Need help reading part drawing on a Ford racer

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Need help reading part drawing on a Ford racer

Post by Rob » Thu Mar 26, 2020 3:25 pm

I’ve looked at this and looked at it for a few years. I believe this is either the top or side opening into the false tank used on one of the Ford Special racers. This “tank” is used to hide the back cylinder of a racer motor that extends through the firewall. I don’t have a photo of the other side, but am sure #4 cylinder exhaust pipe extends through it:

4F8B78FB-467B-4B65-AACA-5EF3D66C083C.png
The drawing instructs to drill four holes for #10 button head wood screws. That suggest to me the tank was made of wood, or more likely asbestos or heat tolerant material? Does the left side of the drawing indicate the flange is mounted vertically?

I’m not sure what the oval portion in the center of the flange is.

Could this be the exhaust opening? It looks like the flange is nickel plated brass. The racers all had rear gas and oil tanks, and I don’t believe this could work for an actual fuel, oil or other liquid tank, using only four screws to hold it in place. Especially true if it’s mounted vertically.

This racer has a false tank, with a top “fuel” cap. I think the cap, if functional, would allow use of a wrench to take out the dual ignition spark plugs on #4.
624A1FCA-475C-4773-AB7B-C559D2D4F53E.jpeg
624A1FCA-475C-4773-AB7B-C559D2D4F53E.jpeg (77.36 KiB) Viewed 702 times
The M-III racer also had four exhaust pipes, two bent and two straight:

5062261F-E0FA-4694-9FC7-6B9245D8917E.png

Thanks for thoughts and suggestions.


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Re: Need help reading part drawing on a Ford racer

Post by otrcman » Thu Mar 26, 2020 4:46 pm

Rob,

Is there a title block somewhere on the face of the drawing? We might get more clues there, i.e. title, date or whatever. Notice the the oval hole has an extension line to the words, "FILE FIT TO NOZZLE ON DASH TANK". What do you suppose that means ? To me, a nozzle is what's on the end of a hose, but this note suggests a nozzle protruding from the opening as for a "filler neck". One way or the other, the words on the lower left say, "Gas Tank Nozzle Flange", so I don't think the original intent of the designer was to accommodate an exhaust pipe.

Is it possible that this is a part that was originally drawn for another car and has been repurposed for #4 ? If we could see the title block, we might find out the original intent of the part.

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Re: Need help reading part drawing on a Ford racer

Post by George Mills » Thu Mar 26, 2020 5:18 pm

Rob,

I suspect that the oval egg u see in the front view, is a set of construction lines on what he intended to cover. Back in the days of ink and the blueish linen it was a very common practice to just leave the original pencil working marks.

I’m not saying it is, or isn’t, but the 2nd drawing may in fact go with the first! Imagine this, I slide the flange side facing right, from the left to the right on the pipe and at some point as the pipe diverts up, it’s cross section in a vertical plane would definitely be elliptical and perhaps even an egg...just my first guess, I haven’t even checked dimensions. 🤷‍♂️


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Re: Need help reading part drawing on a Ford racer

Post by Jerry VanOoteghem » Thu Mar 26, 2020 5:41 pm

Seems to suggest there is a nozzle that extends through the dash. My assumption is that the nozzle curves or angles upwards and that the oblong hole is to accommodate for that curvature or angle. The wood screw reference would suggest that this piece mounts to the wooden dash. If no such piece seems to exist in any known photos, then consider that it may never have been used. Not everything that was ever drawn was necessarily used. May never have made the "editor's cut", as it were.

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Re: Need help reading part drawing on a Ford racer

Post by Rob » Thu Mar 26, 2020 5:58 pm

Thanks guys. On these drawing, no signature, date or title blocks. The only identifier is the “M” and Roman numeral identifier. Having the advantage of seeing all that exist in a box at Benson Library, I know the “M-III” is the 300 cubic engine racer.

