical scale removal. With the head removed, be sure the five ¼" holes in the block and the five in the head are completely clear. Get a piece of steel cable a little over a foot long. Unravel the end to make it into a wire brush. Chuck the other end in a drill and feed the rotating brush into the three large water passages in the top of the block and the same in the head. Do all this dry and blow out the loosened crud with compressed air. If you find that you're removing a lot of debris from the block, you may want to remove the casting plugs and insert your rotating brush through those holes too, to get some of the stuff you didn't reach through the other openings.

All this may be for naught. Your overheating may be for reasons the other guys have suggested (running too retarded, too lean, etc.).

Will other products cool better than regular antifreeze? Maybe. But you shouldn't need them. In a clean system with a new radiator, ordinary antifreeze mixed 50/50 should remain well below the boiling point. I use distilled water to prevent mineral deposits and antifreeze to prevent rust.

[Craig Leach]

Hi Darin,
Everyone has hit on possible issues. Did you install the new radiator because you had a overheating issue to begin with? or did the the heating problem come after? I assume the radiator is puking water out when it gets hot and the motometer is accurate? You stated that you often have Temps. of 215*to 220* water boils @ 212* at sea level if I remember correctly. My motometers are not graduated that way how are you determaning those Temps?
Have you tested for combustion gasses in the radiator? Most T owners have a water pump they took off of thier car, if all else fails it would be better than burning up the engine trying to find a solution. See if you can borrow one? Look around shop & garage doors I hear they make great door stops.
Craig

[Philip]

i put the same rad. on my 24 and i done even need the fan belt and im in nc where it gets real hot.
i would say you have some issue. philip

[Norman Kling]

There is a difference between running hot and boiling! Several things to consider:
1.The top tank of the radiator should be only filled about half way up. The coolant should be about the level of the Ford Emblem. If you over fill it will go out the overflow as the engine gets warmer. This is normal and not overheating. When the coolant reaches the proper level it should not flow out.
2, On a hot day after a hard run and you turn off the engine, it will usually gurgle for a few seconds, but not boil out. That is also normal.
3. The motometer does not give you the number of degrees. It does have a mark which indicates average summer temperature. If the red goes all the way to the top, it would indicate overheating.
4. An indication of boiling would be steam coming out with very hot water boiling out.
How are you measuring the temperature in degrees? Is it while driving, or after you turn off the engine? It is normal to get a little hotter as the coolant rises without the fan blowing or air blowing from forward movement, so it would read a bit hotter right after you turn off the engine than while it is running.
5. The green old fashoned antifreeze coolant, also raises the temperature of the boiling point. It has rust inhibitor in it and is good to run in the car. 50-50 mixture is best.
Anyway, take into consideration all of the above before deciding that the engine is really overheating. This consideration includes the suggestions of the other posters above.
Norm

[Bud Delong]

Are the side pans on your car?? I pulled the sheet metal cover off the lower dash and you would be amazed at the air flow and cooling. Bud.

[Darin Hull]

Excellent feedback and I appreciate the additional issues to check as I work through the overheating.

My oil level has been good, I monitor it prior to every drive. The timing is something I’m working on right now. I have the fully retarded timing setup correctly; however, I noticed I wasn’t getting a full range of travel out of my timer. This was due to the commutator rod having too much flex and it requiring a decent amount of input before moving the timer. I just received a new commutator rod from Lang’s and will install it this week.

My mixture I setup with the online MTFCA guide on setting the mixture for a Holley NH carb. I haven’t tried to make the mixture richer and see what impact it has on the operating temps.

It sounds like it is time to pull the head, if head gaskets aren’t back ordered. An inspection would produce better information as to its condition.

Craig,

I was passed the T from my grandpa and it had not run for maybe 10 years. So, I have no prior driving experience on the T with the old radiator. The old radiator was past its service life so I got a new flat tube radiator in preparation to get the T on the road, again. Also, I have not tested for combustion gases in the radiator. The motometer is pretty accurate as when it gets to the top of the open circle, I know the water puking and steam is about to start.

Norman and Craig, You asked about the motometer and, of course, mine is not graduated either. I have a digital thermometer I keep with the T which I used to take coolant temps immediately after my drives. Was comparing the coolant temps to differences in ambient air temp, what kind of driving I was doing that day, etc. Most of the time I have a quiet gurgle and nothing more... as long as I’m moving or only briefly stopped, I’m good.

Thank you for the feedback,
Darin

[Colin Mavins]

Are you running a water pump , I removed mine and the temps dropped 20 degree's I am still using the original 109 year old rad and work just fine . My rad was rodded out about 1968 by a shop that knew old rads one tube is blocked.

[Steve Jelf]

For a head gasket contact Adam Doleshal.

[Norman Kling]

The problem with taking the temperature immediately after driving is that without air blowing through the radiator, it will heat up for a few minutes. The circulation stops when the cooling of the radiator ends when your fan stops.
I think you will find the engine will run cooler when you are able to advance the spark. So wait until you install the new rod and adjust to fit. Also another thing to consider is the length of the fan belt. Sometimes if the wrong belt is used, your rod will hit the belt preventing you from fully advancing the spark.
Norm

[Adam]

For a head gasket contact Adam Doleshal.


IMG_5392 copy.JPG

I do have a few of the graphite head gaskets available. If you need one, just email me thru the forum. (Click on the contact “cloud” with the three dots inside it and then click on the envelope that appears)

[TXGOAT2]

Cam timing could also affect running temperature as could valve stem clearance.

[TWrenn]

Lang's has the copper head gaskets again, also the "fancy" period correct fuel shutoff valve for the carb that doesn't seize up and doesn't leak! I just got one of each last week.

[lesvonnordheim]

I walked the walk with over heating problems with my 13 touring before adding a Texas T new water pump. That was over 15 years ago and the car runs great. Besides a brass works flat tube core radiator....I did clean out the head and block with Phosphoric acid during the re-build over 20 years ago. I run 50/50 coolant and the cooling system stays clean. The engine is bored .080" over which may contribute to over heating....however the water pump allows me to enjoy driving the car. Just keep the hood down and don't talk about using a water pump and enjoy life. I don't think all fords were created equal and all do not cool or perform the same.

Les

[dmdeaton]

For a head gasket contact Adam Doleshal.


IMG_5392 copy.JPG

I do have a few of the graphite head gaskets available. If you need one, just email me thru the forum. (Click on the contact “cloud” with the three dots inside it and then click on the envelope that appears)

Adam
I set you a email

[John kuehn]

I would 2nd what Steve J has to say about cleaning out the water jacket holes in the block and head.
After years and years the holes do get ‘smaller’ with layers of rust and scale. It’s kind of like when your arteries get clogged!
It’s kind of forgotten about when upgrading you radiator and thinking that’s all there is to it.

If you haven’t used a drill bit to clean out the small holes in the block and head you might be surprised how those small holes play a good part in water circulation.

If you haven’t cleaned out all the water jacket passages it’s something that sure can’t hurt whether you need it or not. Hope this can help.

[Dan McEachern]

those holes are actually steam vents to keep steam pockets from forming in the corners of the block around the front and rear exhaust ports. As soon as a steam pocket forms, heat transfer in that area goes way down.