MTFCA Forum

I have a death wobble in my 1922 that I am trying to fix. The only thing I see that has play is the steering bracket bushings. But, when I took things apart I found that the steering shaft has a lot of wear so that replacing the bushings alone is not going to fix it. In looking at the dealers, the only new steering shaft I see is a kit to convert the steering to the later 5 to 1 ratio. It’s a bit pricy, but good and safe steering (and no death wobble) is worth it. What I don’t know is if this is a straight forward conversion or if I will need to change the housing on the column to make it work. If anyone has done this conversion, please let me know how it worked for you and what I am up against.

Morgan,
The answer to any question you have can be found if you google search eg: Steering gear ratio mtfca, or muffler bracket mtfca, or axle repair mtfca. The encyclopedia and library will open to you, (along with a myriad of thoughts and opinions including mine) What you want to do involves several components, The upper gear, steering shaft, pinion gear and planetary gears, pitman arm, and drag link. They must be "tuned" as a set along with a correctly straightened axle, spindle bolts, tie rod bolts, and radius rod ball and socket. Then you should be good to go. Do your research and homework and you will be busy for a while.

Thanks I will take a look. I can’t imagine why I didn’t think to search for “muffler bracket” or “axle repair” to address this question(?).

My understanding is that the shaft comes as a kit that includes the upper gear, steering shaft, pinion gear, and planetary gears. My pitman arm is fine (tight, round ball etc.) and my drag link is good. I will read up on the “tuning” involved for this setup.

Hi Morgan,
Is the shaft worn at the frame bracket, and do the gears look good? The first time I did the lower bushings & got them from the local hardware store and they where very small when pressed in and had to be reamed to fit. Do you have or know someone with a lathe. you could maybe fix this without
a large cost if you are willing to try that method by installing new bushings and if too tight turn the shaft to fit. Cheap solution if it will work, if not start looking for a shaft. Some times Occam's razer works.
Craig.

Craig, that would work. I have been cleaning up the shaft and it appears that the variations in shaft diameter were at least partially due to a buildup of hard crusty grease. After soaking it in solvent and scraping off the buildup, it’s pretty good. Unfortunately, I managed to damage the lower bracket trying get the bushings out (another is on the way) so things are at a stand for a bit.

Ken's admonition was how to search for ANY SUBJECT in the Forum, and how to create the search term for any subject. He was not advising you to search for muffler brackets to solve your steering issue. It was good advice for anyone, as is the specific advice you are receiving on this specific subject from others.

I am not a big fan of the "upgrade" as it turns a "T" into an "A" as far as steering vagueness, and isn't always the easy straightforward fix some would have you believe. Sometimes it is, but often it is not, depending on the condition of your planetary gearcase.

Have you jacked up the front axel and checked the spindle bolts for looseness. That could be the cause of the death wobble.

Art Mirtes

You can find out pretty quick where the so called “ death wobble “ is if you do this.

Also you said as “far as you could see”.

Did you Jack up the front end completely off the floor to check what looseness or slight to “see” movement in the radius rod, steering gear underneath the car, spindle bolts and so on?

Place Jack stands under the frame and not the axle to check it.

Replacing the steering gear parts in the case or making it a 5x1 ratio wont cure it.

You can have a looseness or slight movement, slack in the gear case and not have death wobble.

90% of the so called wobble comes from looseness underneath the car and not on top. The bushings get worn and cause the slop and it doesn’t take much to translate it the wheels to have the wobble issues.

I have 3 T’s that don’t have tight steering gear cases and a little slack and they don’t wobble.

Rebuilding the front axle assemblies stopped the looseness and wobble in my cars.

