Sealing my 12 rivet rear end
Forum rules
If you need help logging in, or have question about how something works, use the Support forum located here Support Forum
Complete set of Forum Rules Forum Rules
If you need help logging in, or have question about how something works, use the Support forum located here Support Forum
Complete set of Forum Rules Forum Rules
-
Topic author - Posts: 6815
- Joined: Fri Jan 04, 2019 10:51 am
- First Name: Richard
- Last Name: Eagle
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1909 TR 1914 TR 1915 Rd 1920 Spdstr 1922 Coupe 1925 Tudor
- Location: Idaho Falls, ID
- MTFCA Number: 1219
- Contact:
Sealing my 12 rivet rear end
The 12 rivet rear end housing was no doubt an improvement over the earlier housings. Within two years it was replaced by a much better design which served well until the end of model T production. In time the 12 rivet version loosens and leaks even the heavy oil used back in the day. We have seen many that were brazed around the joints and rivets to alieve this problem. When I rebuilt this one 11,000 miles ago I coated fiberglass resin around the rivets to seal them. This worked well with the Amsoil synthetic R&O AW I have used in other applications for several years. Eventually it began leaking some. Lately the puddles on the garage floor under rear axle became large enough to require attention. Upon drilling the rivets out and popping the sections apart I found thick fluid was between them. It was not getting past the rivets but seeping between center end and the tapered tube. Then out between rivets. I had greased the roller bearings with Amsoil Grease and the oil was mixing with both inner and outer rollers. Probably not a bad mixture for lubricating.
Hearing of some lubricants attacking the bronze thrust washers I had worried that the Amsoil might be harmful. After rinsing the inside and disassembling the axle I found very little wear and no effect on the bronze. I’m confident this is a good choice of lubricant for me. I spun the housing sections on a rotating brake drum machine which makes cleaning thorough and quick. I noticed the quality control on the one housing was not as expected. The hole was offset but is not crucial to operation.
Hearing of some lubricants attacking the bronze thrust washers I had worried that the Amsoil might be harmful. After rinsing the inside and disassembling the axle I found very little wear and no effect on the bronze. I’m confident this is a good choice of lubricant for me. I spun the housing sections on a rotating brake drum machine which makes cleaning thorough and quick. I noticed the quality control on the one housing was not as expected. The hole was offset but is not crucial to operation.
When did I do that?
-
Topic author - Posts: 6815
- Joined: Fri Jan 04, 2019 10:51 am
- First Name: Richard
- Last Name: Eagle
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1909 TR 1914 TR 1915 Rd 1920 Spdstr 1922 Coupe 1925 Tudor
- Location: Idaho Falls, ID
- MTFCA Number: 1219
- Contact:
Re: Sealing my 12 rivet rear end
I cleaned the rivet holes on both sides but found the fiberglass was still bonding well.
I used JB Weld on both the riveted surfaces and the interface at the housing taper to keep oil from leaking out this time. I also used grade-8 bolts and rounded the heads rather than riveting the sections together.
Finally I am adding some paint over the whole assembly for what extra sealing that may have.
When did I do that?
-
- Posts: 1922
- Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 11:23 am
- First Name: Rich
- Last Name: Bingham
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1913 runabout
- Location: Blackfoot, Idaho
-
- Posts: 2293
- Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 5:25 pm
- First Name: George
- Last Name: House
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: ‘10 Maxwell AA, ‘11Hupp Model 20, Two 1914 Ford runabouts, 19 centerdoor, 25 C Cab,26 roadster
- Location: Northern Caldwell County TX
- MTFCA Number: 115
- MTFCA Life Member: YES
- Board Member Since: 1999
Re: Sealing my 12 rivet rear end
Good job Rich ! And I especially like the pictures of the steps of your job. I did the grade 8 bolts too but, instead of JB Weld, I used RTV Hi Temp on the mating surfaces. Thanks for sharing your well thought-out technique !
I don’t know why I turned out this way. My parents were decent people.
