Getting Rattles Back On The Road

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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by Mopar_man » Sat Mar 21, 2020 4:03 pm

J&M Machine just sent some more pictures of the gears getting done.
gear.jpg
Triple Gears.jpg

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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by Mopar_man » Tue Mar 24, 2020 9:04 pm

Well this is what you get when you combine two hobbies. I used to restore old clocks and had this big tumbler with steel shot that was used to clean up the parts. I decided to try it on some bolts. It worked ok and didn't mess up the threads. I used Dawn soap and water.
IMG_3329.jpeg
IMG_3330.jpeg

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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by Mopar_man » Thu Mar 26, 2020 10:16 pm

Well today J&M Machine sent me some pictures of the balancing process. John told me that this was not done by the factory but will sure make a big difference in keeping the "Rattles" out of it. Ha!! What a neat process and John and Michael are great to deal with. Unfortunately for me Most everything In my transmission was cracked or broken. I have seen first hand how the cost of doing it right can add up. I'm ok with that. This car is defiantly not an investment it's for the family to have fun and I plan on keeping it for a long time. If I learned anything it's that the Model T has to have everything working together. If not you run the risk of things "coming from together".

So let's get to the eye candy.

The pins pressed into the flywheel.
Pins in.jpg
Magnets going on.
Mags going on.jpg
Mags all on.jpg
on the balance machine. I couldn't get the stats to post but the flywheel was off. John said that's why it's so important to balance it. After you take all the magnets off and on and get it all together it's off.
Balence machine.jpg
Removing some material.
removing materal.jpg

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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by Mopar_man » Thu Mar 26, 2020 10:16 pm

After it was done the whole thing was surfaced so when I set the gap it will easer.
Mags on.jpg

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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by Mopar_man » Fri Mar 27, 2020 8:03 pm

Got this out of sequence. The flywheel gets surfaced first then balanced. seem logical since you are removing material.

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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by Mopar_man » Fri Mar 27, 2020 8:55 pm

So I'm going to quote from John at J&M. "I balanced the triple gears today as tat is part of the flywheel balancing. They need to be weight matched. Have a look at the pictures off at 4 grams. After a spin in the lathe I have them at 3 tenths of a gram."
gear weight.jpg
gear.jpg


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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by SteveTN » Sat Mar 28, 2020 11:13 am

Kicked you a note on the wrench for the transmission bolts.

Was the original "horse shoe" shim (that's what I call it anyway) there when you pulled the transmission? In my (somewhat limited) experience it makes resetting easier. If you have it keep it.

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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by Mopar_man » Sat Mar 28, 2020 8:47 pm

Well today I took out the valves I was able to use a Brigs and Stratton valve spring compressor. Most came right out but some had some sticky oil. I was able to pull them out with my hands. I numbered them 1-8 and then put each in a plastic bag that was numbered. I'm going to clean them up and then lap them in.
IMG_3336.jpeg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=De-e_6LKYBw


Then I found my first repair.
IMG_3339.jpeg
Also looks like the cover was not centered on the CAM shaft.
IMG_3338.jpeg


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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by Scott_Conger » Sat Mar 28, 2020 9:54 pm

- New valves are not all that expensive...buy 8
- take the new valves to a good shop and have them kiss them incase one or more has shipping damage (they only come in a little paper sleeve)
a cheap can of clover valve grinding paste is one of the most expensive things you can buy for your car. I leave it on the shelf at the store for the guys who have money to install valve seats after wrecking their block with the stuff.
- buy or borrow a Neway carbide cutter kit and do a correct 3 angle seat with the exactly correct seat width
- verify your work with a schmeer of prussian blue and continue to fend off the desire to "just do a little kiss" on the valves with paste. The cutter is all you need.
- contratulate yourself for not falling into the "back in the day" syndrome and doing a tidy professional job with modern tools and methods. If everything was better then, we'd still be drilling teeth with foot powered drills and we'd be buying Heroin for our cough, from Bayer Pharmaceuticals (today you can get it outside of a pharmacy if you know the right person, so there is that, though).

Feel free to email me with questions
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Full Flow Float Valves - deliver fuel like Henry intended!

