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Installing metal panels best practices
Posted: Fri Feb 16, 2024 4:37 pm
by Tbird
I need some advice, pointers, and tips. I have all my metal panels for the next phase of the Delivery Car project and need some pointers when it comes to fastening them to the wood frame. The floors are ash 1" thick, the rest of the framing is Hard Maple and mostly 3/4" thick where it will be nailed.
The metal panels on the sides consist of an upper panel and a lower panel that will be butt jointed along the long horizontal frame. The lower panel will have a 90 degree flange along the bottom so it can be nailed from underneath. Both panels will be nailed top, bottom and sides only. The door skins are just nailed along the perimeter of the door frame.
Questions:
- When nailing the metal on, should I start in the middle at the top of the panel or bottom of panel?
-How many nails should be placed in the panel 1 every 3", 4", 5"? etc..
-Should I pre-drill the nail holes?
-What tips do you have or things that were helpful to you when nailing sheet metal?
-Nails:
I've been looking for some fasteners, I've looked at Restoration Hardware, and local hardware places. I've looked at screw nails, tacks, and ring shanked nails. The major issue is finding a short enough nail so it doesn't go all the way through the 3/4". I found some shoemaking nails that are 1/2" long with a 3/16" flat head. They are steel and ring shanked. Would these suffice?
Thanks for all your help
Re: Installing metal panels best practices
Posted: Fri Feb 16, 2024 5:38 pm
by Dan McEachern
Mike- you might call Karen B.- she will probably know what Bill used on his bodies and if not, Bill's son may well be able to help you.
Re: Installing metal panels best practices
Posted: Fri Feb 16, 2024 5:55 pm
by Pep C Strebeck
You might give these guys a look, maybe the trunk tacks would work;
https://dbgurney.com/
I have bought a bunch of stuff from them over the years, most recently tacks for the Runabouts interior.
Re: Installing metal panels best practices
Posted: Fri Feb 16, 2024 5:56 pm
by John kuehn
I learned a few things along the way as a maintenance mechanic when building sheet metal AC duct work and large exhaust fan housings.
When attaching metal panels to framework MAKE SURE THE FRAMEWORK OR SURFACE IS LEVEL. ESPECIALLY WHERE THEIR IS CONNECTING JOINTS.
FROM TOP TO BOTTOM AND SIDE TO SIDE.
If it’s not flat it will definitely show up when it’s painted. To me it’s sort of like a nice paint job. If the surface isn’t perfectly leveled out to begin with wait and see how it will show up when it’s painted.
I wasn’t a coach builder but the principle is the same.
Re: Installing metal panels best practices
Posted: Fri Feb 16, 2024 7:08 pm
by Allan
My chocolate van I panelled with aluminium sheets. Because the original van had C mouldings around the edges and at the joins in the panels, any fixings were hidden. I could use 3/4" nails with annular rings for the job. If you can find same in stainless steel, these will be less likely to bend when nailing and not corrode in place. It may be worthwhile experimenting with pre-drilling the holes.
I would recommend using an adhesive on the framework to bond the sheets to prevent rattles. The adhesive I used worked well for 20 years, but has let go in places now. Modern equivalents should be better. i clamped timber laths on the outside to load the panels in contact with the adhesive until it had cured. It was simply a matter of running the ends of the laths over a buzzer to machine a slight curve. When the ends of the laths were clamped, the centre put a little load on the panel to hold it to the framework.
Hope this helps.
Allan from down under.