-
- Posts: 5259
- Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 7:21 pm
- First Name: Allan
- Last Name: Bennett
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1912 van, 1917 shooting brake, 1929 roadster buckboard, 1924 tourer, 1925 barn find buckboard, 1925 D &F wide body roadster, 1927LHD Tudor sedan.
- Location: Gawler, Australia
Re: Sealing my 12 rivet rear end
Well done Rich. I did a similar fix on my 1912 van some 25 years ago. I cut a screwdriver slot on the threaded end of bolts so I could hold them as the nuts were tensioned. Rather than a rigid fix like fibreglass, I used a Loktite red flange sealant which remains flexible rather than setting hard. I took the easy route to cleaning by having all the parts hot tanked to remove all traces of grease and grime. After around 20000 miles it is still holding up.
I did another for a friend and used button head set screws, and used filler in the socket heads after assembly.
Allan from down under.
I did another for a friend and used button head set screws, and used filler in the socket heads after assembly.
Allan from down under.
-
- Posts: 1069
- Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 12:18 pm
- First Name: John
- Last Name: Warren
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 14 Roadster, 25 Pickup , 26 Canadian Touring , and a 24-28 TA race car
- Location: Henderson, Nevada
Re: Sealing my 12 rivet rear end
Its pose to leak !!!! cause if it don't, it is out of earl !!! Great stuff thanks.
24-28 TA race car, 26 Canadian touring, 25 Roadster pickup, 14 Roadster, and 11AB Maxwell runabout
Keep it simple and keep a good junk pile if you want to invent something
Keep it simple and keep a good junk pile if you want to invent something
-
Topic author - Posts: 6815
- Joined: Fri Jan 04, 2019 10:51 am
- First Name: Richard
- Last Name: Eagle
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1909 TR 1914 TR 1915 Rd 1920 Spdstr 1922 Coupe 1925 Tudor
- Location: Idaho Falls, ID
- MTFCA Number: 1219
- Contact:
Re: Sealing my 12 rivet rear end
If it pose to it dit! I did find some of the screws did want to turn rather than tighten. A punch mark under the head with chisel or center punch will stop that. It's probably easier to do before rounding the heads.
Also, I took some advice and bought a pair of axle stands rather than use cinder blocks as I used to do. Remarks here cautioned me of that. 12 ton should hold it. The cinder block shown was to hold the driveshaft up.
Thanks
I still add a sawhorse before crawling underneath. Oil leaking at the u-joint and a leaky muffler had coated the underside of the car with slimy black. This was a good time to clean all that away. It was not a pleasant job but rewarding to have it clean now. Also, this is a good time to install the felt washers for those who like them. And washing under the rear fenders was easier at this time.
Also, I took some advice and bought a pair of axle stands rather than use cinder blocks as I used to do. Remarks here cautioned me of that. 12 ton should hold it. The cinder block shown was to hold the driveshaft up.
Thanks
I still add a sawhorse before crawling underneath. Oil leaking at the u-joint and a leaky muffler had coated the underside of the car with slimy black. This was a good time to clean all that away. It was not a pleasant job but rewarding to have it clean now. Also, this is a good time to install the felt washers for those who like them. And washing under the rear fenders was easier at this time.
When did I do that?
-
- Posts: 4358
- Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 12:18 pm
- First Name: Steve
- Last Name: Tomaso
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1914 Touring, 1919 Centerdoor, 1924 TT C-Cab Express, 1925 Racer
- Location: Longbranch, WA
- MTFCA Number: 14972
- MTFCI Number: 15411
- Board Member Since: 2001
Re: Sealing my 12 rivet rear end
I tackled that job several years ago on our '14 - I sealed all parts with black RTV and used grade 8 "button head" 1/4" bolts - after tightening, I just filled the Allen holes with RTV - can't tell unless you stick your head down there !