You all have have great information and ideas. I’ll attach the link to all my drawings. M and M-1 are the two big racers, 389 and 410 inch. If you look at these, you’ll see other bore/stroke dimensions in addition to the “M” identifier. One is the racer that was sent to France, specifically to stay under the 3 liter classification.

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/tmgiesefk0hn ... wRK-a?dl=0

The only drawings with a date are a few wire wheel spoke drawings. They were updated in 1914. I have a pretty good idea why.


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Re: Need help reading part drawing on a Ford racer

Post by Scott_Conger » Thu Mar 26, 2020 7:14 pm

I'm with Jerry

to your queston, no, the side view does not indicate that it was mounted vertically. It is a standard side view of the direct view, whose primary purpose is to indicating which direction the "pooch-out" goes in relation to the straight on view...meaning that the viewer looking at the straight on view should understand that the cut-out in the disk exists in a raised feature, raised to 7/16" to the specified radii. It is clear to me that this was meant to mount to a wood or wood-like material and that it was a dressing plate over a larger hole, with a 2" diameter pipe rising at an angle through it.

So, you tell US: what was the pipe and where did it go?

neither the file-to-fit opening in the part, nor the opening it covered, is really big enough for a hand to fit through (though you could sqeeze through a 4" hole, I don't think it is a servicible size). If it was a false cover to cover an access point, I would think it would have been made big enough to actually get into. I don't think it has a mysterious ulterior motive; rather, if it cannot be found on the "firewall" of the car in photos, then it was never used.

The only other explaination was that during testing or speed runs, there was in fact a very small fuel tank mounted on the engine side of the firewall, to the right side, and the main tank was left empty for weight savings. How's that for a WAG?
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Re: Need help reading part drawing on a Ford racer

Post by Rob » Thu Mar 26, 2020 9:53 pm

I don’t know. I wish there was more information, but there isn’t. As a result, we are speculating. I’m only able to go with what little I know. This doesn’t appear to be a viable “nozzle” point. It is listed as M-III, a specific application. That’s why I posted it.

Thanks for all your ideas,
Rob


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Re: Need help reading part drawing on a Ford racer

Post by Scott_Conger » Thu Mar 26, 2020 10:31 pm

Well, I cannot believe that I missed the note on the drawing AND Dick's pointing it out, but apparently my brain substituted "gas" for "dash. There was quite evidently some sort of tank with access through the firewall. It would be perfect for time trials or anything related to limited duration running.

Now, lets look at the "fake" tank and its angled top. Why is the top of it angled?

What if the fake tube coming out of the fake angled tank top, which coincidentally happens to appear to be the same angle that corresponded to the real "file-to-fit" bezel? I'm not so sure the top portion of your "fake" tank is in fact so fake and I think you just found the plate that dresses and finishes off a hole in what may be simply an enclosure which serves multiple purposes.

Regardless if there was indeed a small tank there or not, and the entire thing was indeed wholly subterfuge with no other function whatsoever, I still believe that your drawing is the bezel around the tube sticking out of the "tank".

Finally, as a side note, is there evidence that they were trying to hide a 6 cylinder engine? A straight six sounds entirely different than an inline 4 and I find it beyond comprehension that the piston-heads of the day could not tell the difference immediately, fake tank or no fake tank. I know nothing of these cars and have not followed your posts, so this is an honest question.
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Re: Need help reading part drawing on a Ford racer

Post by Kaiser » Fri Mar 27, 2020 6:32 am

Well... the drawing clearly mentions 'Gastank' in the lower left corner and 'Dash-tank' in the comment on the right side of the drawing, so it must have been drawn up for some dash mounted gas tank of some sort. As others here have mentioned there might have been plans to equip one of the racers with a small dash mounted gas tank but either Ford decided against it or it was built but there exist no pictures of it in that state and it was later converted to a rear mounted gas tank.
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Re: Need help reading part drawing on a Ford racer

Post by Atomic Amish » Fri Mar 27, 2020 7:16 am

I'm still going through all the drawings, but do have a question for Rob or anyone else that has built a speedster T.

Going by this drawing, how does it relate to the 'stock' T cam specs? This is for the intake lobes on M=III, it appears.