Re: Installing metal panels best practices
Posted: Fri Feb 16, 2024 7:22 pm
by Jack Putnam, in Ohio
Some woods have better nail holding characteristics than others. Maple is not the best, especially hard maple. Nails will split the maple and it is very hard to nail without bending the nails. Pre drill it to prevent splitting. Screws will hold better than short nails
Re: Installing metal panels best practices
Posted: Sat Feb 17, 2024 12:28 am
by jiminbartow
Is there any way to use one piece of sheet metal per side instead of several smaller overlapping pieces? It seems like there will be less chance of buckling or warpage if only one piece is used to span the large gaps between the slats. When nailing thin sheet metal sheets, to ensure they are flat, first position your piece precisely, and clamp in place to the slats with clamps. Start nailing in the center and work your way outward until you get to the edge. I would position the nails every 3” to prevent waves from forming between the nails. Make sure when marking the nail lines, the lines are perfectly straight or centered in the exact center of the slats. Pre drill the nail holes so the nails won’t bend when going through the sheet steel. Don’t nail the nails so hard that they dimple the metal around the head of the nail. The nail should be seated just enough so that the area around the nail head is perfectly flat. Jim Patrick
PS. Was flexible plywood ever used to cover the sides of these delivery vans? Seems like wood would go on easier and flatter.
Re: Installing metal panels best practices
Posted: Sat Feb 17, 2024 1:23 am
by Craig Leach
Having worked with very large metal panels for a good amount of time. Heat is your best friend. If when the panel that is secured is warmer
than the frame or support it is installed on that when it cools it will be taunt & smooth. Oil canning is a issue that will take up tons of time to
correct. Just a observation I have found to help.
Craig.
Re: Installing metal panels best practices
Posted: Sat Feb 17, 2024 6:12 am
by Tbird
Dan McEachern wrote: ↑Fri Feb 16, 2024 5:38 pm
Mike- you might call Karen B.- she will probably know what Bill used on his bodies and if not, Bill's son may well be able to help you.
Good point Dan. I’ve spoken with Karen before but not her son. Karen was a little limited with the “how to” but provided some great pictures.
Re: Installing metal panels best practices
Posted: Sat Feb 17, 2024 6:13 am
by Tbird
Pep C Strebeck wrote: ↑Fri Feb 16, 2024 5:55 pm
You might give these guys a look, maybe the trunk tacks would work;
Thanks! I’ll check them out.
https://dbgurney.com/
I have bought a bunch of stuff from them over the years, most recently tacks for the Runabouts interior.
Re: Installing metal panels best practices
Posted: Sat Feb 17, 2024 6:19 am
by Tbird
Allan wrote: ↑Fri Feb 16, 2024 7:08 pm
My chocolate van I panelled with aluminium sheets. Because the original van had C mouldings around the edges and at the joins in the panels, any fixings were hidden. I could use 3/4" nails with annular rings for the job. If you can find same in stainless steel, these will be less likely to bend when nailing and not corrode in place. It may be worthwhile experimenting with pre-drilling the holes.
I would recommend using an adhesive on the framework to bond the sheets to prevent rattles. The adhesive I used worked well for 20 years, but has let go in places now. Modern equivalents should be better. i clamped timber laths on the outside to load the panels in contact with the adhesive until it had cured. It was simply a matter of running the ends of the laths over a buzzer to machine a slight curve. When the ends of the laths were clamped, the centre put a little load on the panel to hold it to the framework.
Hope this helps.
Allan from down under.
Allan, there are half oval moldings that will cover the nails in this one as well. Notes in the blueprints call out to nail felt on the frame work to keep it from rattling.
Re: Installing metal panels best practices
Posted: Sat Feb 17, 2024 6:21 am
by Tbird
Jack Putnam, in Ohio wrote: ↑Fri Feb 16, 2024 7:22 pm
Some woods have better nail holding characteristics than others. Maple is not the best, especially hard maple. Nails will split the maple and it is very hard to nail without bending the nails. Pre drill it to prevent splitting. Screws will hold better than short nails
Thanks Jack!