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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by Mopar_man » Sat Mar 28, 2020 11:22 pm

Scott I agree with what you are saying. The right way to do the valves would be new valves, springs, Valve guides, and hardened seats. My goal with this engine was to fix the transmission and drive it. As I started to take it apart I found some things that were done incorrectly. I'm trying to fix those items without having to rebuild the whole engine. I had to replace almost everything in the transmission because of cracks. I'm hoping to get away with checking things on the engine and not have to put more money into it. I know this is not the "right" way to do this. A total rebuild would be the correct thing to do. I'm glad I did what had to be done in the transmission. I very well could be brining the short block to J&M in the future. What I'm hoping for is the engine to run and not have a catastrophic failure. If it does then I'll have to rebuild it anyway. Time will tell if after weighing the risks I made the right decision or not. Thanks for the input and please keep it coming.


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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by Scott C. » Sat Mar 28, 2020 11:25 pm

That one valve, still in the block in your video looks to be fairly new. You might want to measure the valve stems with a micrometer. As well as the valve guide ID. They may very well be over size. That might explain the sticking, if someone used a worn reamer on the guides? Also, check the valve stems for wear and taper. If you see more than .002" replace them. I would have the valves ground to make sure that they are concentric and at the proper angle. When I was in the business, I ground every new valve to make sure they were right before I installed them. The seats look pretty good other than that one. But, I would have them ground also just to be sure that the valves seat properly. Then there will be no need to lap them. The valves should be ground at 44 degrees and the seats at 45. The 1 degree interference makes for a better seal. The "3 angle" is just cutting the top and bottom to control the seat contact area and width. The top of the seat is usually ground at either 15 or 30 degrees and the bottom at 60 degrees.


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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by Scott C. » Sat Mar 28, 2020 11:30 pm

I would also replace that front cover. There are plenty of them out there.

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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by Mopar_man » Sun Mar 29, 2020 10:08 am

Scott I was thinking the same thing. I'm going to take it off and see how they did the job.


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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by Scott_Conger » Sun Mar 29, 2020 2:56 pm

Robert, part of your self-description to "do it right" included valve seats. All of that takes a machine shop of course. Trust me a Neway cutter and new valves is a very good step in the right direction and is short of a major rebuild, (compared to lapping), "doing it right". A very credible job can be done on an old engine which will renew the pep in it's step. Far too many engines are simply sent to rebuilders because the owner either lacked the diagnostic skills or repair skills which may, with our amount of driving, have been able to put another 10-15 years on the car easily, and never visit the inside of a shop. So many new owners and a shocking number of seasoned owners will say "well, it developed a knock...off to the rebuilder it goes", and that's too bad. New engines are wonderful, but not everyone is climbing Mt. Evans or running the Mt 500 (and I'd wager that more than one "seasoned" engine has competed in a MT 500 over the years...they're not all fresh out of the babbit shop).
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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by Mopar_man » Sun Mar 29, 2020 11:13 pm

Scott Conger and Scott C,
Does the Neway cutter also do the valves or just the seats. If I got new valves how are the 3 angle cuts made. Is that done at a machine shop? I saw how the cutter is used putting a mandrel in the valve guide and turning it to do the seat. Once that is done is it necessary to match the valves to the seats or is that done with cutting the 3 angles?


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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by Scott C. » Mon Mar 30, 2020 12:27 am

Grinding the seats with a grinder or a cutter is typically done at a machine shop. But, some guys do have there own equipment. The valves need be faced in a valve grinder. Once the this is done and the seats are machined. Any valve could go in any seat. However, unless you have adjustable lifters, each valve stem end needs to be ground to set the valve lash. Then each valve needs to be kept in order. The valves do not need 3 angles ground on them, just the 44 degree face. The seats really do not need 3 angles either. The 45 degree is the face. The 60 degree is under the 45 and narrows the seat contact area and gives better air flow for the Hi Po guys. The 15, or 30 degree does the most for narrowing the seat. It moves the contact area away from the outer edge of the valve, thus making it run a little cooler. Again it also helps air flow. Any competent machinist should understand how to properly machine the valves and seats, The NewWay cutter just makes it quick and easy, compared to traditional grinding with stones.

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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by Mopar_man » Sun Apr 05, 2020 9:44 am

Well I got some more parts in the mail. I just need the centering tool for the cam shaft cover. It's on the way soon. Just got this cam shaft gear and the blots for the oil pan. The last guy used regular bolts with no holes for the cotter pins. See I now have a brass car. Ha Ha Ha. To bad no-one will ever see it.
IMG_3353.jpeg

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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by Susanne » Sun Apr 05, 2020 7:08 pm

Mopar_man wrote:
Sun Apr 05, 2020 9:44 am
Well I got some more parts in the mail. I just need the centering tool for the cam shaft cover. It's on the way soon. Just got this cam shaft gear and the blots for the oil pan. The last guy used regular bolts with no holes for the cotter pins. See I now have a brass car. Ha Ha Ha. To bad no-one will ever see it.