I'm just curious if it's more 'radical' than a stocker?
MIII Cam Specs.jpeg
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Re: Need help reading part drawing on a Ford racer

Post by Mark Nunn » Fri Mar 27, 2020 9:26 am

I can imagine there being a "dashtank" or "gastank" up front. If the racer was on a road course or flat track, the rear tank would supply fuel. However, when running in steep hill climb events, they may have needed a tank high up front to provide fuel. That's total speculation on my part.

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Re: Need help reading part drawing on a Ford racer

Post by Kaiser » Fri Mar 27, 2020 9:36 am

Acording to the drawing that cam gives 3/8 lift :o
Gross lift on a standard (post 1912) T cam is a hair over 1/4"
Exact measurements i found here: http://mtfctulsa.com/Cams/design_stock.htm
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Re: Need help reading part drawing on a Ford racer

Post by Rob » Fri Mar 27, 2020 9:45 am

Thanks again for all the educated guesses and ideas.

The few things I know, and think I know...........

It appears only the M-III had the “dashtank.” I’m still suspicious as to why this opening used wood screws, and only 4 at that, to attach it to whatever material the structure was made of.

There are reasons I believe the photo showing Frank Kulick seated in a racer with the false tank on the back of the firewall. One is the positioning of the motor. M—III has drawings for a fan, while M and M-I (the largest racer motors) didn’t have a fan. That allowed those two motors to be pushed farther forward. This photo shows the 410 cubic motor in the racer at The Henry Ford. The M-III didn’t compete at Algonquin and the ensuing track racing in Chicago:
35ACE3F1-0E50-4AEB-83D3-C018B898B137.jpeg

Disposing of the fan allows the large motor to be “pushed forward” right up to the front of the radiator space.

The smaller special motors fit within the hood space, using a Torpedo hood for a few extra inches. This photo shows, while not clearly, the exhaust side of the 228 cubic inch motor, raced in the 161 - 230 cubic inch class. The motor fits within the standard hood area. This racer has the passenger seat removed, and the smallest of the fuel tanks I’ve seen on the racer photos I’ve seen (and I’ve found quite a few).

0F2A2E40-28CF-4EB6-9694-A7487A0D7F2B.jpeg
The photo below shows the 389 cubic inch racer at Algonquin Hill Climb in June, 1911. It has the large tank on it, probably because it was going to be used a few days later for a 50 mile race that was going to include the Blitzen Benz. My guess is, if Ford was going to use such a small ‘dash tank,” the hill climbs would have been the time to use it. However, if that were the case I would think the main tank would have been removed. In addition, the fuel tanks also hold the oil reservoir. When the slide is opened on the auxiliary exhaust ports, a good amount of oil is thrown out too. I doubt the racers would have competed without the oil reserve.
93E366E7-F5D3-4A89-B434-A7EF2DD4B5D7.jpeg

Another view of the large racer (389 c.i.) at Algonquin 1911. The racer was using a 1:1.5 differential ratio. Look how large the “pumpkin” is. One way of identifying this racer is due to two brake rods to each back wheel. The later 410 c.i. V nose racer went to just external brakes. The racer at the top, with Kulick seated on it, has only internal “T” style brakes and brake rod:

A5DF7A13-2119-499E-898F-6F9CFA2CD778.jpeg

Much as I’d like to, from my “Model K perspective,” I’ve found no evidence of a six cylinder motor. We have the Rememberance of the head designer, Joe Galamb, and while he speaks specifically about the exhaust ports and Henry Ford’s desire to build a racer to beat the Blitzen Benz, and look like a standard Model T, there is no mention of a six cylinder motor.

There is one reference to a reporter seeing what looked like six cylinders when he saw the hood raised on one of the racers. He said he saw six spark plugs under the hood. I believe that reporter actually saw the same racer Kulick is seated in (our motor), and saw the dual ignition six plugs that are under the hood. The other two spark plugs are “hidden” on the driver/passenger side of the firewall.