Re: Installing metal panels best practices
Posted: Sat Feb 17, 2024 6:37 am
by Tbird
jiminbartow wrote: ↑Sat Feb 17, 2024 12:28 am
Is there any way to use one piece of sheet metal per side instead of several smaller overlapping pieces? It seems like there will be less chance of buckling or warpage if only one piece is used to span the large gaps between the slats. When nailing thin sheet metal sheets, to ensure they are flat, first position your piece precisely, and clamp in place to the slats with clamps. Start in the center and work your way outward until you get to the edge. I would position the nails every 3” to prevent waves from forming between the nails. Make sure when marking the nail lines, the lines should be perfectly straight or centered in the exact center of the slats. Pre drill the nail holes so the nails won’t bend when going through the sheet steel. Don’t nail the nails so hard that they dimple the metal around the head of the nail. The nail should be seated just enough so that the area around the nail head is perfectly flat. Jim Patrick
PS. Was flexible plywood ever used to cover the sides of these delivery vans? Seems like wood would go on easier and flatter.
Jim,
The sides use only use two pieces. A lower section that’s about 21” wide and 66” long . The upper section is about 37” wide and 81” long. The two pieces are butt jointed on the long horizontal piece. A piece of moulding covers the seam. The metal is 22 gauge steel. 3” sounds like a good idea. As to your question regarding using plywood for the sides. I can’t speak of other delivery (non Ford) bodies how they were constructed, but the Ford delivery cars consisted of a wood frame skinned in metal. Ply wood was never used originally.
Re: Installing metal panels best practices
Posted: Sat Feb 17, 2024 6:41 am
by Tbird
Craig Leach wrote: ↑Sat Feb 17, 2024 1:23 am
Having worked with very large metal panels for a good amount of time. Heat is your best friend. If when the panel that is secured is warmer
than the frame or support it is installed on that when it cools it will be taunt & smooth. Oil canning is a issue that will take up tons of time to
correct. Just a observation I have found to help.
Craig.
Good point Craig!
I’ll keep that in mind. Thanks!
Re: Installing metal panels best practices
Posted: Sat Feb 17, 2024 6:42 am
by Tbird
John kuehn wrote: ↑Fri Feb 16, 2024 5:56 pm
I learned a few things along the way as a maintenance mechanic when building sheet metal AC duct work and large exhaust fan housings.
When attaching metal panels to framework MAKE SURE THE FRAMEWORK OR SURFACE IS LEVEL. ESPECIALLY WHERE THEIR IS CONNECTING JOINTS.
FROM TOP TO BOTTOM AND SIDE TO SIDE.
If it’s not flat it will definitely show up when it’s painted. To me it’s sort of like a nice paint job. If the surface isn’t perfectly leveled out to begin with wait and see how it will show up when it’s painted.
I wasn’t a coach builder but the principle is the same.
Thanks John! Good reminders.
Re: Installing metal panels best practices
Posted: Sat Feb 17, 2024 9:32 am
by jiminbartow
Re: Installing metal panels best practices
Posted: Sat Feb 17, 2024 7:02 pm
by Allan
Mike, if you have C mouldings to cover the joints and the edges of the panel, that will make the job that much easier. My mouldings were aluminium, with a slight concave underneath. You need to space your line of nails in from the edge so the concavity is over the nail heads. My mouldings were screwed on, at 3" intervals, and the countersunk heads filled over before painting.
Felt will allow moisture to get behind the panels, and it will hold that moisture for a while. I would not like that to happen with steel panels.
I had a very tight 10"curve to make in the side mouldings around the window tops on my van. I made a former in which to bend them by cutting a hardwood plank the diameter of the bend. This was then run over a table saw for the depth of the moulding width so I had a channel in which to bend the moulding. I used the same technique when making some new side mouldings on my wide body roadster. That way there was no chance of the bend assuming a third dimension. Your curves are much gentler, so hand bending the mouldings would be easier. However, a similar former would make the job that much easier and more consistent.
Keep up the great work.
Allan from down under.
Re: Installing metal panels best practices
Posted: Sat Feb 17, 2024 9:13 pm
by John kuehn
Another idea if you use mouldings to cover areas where the sheet metal pieces meet you might do it the way Ford did it on the closed cars in the mid 20’s.
