Getting Rattles Back On The Road

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Mopar_man
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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by Mopar_man » Sat Mar 21, 2020 4:03 pm

J&M Machine just sent some more pictures of the gears getting done.
gear.jpg
Triple Gears.jpg

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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by Mopar_man » Tue Mar 24, 2020 9:04 pm

Well this is what you get when you combine two hobbies. I used to restore old clocks and had this big tumbler with steel shot that was used to clean up the parts. I decided to try it on some bolts. It worked ok and didn't mess up the threads. I used Dawn soap and water.
IMG_3329.jpeg
IMG_3330.jpeg

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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by Mopar_man » Thu Mar 26, 2020 10:16 pm

Well today J&M Machine sent me some pictures of the balancing process. John told me that this was not done by the factory but will sure make a big difference in keeping the "Rattles" out of it. Ha!! What a neat process and John and Michael are great to deal with. Unfortunately for me Most everything In my transmission was cracked or broken. I have seen first hand how the cost of doing it right can add up. I'm ok with that. This car is defiantly not an investment it's for the family to have fun and I plan on keeping it for a long time. If I learned anything it's that the Model T has to have everything working together. If not you run the risk of things "coming from together".

So let's get to the eye candy.

The pins pressed into the flywheel.
Pins in.jpg
Magnets going on.
Mags going on.jpg
Mags all on.jpg
on the balance machine. I couldn't get the stats to post but the flywheel was off. John said that's why it's so important to balance it. After you take all the magnets off and on and get it all together it's off.
Balence machine.jpg
Removing some material.
removing materal.jpg

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Mopar_man
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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by Mopar_man » Thu Mar 26, 2020 10:16 pm

After it was done the whole thing was surfaced so when I set the gap it will easer.
Mags on.jpg

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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by Mopar_man » Fri Mar 27, 2020 8:03 pm

Got this out of sequence. The flywheel gets surfaced first then balanced. seem logical since you are removing material.

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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by Mopar_man » Fri Mar 27, 2020 8:55 pm

So I'm going to quote from John at J&M. "I balanced the triple gears today as tat is part of the flywheel balancing. They need to be weight matched. Have a look at the pictures off at 4 grams. After a spin in the lathe I have them at 3 tenths of a gram."
gear weight.jpg
gear.jpg


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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by SteveTN » Sat Mar 28, 2020 11:13 am

Kicked you a note on the wrench for the transmission bolts.

Was the original "horse shoe" shim (that's what I call it anyway) there when you pulled the transmission? In my (somewhat limited) experience it makes resetting easier. If you have it keep it.

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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by Mopar_man » Sat Mar 28, 2020 8:47 pm

Well today I took out the valves I was able to use a Brigs and Stratton valve spring compressor. Most came right out but some had some sticky oil. I was able to pull them out with my hands. I numbered them 1-8 and then put each in a plastic bag that was numbered. I'm going to clean them up and then lap them in.
IMG_3336.jpeg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=De-e_6LKYBw


Then I found my first repair.
IMG_3339.jpeg
Also looks like the cover was not centered on the CAM shaft.
IMG_3338.jpeg


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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by Scott_Conger » Sat Mar 28, 2020 9:54 pm

- New valves are not all that expensive...buy 8
- take the new valves to a good shop and have them kiss them incase one or more has shipping damage (they only come in a little paper sleeve)
a cheap can of clover valve grinding paste is one of the most expensive things you can buy for your car. I leave it on the shelf at the store for the guys who have money to install valve seats after wrecking their block with the stuff.
- buy or borrow a Neway carbide cutter kit and do a correct 3 angle seat with the exactly correct seat width
- verify your work with a schmeer of prussian blue and continue to fend off the desire to "just do a little kiss" on the valves with paste. The cutter is all you need.
- contratulate yourself for not falling into the "back in the day" syndrome and doing a tidy professional job with modern tools and methods. If everything was better then, we'd still be drilling teeth with foot powered drills and we'd be buying Heroin for our cough, from Bayer Pharmaceuticals (today you can get it outside of a pharmacy if you know the right person, so there is that, though).

Feel free to email me with questions
Scott Conger

Full Flow Float Valves - deliver fuel like Henry intended!