Below is a comparison of the M-III camshaft with a standard Model T cam:

4D9F2839-E80D-4823-B6FF-4CAECC863F5A.png

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Re: Need help reading part drawing on a Ford racer

Post by Atomic Amish » Fri Mar 27, 2020 2:36 pm

Thanks, Kaiser! Great link.

And to you as well, Rob. The visual makes it pretty obvious the differences.
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Re: Need help reading part drawing on a Ford racer

Post by Jerry VanOoteghem » Fri Mar 27, 2020 7:18 pm

Rob,

"I’m still suspicious as to why this opening used wood screws, and only 4 at that, to attach it to whatever material the structure was made of."

Because 4 wood screws would be all that's needed to mount a simple bezel plate, which is what this appears to be. In other words, it's a trim piece and nothing "structural".

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Re: Need help reading part drawing on a Ford racer

Post by Rob » Fri Mar 27, 2020 11:29 pm

Jerry,
“ In other words, it's a trim piece and nothing "structural".”

Obviously it’s not structural. Also, it’s not sealing or containing liquid. I think it’s a faceplate/flange for either the exhaust pipe, which must exit the “dashtank””,” or part of the top of the dashtank. What I know is this is an M-III drawing, because it’s written on the drawing. I know the M-III motor is the one we have, because the other M-III drawing specs match our motor. And I know the engine has to protrude rearward from the firewall, because there isn’t room for the motor, snout that holds the crank, and fan. I know the M-I and M motors didn’t use fans, and I believe Ford used this as a way to “hide” these large power plants within a Model T chassis.

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Re: Need help reading part drawing on a Ford racer

Post by John Warren » Sat Mar 28, 2020 9:59 am

I second the trim piece notion. Great stuff as always. Thanks
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Re: Need help reading part drawing on a Ford racer

Post by Drkbp » Sat Mar 28, 2020 11:56 am

Just a little drift from the trim piece.....

Drawing 116 in the Drop Box had an interesting "Also 3 13/16 eng" note added in the left lower corner.

A reference to the 3-13/16" bore x 5" stroke, 228.3 cubic inch engine that Frank Kulich raced as the 3 Car against the Mason 6 Car in the June 1912 Algonquin.

Could look at those drawings for hours!
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ALSO NOTE- 3-13-16 BORE = 228.3 CUBIC INCH ENGINE --DRAWING NUMBER 116.jpg


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Re: Need help reading part drawing on a Ford racer

Post by Dropacent » Sat Mar 28, 2020 12:11 pm

5C47A540-2762-4C5A-A384-1CA1BC5149DB.jpeg

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Re: Need help reading part drawing on a Ford racer

Post by KWTownsend » Sat Mar 28, 2020 12:29 pm

Rob-
I looks to me like the "dash tank" extends about 6" past the dash.
It looks like this trim piece goes on the sloping top and it is an access cover to get to the back cylinders hidden by the wooden shroud.
Just take out the four wood screw and you have 4" hole to reach in and access the hidden cylinder, spark plug etc.

However, it sure looks like the back of the block under the dash tank, but it could be a tank for hill climbing.
It looks like a filler plug extends through the hole in the trim piece. But why specify nickel plate?
Kulick dash tank 2.jpg
Are we seeing a filler plug? Where was the ignition switch for this race car? That would be a convenient location.

: ^ )

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Re: Need help reading part drawing on a Ford racer

Post by KWTownsend » Sat Mar 28, 2020 12:42 pm

I played with the image a little to clean it up.
Kulick dash tank 2.1.jpg
It looks like the dash tank shroud is held on with two bolts on top.


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Re: Need help reading part drawing on a Ford racer

Post by Jerry VanOoteghem » Sat Mar 28, 2020 12:54 pm

Rob wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 11:29 pm
Jerry,
“ In other words, it's a trim piece and nothing "structural".”