IMG_3353.jpeg
Thank you, that reminds me, I need to get hold of Dan for cam gears... one of the '15 (don;'t like the fiber one on there), one for the '17 engine build...


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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by Scott_Conger » Sun Apr 05, 2020 7:42 pm

Robert

I'm going to enclose a link which pretty much explains the cutters and how they work and how one or more posters felt that they worked. The set purchased by the OP in this thread purchased the valve resurfacer also. I would recommend sending valves to a shop to be finished even if they are new (cheap insurance for a multitude of problems which could creep up in shipping, stocking, and shipping again) and saving your money by not purchasing that accessory.

The 46 degree seat as well as top cut and bottom cut are described in the link. The top and bottom cuts work to place the valve seat where it belongs as well as narrowing it sufficiently such that the relatively weak valve springs will place enough pressure/sq. inch of face that they seal tightly and can bust up any stray carbon that gets caught...a wider seat will have very low seat pressure vs area and carbon will have a much better opportunity to lock a valve slightly open and cause burning in short order. As an example, a family in two early cars came through Yellowstone on their way from California to Va. They made the assault into Yellowstone from the west, but while in Yellowstone, one car became lame and had a rough time making it to Cody. By the time they made it 35 miles to my home, they were on two cylinders. Two exhaust valves were eaten 1/2 off and the seats were severely burned/pitted. All in about 125 miles. Neway and I sent them on their way in a couple days. Can't say enough good about the tool. If you do not see a future need for the tool, some one will likely loan or rent you what you need.

http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/50 ... 1221103739
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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by Mopar_man » Tue Apr 07, 2020 2:35 pm

Thanks Scott!

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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by Mopar_man » Sun Apr 12, 2020 6:54 pm

So tonight I tried to get the CAM out. I posted about that in another thread. So here is what I did today.

First I pulled off the roller and saved all this in a plastic bag.
IMG_3370.jpeg
Next the felt washer came out. I'm going to use a neoprene one.
IMG_3371.jpeg
To get the cam out first the cover had to come off. You can see the repair on the cover. Not sure if this is JB Weld or brazed.
IMG_3377.jpeg
The generator bracket after painting.
IMG_3378.jpeg
To take out the CAM you have to remove these two bolts.
IMG_3374.jpeg

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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by Mopar_man » Sun Apr 12, 2020 7:04 pm

Here is a video I made to show what I was doing.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F3Vspt_A3ks

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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by Mopar_man » Mon Apr 13, 2020 9:23 pm

Well tonight I got the CAM Shaft out and the new CAM gear on.
IMG_3388.jpeg
I'm not sure this CAM bearing was in correct. The notch was not towards the back of the motor when installed. So the top part of this picture was facing the back of the motor.
IMG_3389.jpeg
Looking at this part of the valve seat it looks like it has hardened seats installed.
IMG_3391.jpeg

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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by Mopar_man » Thu Apr 23, 2020 10:09 pm

So today I received my transmission in the mail. I opened up the boxes and It was like Christmas morning. The guys at J&M Machine did a great job and I can't say enough great things about them.
IMG_3413.jpeg
IMG_3411.jpeg
IMG_3414.jpeg
IMG_3415.jpeg

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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by Mopar_man » Thu Apr 23, 2020 10:12 pm

I also painted the Timing cover and Crank pulley.
IMG_3416.jpeg
I was also able to fit the center bearing on the cam shaft and get it to slide into the block. I thought I was going to have an issue with it but it went in just fine.

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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by Mopar_man » Sun May 03, 2020 9:33 pm

Well It's been a while since I've been able to get out to the garage. Today I got the Cam Shaft in.
IMG_3450.jpeg

For those who have never had a Cam Shaft out of a T before these two blots have a dowel end and hold two Cam Shaft bearings in place. The end of the shaft is supported by the block.
IMG_3451.jpeg
So now that I have adjustable lifters I have to grind off about 1/16th of an inch of the valve stem. You can see how much it sticks out of the seat. The cam lobe is on the low side and the adjustment is run down but also allowing for some adjustment.
IMG_3452.jpeg
I also got some cleaning done on the pan. I ran this part through the blaster.
IMG_3453.jpeg

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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by Mopar_man » Sun May 10, 2020 4:02 pm

So today I was able to put the timing cover on as well as the generator bracket. I hope I did it correctly. Here is how it went.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HZOtiRKoP9M

The tool made it seem easy to align the cover.
IMG_3467.jpeg
I used the new kind of seal. It fit well but I added a layer of sealant. I'm letting it dry for 24 hours.
IMG_3469.jpeg
Then I moved to fiting the shaft to the flywheel. Michael from J&M said that the new shaft may not fit into the flywheel hole. It seemed to go right in with no issue.
IMG_3470.jpeg
Now will come the fun part of shimming the Mag ring. I'm going to try the method that was described in the MTFCA Magazine.