-
- Posts: 1057
- Joined: Thu Feb 21, 2019 1:20 pm
- First Name: Joe
- Last Name: Bell
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 24 Fordor
- Location: Tiffin Ohio
- MTFCI Number: 24066
Re: Sealing my 12 rivet rear end
There is an RTV that is special for rear axle lubes, comes in a grey tube and says for rear axles, some lubes will eat away at the RTV"s. If you are going to all this work try to use the best. Just my thoughts!
-
- Posts: 4358
- Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 12:18 pm
- First Name: Steve
- Last Name: Tomaso
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1914 Touring, 1919 Centerdoor, 1924 TT C-Cab Express, 1925 Racer
- Location: Longbranch, WA
- MTFCA Number: 14972
- MTFCI Number: 15411
- Board Member Since: 2001
Re: Sealing my 12 rivet rear end
I did mine prior to that "new" RTV coming out.
-
- Posts: 132
- Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 12:34 pm
- First Name: John
- Last Name: Cox
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1915 Runabout, 1925 Pickup
- Location: Tucson, Arizona
Re: Sealing my 12 rivet rear end
For years I have used Aviation Permatex which comes in a can as a thick liquid.
It appears to be alcohol based as it cleans up with alcohol.
Never gets hard and seems to seal well.
I also use a silk thread between case halves on aircraft engines.
It appears to be alcohol based as it cleans up with alcohol.
Never gets hard and seems to seal well.
I also use a silk thread between case halves on aircraft engines.
-
- Posts: 1057
- Joined: Thu Feb 21, 2019 1:20 pm
- First Name: Joe
- Last Name: Bell
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 24 Fordor
- Location: Tiffin Ohio
- MTFCI Number: 24066
Re: Sealing my 12 rivet rear end
John, just got done going through my 150 Franklin so I have been there also!
-
- Posts: 626
- Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 12:47 pm
- First Name: Frank
- Last Name: Seress
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1912 Towncar, 1915 Touring
- Location: Prescott, Arizona
- MTFCA Number: 27707
Re: Sealing my 12 rivet rear end
After going through all that work and expense of the rebuild I went out and bought a little more insurance in the form of a rear axle truss. The 12 rivet axle is more fragile than the newer axle and prone to leaking and coming loose especially with a heavier body and or having several people in the back seat on a regular basis. It works for me. Frank
-
Topic author - Posts: 6815
- Joined: Fri Jan 04, 2019 10:51 am
- First Name: Richard
- Last Name: Eagle
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1909 TR 1914 TR 1915 Rd 1920 Spdstr 1922 Coupe 1925 Tudor
- Location: Idaho Falls, ID
- MTFCA Number: 1219
- Contact:
Re: Sealing my 12 rivet rear end
Assembly of the unit went exceptionally well. The gasket sealer went on smooth as butter. Grease held the thrust washers in place. It was almost too easy. As I was bolting the halves together I noticed 4 roller bearings on the bench. Oops! Sometimes we aren't as smart as we thought.
Now the whole thing had to come back apart. Thrust washers fell to the floor. I kept putting fingers in the gasket sealer. It's odd how the whole project can go to heck in a handbasket.
The roller bearing grease got everywhere and dancing around trying to balance the axle vertically would have made a funny video on a different day. Thankfully the assembly did go back together before the sealer got too hard and with the inner rollers in place now. The axles did turn freely and all was well at last.
Just a touch of reality I guess.
Now the whole thing had to come back apart. Thrust washers fell to the floor. I kept putting fingers in the gasket sealer. It's odd how the whole project can go to heck in a handbasket.
The roller bearing grease got everywhere and dancing around trying to balance the axle vertically would have made a funny video on a different day. Thankfully the assembly did go back together before the sealer got too hard and with the inner rollers in place now. The axles did turn freely and all was well at last.
Just a touch of reality I guess.
When did I do that?
-
- Posts: 680
- Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2019 6:01 pm
- First Name: R.V.
- Last Name: Anderson
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1914, 1920, 1923, 1923
- Location: Kennedy, NY
Re: Sealing my 12 rivet rear end
I have one of those too, on my '14. I finally had to get one, as both rear wheels were canted inward about an inch at the top. It doesn't look as out of place as I thought it would.