Obviously it’s not structural. Also, it’s not sealing or containing liquid. I think it’s a faceplate/flange for either the exhaust pipe, which must exit the “dashtank””,” or part of the top of the dashtank. What I know is this is an M-III drawing, because it’s written on the drawing. I know the M-III motor is the one we have, because the other M-III drawing specs match our motor. And I know the engine has to protrude rearward from the firewall, because there isn’t room for the motor, snout that holds the crank, and fan. I know the M-I and M motors didn’t use fans, and I believe Ford used this as a way to “hide” these large power plants within a Model T chassis.

If it were meant to trim the exhaust pipe, I would think that the note, "File to fit nozzle on dashtank", would make no sense. I don't believe a designer would refer to the exhaust pipe as a "nozzle". Also, the mention of not being structural was meant more to answer your doubts over why only 4 wood screws, and not to so much to convince you of the nature of its use.


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Re: Need help reading part drawing on a Ford racer

Post by Scott_Conger » Sat Mar 28, 2020 3:37 pm

Jerry

and by scaling, one can even see what has to be a 2" or extremely similar pipe rising out of the sloped panel. It was visible in further distance shots, but with the photo blown up it is quite evident and easily estimated as to size. Childs construction paper trimmed and laid at that angle with a 2" diamater paper tube protruding straignt up will provide strong evidence for what? Maybe a fuel filler pipe. Or hiding access to swing a stilson wrench on a hidden spark plug, or tightening the rear intake/exhaust manifold stud or possibly even an exhaust pipe blasting in the driver's face, who knows? If it is an exhaust pipe the nickle plate could be a temperature gauge that the fuel is too lean when it turns light gold too quickly.
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Re: Need help reading part drawing on a Ford racer

Post by Rob » Sun Mar 29, 2020 5:45 pm

Tim, yes, I believe that’s the 228 motor mentioned. I hope someday someone finds more drawings, to better differentiate the racers.

Scott, I had not thought of the the “pipe” idea from the drawing. I believed all along that it’s either the faceplate, as tim point to above (red arrow), or the faceplate for the exhaust pipe on the right side. As the engine in the “M-III: motor sits in the car (and we know it’s sitting in properly, because of where the front snout/crank support of the motor must be placed on the frame. Using a torpedo hood, we were able to push the firewall back (this project began many years ago with only the 300 cubic inch motor). One suggestion is that this has been a project since the mid 50’s.

Anyway, the point being, the exhaust must exit the false dashtank. #4 cylinder sits mostly behind the firewall, and is too close to consider running a header forward to exit the hood. Fortunately, we also have the exhaust pipe drawings for M-III. The drawings call for two bent and two straight pipes.

DFBC90FF-E0AD-424A-BC56-6B3CEB1CADB2.jpeg

I had four pipes made to specs, and this is how they line up.

2B3B8A07-B067-4E43-8C6F-A3B2682C370B.jpeg
With the hood on, the front, bent pipe misses the center hood strap, allowing it to be centered and evenly between exhaust pipes from #1 and #2 cylinder. While the photo wasn’t taken for this purpose, you can also see where #4 exits behind the firewall. It’s this only reasonable way to exhaust #4.

Below is the 410 c.i. racer motor.

FBE149E4-1FC7-4B47-9E9F-B0C1C338BE59.png

We also have the drawings for what I believe is the 389 cu. in. motor showing three slightly bent and one significantly bent exhaust pipes. I don’t know how the “M” racer was configured. It could be that the three slightly bent pipes were on the first three cylinders, possibly turned forward, and maybe the number 4 cyl used the significantly bent exhaust, to get it clear of the firewall and hood former? The 389 and 410 c.i. racer motors could be forward than M-III because they didn’t have a fan.

A9F62CD6-2A88-4E82-AC51-A3C7F3DD03BA.jpeg
7FF944E1-C1D2-4CD9-84D6-BB5A780DA0BA.jpeg

If this is the exhaust faceplate, it would explain the vertical drawing. If it is a dashtank top faceplate, I would think there would be threads for the cap that’s seen on Kulick’s racer, and I also think the drawing would represent the angle that faceplate would be. Thanks for all your ideas and suggestions,
Rob

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