When I was restoring my Grandfathers 24 Coupe some of the moulding around the cab and sides of the body was loose and raising up. I found that the moulding pieces were nailed in to the body wood and the nails looked like finishing nails. The were countersunk less than an 1/8” and the hole was covered over with some sort of putty. That gave a nice smooth moulding appearance after light sanding. The 25 Fordor I use to own was done the same way. Maybe this will help in determining how to do any type of moulding work.
Re: Installing metal panels best practices
Posted: Sun Feb 18, 2024 12:09 am
by jiminbartow
Here is another very useful tool you might want to consider. I have one of these and it is very useful for holding small, short nails and starting the nail straight while protecting the fingers. Jim Patrick.
Re: Installing metal panels best practices
Posted: Sun Feb 18, 2024 12:58 pm
by Les Schubert
Jim where can I buy that nail holder pliers?
Looks like something I need
Re: Installing metal panels best practices
Posted: Sun Feb 18, 2024 1:04 pm
by speedytinc
Les Schubert wrote: ↑Sun Feb 18, 2024 12:58 pm
Jim where can I buy that nail holder pliers?
Looks like something I need
Nail holding pliers - TBAY $8 & up
Re: Installing metal panels best practices
Posted: Sun Feb 18, 2024 11:36 pm
by jiminbartow
Les. Try
www.temu.com. That is the name that came up with the image. $8.48. Amazon also has them under nail holder. If you want to find more, go online and search nail holder. They are very handy. Jim Patrick
Re: Installing metal panels best practices
Posted: Mon Feb 19, 2024 4:29 pm
by Les Schubert
Found them on Amazon. Should have them by Wednesday
Re: Installing metal panels best practices
Posted: Mon Feb 19, 2024 7:35 pm
by jiminbartow
You’ll love ‘em.
Re: Installing metal panels best practices
Posted: Thu Feb 22, 2024 11:51 am
by Tbird
Very good thoughts here guys. Very helpful. I especially like the nail holding pliers. I ordered a set should be here tomorrow. I also decided to use a #16 gauge brad nail with a head. Unfortunately I can’t find them any shorter than 3/4” so I’m going to be modifying a lot of them to be about 5/8”
I can find #18 gauge ones shorter but the head is way to small.
Re: Installing metal panels best practices
Posted: Tue Mar 11, 2025 11:28 pm
by Philip Lawrence
Mike, Lang's has body panel nails. They have worked great for me. Check out their catalog or give them a call. Good luck on your project. It's coming along nicely!
Re: Installing metal panels best practices
Posted: Wed Mar 12, 2025 5:16 am
by Allan
Mike, the panel nails are just part of the "hold" on the panels. When I built my chocolate van, the panels were cut to fit and then glued to the frame, both around the edges and on the intermediate body timbers, being held in place with clamped-on timber laths. Today I would use Sikaflex auto body adhesive rather than the construction adhesive that has let go after 30 years.
The nails then become insurance to make sure the panel stays in place. With panels in place, it is easier to mark out the nail lines to make sure they will be covered by the concave under the C moulding. My nails also had the annular rings. Fewer precisely aimed blows with a well weighted hammer is better than multiple multiple blows with a lighter hammer. I did pre-drill the panels, and if a nail was in a difficult position, I used a punch so the blow was on that rather than the nail.
I screwed the mouldings on using slot head countersunk stainless steel screws at 3" intervals. These to add to the fixing insurance. They were countersunk below the surface of the moulding and then hidden with body filler before painting. After 30 years some cracking has occurred on a few of the screws, but that is expected. On my 1917 shooting brake I used the same screw technique to finish the edges of the canvas top where they fold over the side timber. These are left with no filler.
Just what worked for me. Allan from down under.
Re: Installing metal panels best practices
Posted: Wed Mar 12, 2025 2:42 pm
by TRDxB2
From Craig Beek's photo library of his Pie Wagon
Painted inside before nailed on