When I rebuilt the axle, I soaked the housing assemblies in kerosene, then in xylene to get that out. When I was satisfied that all was squeaky clean, I let them dry good and then mig'd over the inside of the rivets and applied a fillet of JB Weld to the inside edges at the index of the bearing housing and the tube with a special applicator I cobbled up. It has worked great for 16 years, nary a seep at the rivets, just a drop now and then from the center seam, probably because of the same strain that tilted the wheels inward. That will get some attention over the winter.
Driving on the lunar landscapes that pass for roads here in NY probably exacerbated the situation. Glad to see they're finally starting to fix some of them, so I may be able to take the T out more.
When I rebuilt the axle, I soaked the housing assemblies in kerosene, then in xylene to get that out. When I was satisfied that all was squeaky clean, I let them dry good and then mig'd over the inside of the rivets and applied a fillet of JB Weld to the inside edges at the index of the bearing housing and the tube with a special applicator I cobbled up. It has worked great for 16 years, nary a seep at the rivets, just a drop now and then from the center seam, probably because of the same strain that tilted the wheels inward. That will get some attention over the winter.
Driving on the lunar landscapes that pass for roads here in NY probably exacerbated the situation. Glad to see they're finally starting to fix some of them, so I may be able to take the T out more.
-
Topic author - Posts: 6815
- Joined: Fri Jan 04, 2019 10:51 am
- First Name: Richard
- Last Name: Eagle
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1909 TR 1914 TR 1915 Rd 1920 Spdstr 1922 Coupe 1925 Tudor
- Location: Idaho Falls, ID
- MTFCA Number: 1219
- Contact:
Re: Sealing my 12 rivet rear end
I kind of like the looks of those truss rods. They add some charm to the rear axle.
While I was wrestling the axle unit around trying to reassemble it before the sealant dried I managed to put a scratch in the back of the body. Today was warm enough to get out and do some more work. I still have some of the Van Sickle green enamel I mixed up when I built the car. Like Dulux it has a good shelf life. Some narrow Scotch Magic tape was applied near the scratch and masking tape after that. Using a small brush I covered the scratch and removed the tapes when tacky. The paint shows but is less dramatic than the scratch. In time it will shrink and be less noticeable. Better paints work well but this is what I use. This car is a driver now and a few battle scars add to the game but don't have to be obvious.
While I was wrestling the axle unit around trying to reassemble it before the sealant dried I managed to put a scratch in the back of the body. Today was warm enough to get out and do some more work. I still have some of the Van Sickle green enamel I mixed up when I built the car. Like Dulux it has a good shelf life. Some narrow Scotch Magic tape was applied near the scratch and masking tape after that. Using a small brush I covered the scratch and removed the tapes when tacky. The paint shows but is less dramatic than the scratch. In time it will shrink and be less noticeable. Better paints work well but this is what I use. This car is a driver now and a few battle scars add to the game but don't have to be obvious.
When did I do that?
-
- Posts: 2260
- Joined: Sat Mar 09, 2019 2:05 am
- First Name: Brent
- Last Name: Burger
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1926 TT closed cab flatbed
- Location: Spokane, Wa.
- Board Member Since: 2014
Re: Sealing my 12 rivet rear end
Can you not wet sand that scratch repair to blend, and then a little hand buffing ?
More people are doing it today than ever before !
-
Topic author - Posts: 6815
- Joined: Fri Jan 04, 2019 10:51 am
- First Name: Richard
- Last Name: Eagle
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1909 TR 1914 TR 1915 Rd 1920 Spdstr 1922 Coupe 1925 Tudor
- Location: Idaho Falls, ID
- MTFCA Number: 1219
- Contact:
Re: Sealing my 12 rivet rear end
Van Sickle will keep drying and shrinking for several months. If I wait til next spring I could sand lightly and rub out. I works better than the Dulux I used for years. If it still bothers me I will do that. I have touched up several places over the years but forget where. It is that good.
Rich
Rich
When did I do that?