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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by Mopar_man » Thu May 14, 2020 10:25 pm

So tonight after work (I still work for the Marine Corps, now as a civilian. Grateful that I can work from home) I started putting the valves together. Big thanks to John and Mike at J&M Machine. I sent the valves out to have a bit taken off the ends so they would fit with adjustable lifters. They turned them out in a day. I can't sing their praises enough. If you have machine work to do have them do it. You won't be sorry.

So first I made sure that the cam was on the back of the lobe. Then I got the gap adjusted to .015.
IMG_3476.jpeg
Then I put a bit of assembly lube on the valve stem and put the spring in with the keepers. When I see a Model T spring compressor I'm buying it. The small one I'm using is a bit awkward.
IMG_3477.jpeg
Then I turned the engine over and gave it a bit of a tap with a hammer to make sure that everything stayed together.
IMG_3478.jpeg
Still have a few more to go. Slow and steady is i don't make mistakes. I hope.


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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by Scott C. » Fri May 15, 2020 12:41 am

Your coming along really well. You will have a nice running T when your done. I am anxious to see a video of it running!!

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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by Mopar_man » Fri May 15, 2020 7:29 am

So am I. I still need to work on the steering column, coil box, and all the wiring. Lot's more to do but it's coming along.

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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by Mopar_man » Sat May 23, 2020 10:57 pm

Well I ran into a road block with the valves. The car had chevy valves installed and when i added adjustable lifters I had to have them shortened. Well the issue that I now have is that some of the seats were replaced and the valves fit fine. However, the ones with no seat were still too long. Can't take anymore off the stem so........ I ordered all new valves that were .30 over with pins instead of keepers. I'll install these and measure each one Then have the ends ground to fit.

Today I cleaned up the pan.
IMG_3494.jpeg
IMG_3496.jpeg
I was able to get it in the blast cabinet.
IMG_3495.jpeg
Then I flushed the radiator. I had posted about that in another thread.
IMG_3493.jpeg
I also took out the car and cleaned up a lot of the dirt and junk that was all over the firewall. As I was doing all this the mailman came with my valves from Lang's. He asked to take a look at the cars and really liked the T.


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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by OilyBill » Sun May 24, 2020 12:33 am

A couple things that someone else may have mentioned, but maybe not.
Cotter pins in the upper steering quadrant at the steering wheel: I don't know why Ford made them this way, except maybe to save money in manufacturing. I very carefully drill out the rivets, then thread the holes, and when I reinstall the quadrant casting, I use some nickel-plated round head screws. They look nice, and although they are NOT original, the do allow you to maintain your steering column much more easily.
"Black Beauty abrasive: I had the same problem. What I wound up doing is making a frame to hold some steel window screen over a bucket, then scoop the Black Beauty out of the bag, and screen it through into the bucket. You will find a number of particles that are too large to fit through the screen, and therefore, they will constantly clog up you blast cabinet. It only takes about 10 minutes to screen a 90 lb. bag of Black Beauty. Since all my screened abrasive is in buckets, I can put a lid on them to keep the material clean, and I also know that whatever is in the bucket is good material, ready to go. Once you have screened the material, you will find it works REALLY nice.

I have multiple cabinets, so after a while, I dump the abrasive from the "Heavy" cabinet (that gets the fresh-screened sand) and wash it with water to flush out the dirt and rust particles, and let it dry. It then goes in the "Second" cabinet, where the abrasive is now worn down and much finer, and gives a very gentle finish to delicate parts, like thin sheet metal brackets, and other small items.
Black Beauty is wonderful to use, and I think is a lot safer than actual sand, since it is copper smelting slag, and not sand.

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Re: Getting Rattles Back On The Road

Post by Mopar_man » Sun May 24, 2020 7:19 am

OliyBill,
So Ford made the steering quadrant with cotter pins? I thought they all came with rivets. Was this a 26-7 only thing? I'm already doing as you say with my blast cabinet. That good advice. Keeping the media clean will give a better result.

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