Morgan : Converting your '22 from 4:1 to 5:1 may not eliminate your "death wobble" but it's a step in the right direction. I've converted every pre-'25 T I,ve had to 5:1 to get more control (less direct) steering. I currently have a very nice '14 roadster that had an original 14" steering wheel and the 4:1 gearing and have just finished the conversion and it makes the car much easier to control, especially at speeds above 40 MPH where the "go-cart" steering can put you in the ditch in a hurry. Adding a larger diameter steering wheel helps as well. That being said you will still have to address any wear issues with the pitman arm, drag link, steering arm bushings, king pin bushings and wheel bearings. You need to change the main shaft, the three small gears and the main drive gear but can still use your original gear box, lower steering support, your pitman arm and the drag link. If your existing steering box does not have the groove to limit the rotation, you will have to shorten the one extended pin that protudes into the bottom of the box.

I chased the death wobble in my car for two years before I realized what was wrong. In my case, one spring perch was twisted very slightly from perpendicular to the axle centerline. With fresh (tight) shackles and bushings all around, shackles on that perch would bind. My whole axle assembly would shift to the right from a bump because the other shackle was moving freely. Now that I have realigned my perches, the wobble is gone.

Changing the steering gear ratio from 4:1 to 5:1 will not cure the death wobble. The ratio is not the cause of the wobble. The wobble is caused by wear in other parts of the front axle. Fix all of the worn parts and it will cure the wobble. Changing the ratio will make steering easier. The gear housing on the column does not care which gears are in the housing, it will accept both ratios.

Jack Putnam, in Ohio wrote: ↑

Tue Aug 30, 2022 2:53 pm

Changing the steering gear ratio from 4:1 to 5:1 will not cure the death wobble. The ratio is not the cause of the wobble.

He knows that. It's just that the only new steering column shaft available, is a 5:1 ratio apparently. So, if he's to buy a new shaft, he's forced to also change the ratio.

Thanks for the input guys. I am aware of the issues that can cause a death wobble and I am clear that changing the ratio is a different issue. I have worn bushings in my steering bracket and am replacing them. Everything else does not have any play. If the new bushings fix the wobble great! If not, I will look at other things (alignment, etc or something I have missed). In any case, the bushings in the lower bracket needed to be replaced and it’s a cheap and easy job to do (unless you screw up the bracket like I did trying to get the bushings out).

When I started this post I thought that my shaft was too worn to get all the play out by installing new bushings. I have since found that the felt irregularities on the shaft were largely caused by built up hard grease. But for a bit there I thought I was going to need to replace my steering shaft and the only ones I see for sale are the 5-1 conversions. I was asking about doing this conversion. As it is, I am going to try to use what I have, but the different ratio sounds good for a driver.

I got the shaft out, inspected everything, and found that triple gears were really loose on the pins. When I took them off, I found that they had been badly bushed using what looks like copper pipe(!?). This is odd since they don’t normally have bushings. The bushings fell out in pieces when I took the gears off. The shaft is good, other than some bumps caused by dents that were keeping the bushings from sliding on. I filed those off and polished the shaft bearing surface on the lathe and it’s good to go. The cover is good and the hole is not oversized. I ordered new pins, and a 4-1 gear set which should be a big improvement over what I had. Nice to have a $60 fix to the problem.

Sounds like Morgan is on to the root cause of the sloppiness in his steering and on the way to solving this particular problem. As for the myriad of others throwing away steering shaft parts (in the past and into the future), scrapping out a worn 4:1 shaft is a choice and not a necessity, as they most certainly can be brought back to new condition

https://www.exline-inc.com/news/24/use- ... worn-parts

Personally, I would be very concerned with your steering system after finding the bushed gears. A big red flag would have me inspecting everything else mechanical in the car along with the steering itself. I can't imagine how only the three hardened gears could wear enough to need "home-made" bushings while the rest of the mechanism shows no wear. There is a difference between worn and worn out, and even though you're in Alaska, I'd still be looking for a decent used 5:1 gear set as all '25-'27 T's used this ratio and it sure gives a better road feel and more driver control over the old 4:1 setup.