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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by Mopar_man » Sat Mar 28, 2020 11:22 pm

Scott I agree with what you are saying. The right way to do the valves would be new valves, springs, Valve guides, and hardened seats. My goal with this engine was to fix the transmission and drive it. As I started to take it apart I found some things that were done incorrectly. I'm trying to fix those items without having to rebuild the whole engine. I had to replace almost everything in the transmission because of cracks. I'm hoping to get away with checking things on the engine and not have to put more money into it. I know this is not the "right" way to do this. A total rebuild would be the correct thing to do. I'm glad I did what had to be done in the transmission. I very well could be brining the short block to J&M in the future. What I'm hoping for is the engine to run and not have a catastrophic failure. If it does then I'll have to rebuild it anyway. Time will tell if after weighing the risks I made the right decision or not. Thanks for the input and please keep it coming.


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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by Scott C. » Sat Mar 28, 2020 11:25 pm

That one valve, still in the block in your video looks to be fairly new. You might want to measure the valve stems with a micrometer. As well as the valve guide ID. They may very well be over size. That might explain the sticking, if someone used a worn reamer on the guides? Also, check the valve stems for wear and taper. If you see more than .002" replace them. I would have the valves ground to make sure that they are concentric and at the proper angle. When I was in the business, I ground every new valve to make sure they were right before I installed them. The seats look pretty good other than that one. But, I would have them ground also just to be sure that the valves seat properly. Then there will be no need to lap them. The valves should be ground at 44 degrees and the seats at 45. The 1 degree interference makes for a better seal. The "3 angle" is just cutting the top and bottom to control the seat contact area and width. The top of the seat is usually ground at either 15 or 30 degrees and the bottom at 60 degrees.


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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by Scott C. » Sat Mar 28, 2020 11:30 pm

I would also replace that front cover. There are plenty of them out there.

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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by Mopar_man » Sun Mar 29, 2020 10:08 am

Scott I was thinking the same thing. I'm going to take it off and see how they did the job.


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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by Scott_Conger » Sun Mar 29, 2020 2:56 pm

Robert, part of your self-description to "do it right" included valve seats. All of that takes a machine shop of course. Trust me a Neway cutter and new valves is a very good step in the right direction and is short of a major rebuild, (compared to lapping), "doing it right". A very credible job can be done on an old engine which will renew the pep in it's step. Far too many engines are simply sent to rebuilders because the owner either lacked the diagnostic skills or repair skills which may, with our amount of driving, have been able to put another 10-15 years on the car easily, and never visit the inside of a shop. So many new owners and a shocking number of seasoned owners will say "well, it developed a knock...off to the rebuilder it goes", and that's too bad. New engines are wonderful, but not everyone is climbing Mt. Evans or running the Mt 500 (and I'd wager that more than one "seasoned" engine has competed in a MT 500 over the years...they're not all fresh out of the babbit shop).
Scott Conger

Full Flow Float Valves - deliver fuel like Henry intended!

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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by Mopar_man » Sun Mar 29, 2020 11:13 pm

Scott Conger and Scott C,
Does the Neway cutter also do the valves or just the seats. If I got new valves how are the 3 angle cuts made. Is that done at a machine shop? I saw how the cutter is used putting a mandrel in the valve guide and turning it to do the seat. Once that is done is it necessary to match the valves to the seats or is that done with cutting the 3 angles?


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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by Scott C. » Mon Mar 30, 2020 12:27 am

Grinding the seats with a grinder or a cutter is typically done at a machine shop. But, some guys do have there own equipment. The valves need be faced in a valve grinder. Once the this is done and the seats are machined. Any valve could go in any seat. However, unless you have adjustable lifters, each valve stem end needs to be ground to set the valve lash. Then each valve needs to be kept in order. The valves do not need 3 angles ground on them, just the 44 degree face. The seats really do not need 3 angles either. The 45 degree is the face. The 60 degree is under the 45 and narrows the seat contact area and gives better air flow for the Hi Po guys. The 15, or 30 degree does the most for narrowing the seat. It moves the contact area away from the outer edge of the valve, thus making it run a little cooler. Again it also helps air flow. Any competent machinist should understand how to properly machine the valves and seats, The NewWay cutter just makes it quick and easy, compared to traditional grinding with stones.

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