Bruce Compton wrote: ↑

Wed Aug 31, 2022 2:55 pm

Personally, I would be very concerned with your steering system after finding the bushed gears. A big red flag would have me inspecting everything else mechanical in the car along with the steering itself. I can't imagine how only the three hardened gears could wear enough to need "home-made" bushings while the rest of the mechanism shows no wear. There is a difference between worn and worn out, and even though you're in Alaska, I'd still be looking for a decent used 5:1 gear set as all '25-'27 T's used this ratio and it sure gives a better road feel and more driver control over the old 4:1 setup.

Thats an amen.
I have seen worn gears, but usually a new set of pins(which are over-sized compared to original.) get the old gears back to usable, as the pins seem to wear the most.
Be lookin for a late steering column reasonable & switch out the guts if you feel a 5-1 ratio would be an advantage.
I am a fan of the "improved" T steering ratio.

He might want to check the orientation of the spring perches. I found it to be a problem on a car I bought years ago.

Switching to 5-1 is a goal, but, as some have noted T parts are thin on the ground in Alaska and if I can get things going with the less expensive fix, that’s great. I have a ton of T parts, including a full 1926 steering column down at my ranch in Nevada but that’s a long way from here.

I don’t know the full history of this car so I can’t speak to why it was done this way. All the bolts and cotter pins holding the steering on/together are brand new indicating that it was done not that long ago. The pins on the shaft show a couple of thousandths wear, nothing really bad. But, the hole in the triple gears are oversized. It looks like they drove some small copper pipe into the triple gears with a hammer to get a tighter fit (you can see smashed copper pipe in a couple of the gears in the picture as well as some greasy broken pieces of copper that came out when I took the gears apart) but gears were still oversized on the pins with the junky “bushings”. The gears also show a lot of wear on the teeth. Honestly, it looks like someone used the wrong gears. The case looks ok so I think the fix I have on tap should be fine for now. Using the new, slightly oversized pins will insure a tight fit to the shaft and proper clearance to the new triple gears.

The steering on this car has been heavy and a bit off since I got it. Replacing the gears and bracket bushings can’t help but improve things. I am going though the car carefully, finding and fixing issues. Over the winter, I will be rebuilding the wheels as some have a bit of wobble. I am not driving it until these issues are fixed.

sent PM

Dave

If you change over to 5-1 gears with new pins, gears and drive pinion…. please publish HOW you get all that back into the case and turning….I’ve been working on this project for 2 days now with no joy getting it all back in the gear case!!!

Rob

thus my warning, earlier that isn't always the easy or straightforward fix that some would have you believe...as you are now finding out

fordt wrote: ↑

Mon Sep 05, 2022 4:51 pm

If you change over to 5-1 gears with new pins, gears and drive pinion…. please publish HOW you get all that back into the case and turning….I’ve been working on this project for 2 days now with no joy getting it all back in the gear case!!!

You didnt mention the 5-1 steering shaft. ALL components must be changed. The main steering shaft 3 pin locations are different also.
Look @ the service manual warning.

I have done this conversion on a 14, 20 & 23. I use all the parts from a donor 26-7 column. With new pins. No issues.

I have not bought all the components new & therefore, cant speak to that personally.
I would not be suprised to find that the makers of these new parts "improved" things to the point they wont fit.
I believe the 3 pins are standard dowl pins, which are larger diameter than originally. This usually isnt a problem with used/worn gears.

Is the 5:1 conversion really that much of a change? I've never had an issue with overly quick steering on my 1924. And yes, I was pulling into the grass on purpose in this pic.

Hey Mark; I think that if your driving is mostly under say 35-40 MPH the 4:1 is (just) OK. I live in a flat area and used my cars to test rebuilt carbs so I'm often over 50 MPH and with the 4:1 ratio, it's more like aiming the car rather than steering it. Now add a small 14" steering wheel and the problem is magnified to the point that an inch or so of travel on the perimeter of the steering wheel at the wrong time and you're in the ditch. I've changed every pre-'25 T I've owned (maybe 8-9 cars) to 5:1 and will do it again if needed. It was the very first thing I did to my '14 Roadster this summer. The later ratio and bigger wheel really does give more control and a better road feel especially at higher speeds. It's an easy conversion, especially if you have a decent later column kicking around and I'm absolutely sure you would like it and never look back. Besides, only you would know as it's all hidden.

5:1 with a 17" wheel is still much quicker than any modern car.

Scott_Conger wrote: ↑

Mon Sep 05, 2022 5:02 pm

Rob

thus my warning, earlier that isn't always the easy or straightforward fix that some would have you believe...as you are now finding out

Ugh, this hobby is killing me….as is trying to save this rusty Frankencar!

CudaMan wrote: ↑

Mon Sep 05, 2022 7:34 pm

Is the 5:1 conversion really that much of a change? I've never had an issue with overly quick steering on my 1924. And yes, I was pulling into the grass on purpose in this pic.

Yes. At least on my 14 the change went from scary go cart steering to pleasantly controllable @ speeds over 40.
Changing the small original wheel helped a bunch also.

Well, Henry thought it was enough of a change that he did it on the “improved” 26-27 cars.

I was planning on just rebuilding the 4-1 steering, but a member offered me an unused 5-1 conversion kit at a decent price so I am going to give it a try. Things are all cleaned up and ready to go back together but I am waiting for the “new” parts. Since I have everything apart, I am also installing some Apco spring caps on the tie rod. Interested to see how things go when it’s back together.

It wasn't so much of an improvement as it was a mechanical necessity to wrestle against the balloon tires that came on the things

[/quote]

You didnt mention the 5-1 steering shaft. ALL components must be changed. The main steering shaft 3 pin locations are different also.
Look @ the service manual warning.


[/quote]

What would be the major difference in steering columns? I have 2 to experiment with along with 2 slotted gear cases. Is there a measurable component i.e. the top 3 pin mounting plate where components/dimensions that can be measured/verified? I didn’t see anywhere in the service manual that stated a new shaft was necessary….but I could have misinterpreted it…

fordt wrote: ↑

Tue Sep 06, 2022 2:23 pm

You didnt mention the 5-1 steering shaft. ALL components must be changed. The main steering shaft 3 pin locations are different also.
Look @ the service manual warning.


[/quote]

What would be the major difference in steering columns? I have 2 to experiment with along with 2 slotted gear cases. Is there a measurable component i.e. the top 3 pin mounting plate where components/dimensions that can be measured/verified?
[/quote]
Gear case teeth are the same. At some point there is a slot for 1 longer pin to ride in to prevent over steer. That change was 21? The matching 3 pin mounting plate is a critical component.
The pin circle dimensions are different between the 4 & 5-1 shafts. Note the gears are different diameters, so the pins they ride on are spaced differently. Again note the warning for mixing components in the service manual.
Dry fit all the parts outside the gear case & there will be an obvious correct or incorrect gear mesh.

Wait….the pins are where the pins are gonna be on the end of the steering shaft, they’re not spaced differently on the steering shafts? You just have to make sure you use the pins, gears and pinion that come as a set together….AND they’ll go/supposed to go in any slotted gear case with 36 teeth in the circumference as long as the pinion goes into the steering shaft…..

fordt wrote: ↑

Tue Sep 06, 2022 5:37 pm

Wait….the pins are where the pins are gonna be on the end of the steering shaft, they’re not spaced differently on the steering shafts? You just have to make sure you use the pins, gears and pinion that come as a set together….AND they’ll go/supposed to go in any slotted gear case with 36 teeth in the circumference as long as the pinion goes into the steering shaft…..

The 3 pins ARE spaced different between the 4-1 or the 5-1 gear shaft.
You cant successfully or safely mix any of the geared components.

https://mtfca.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?t=4747 by DanTreace » Wed Jun 26, 2019 1:58 pm explains all...

and here is the next problem you may run into (depending on the needs of your draglink/pitman arm)...http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/50 ... 1442860246 By Dan Treace, North FL on Monday, September 21, 2015 - 09:01 am: