MTFCA Forum

Scott Rosenthal

Some great reading here Gentlemen....many thanks again for these excellent posts. Got to wonder whether there was a practical need that drove the wider southern track, or whether this evolved as a matter of purely preference? By the turn of the 20th century, hundreds of wagon, buggy and carriage bui...

Scott Rosenthal

Hello Steven:
If you are a brass T enthusiast, you're in for one heck of a show. This is one of the most elaborate private collections I have seen.
Regards,
Scott

Scott Rosenthal

Hello George:
Looks like the fenders on the 1915 example shown offer little splash protection. Do you figure this may be a standard body sitting on a Wide Track chassis?
Regards,
Scott

Scott Rosenthal

Wow, excellent feedback Gentlemen...thank you. Clear this feature was an industry standard. A long time T member tells me that the 1909 Ford Wide Track was initially produced with unique wider bodies, with special front fenders, but where aprons and running boards and rear fenders were standard size...

Scott Rosenthal

Ford built significant quantities of the Dixie Wide Track Model T's, in various modified chassis and body forms, such that there remain a healthy number of them today. No where have I seen sales figures that speak to these sales volumes, and what cost and lead time terms may been in place to purchas...

Scott Rosenthal

side lamp brackets cast barss finished 8-21-2020.jpg [attachment=1]side lamp brackets cast barss finished 8-21-2020.jpg] Hello Mike: These were created in cartridge brass. The surface needs to be ground to #2000 grit finish prior to either nickel plate for steel, or polished solid brass. Note also ...

Scott Rosenthal

Hello Mike: All repros of these that I have seen are cast in bronze, not cartridge brass. They will grind down and polish out ok, but under the best of circumstances, they have an orange hue instead of yellow. They can be brass plated, but that will cost you approx. additional 200.00. Steel original...

Scott Rosenthal

Hello Mark: As noted, torch heating the bracket is a solution that I have used. Ice down the shaft and heat the bracket for maximum effect, then drive the shaft out with the pitman arm initially in place to protect the threads. Good news is that the shaft diameter that was protected by the bronze bu...

Scott Rosenthal

I met Charlie on my first trip to Chicasha. His posts were always helpful and entertaining...he will be missed here.
Regards,
Scott

Scott Rosenthal

Please feel free to post the amount that I offered you, so that unknowing others here do not likewise offend you.
Scott Rosenthal

Scott Rosenthal

The white tires are display pieces only. You will not prevent them from browning, and all will check if you drive them. A shame that technology has not overcome these constants, but nobody here who has used them will dispute these realities. I use them for early cars because they look distressed as ...

Scott Rosenthal

Hello Mike:
Do you have original early water inlet and outlet castings as per those shown in Gail Rodda's 1909 photo book? Inlet casting has flanges surrounding mounting bosses. Also curious whether the 1911 clamshell was sold?
Many Thanks,
Scott

Scott Rosenthal

Thanks Mario. If you happened to be in Richmond Indiana, stop by the MTFCA Museum and see it along with the Town Car exhibit that the good folks there put together.
Regards,
Scott

Scott Rosenthal

Hello Rich:
Could be 11 or 12 Ford...my guess is 1912. Can't see a bump in the running board apron, but doesn't mean it's not there. If its a 12, the driver compartment threshold is wider to accommodate mounting of the dummy panel.
Regards,
Scott

Scott Rosenthal

Many thanks to Freighter Jim and Director Josh Conrad at the Early Ford V8 Museum in Auburn. We much enjoyed a comprehensive walk-thru of this very rare piece and its various phases of restoration. I'm told the car is now expected to remain at the V8 Ford Museum for at least the next few months. Lot...

Scott Rosenthal

Hello Ray:
Check out Bob Bergstadt's (Bob's Auto Parts Loves Park Ill.) repro brass wheel and spider. One that I bought is a quality repro at a good price, where only I know it is not an original.
Regards,
Scott

Scott Rosenthal

Hello Darrin: Someone else here recently asked about the Brown #19 repros that Wayne Erickson of Gilbert Metal Products is making. Wayne's #19's are spot-on reproductions where original dies are used to build the signature smoke bonnets. A number of restored originals display his repro doors, door j...

Scott Rosenthal

Let me get this straight...replace a single component part that works fine, with a forty one piece component. Does this not literally translate to a 40X potential for failure? Sounds like a Rube Goldberg gag.
Regards,
Scott

Scott Rosenthal

Hello Joe: I looked into the cost and feasibility of gold plate and learned that gold plate assumes similar surface preparation requirements as brass, where the net cost is higher as per gold's cost, but where gold plate has it's own set of longevity issues. A misnomer is the gold plate will not tar...

Scott Rosenthal

Just got these hand brake and motor crank parts back from AW Custom Plating in Eastpointe Mi. The brass clarity and finish quality is excellent. These parts had been ruined by a previous vendor to the point where another shop would not touch them. Many thanks to Steve at AW, who described what he ne...

Scott Rosenthal

Hello Mark: Good point...Apologies, I did not lay out my entire rebuild process here, but interior coating of the housing center sections is part and parcel to this. The parts were rushed together to get the car on the road, especially the qualification of this rear end. I use a standard gas tank se...

Scott Rosenthal

Thanks Allan, Bill and Mark: I'm sure mine is not a new dilemma, and I suspect the inclusion of a gasket here may not be a solution for multiple reasons. Of most concern is the constant flex issue, where I expect any movement at this center area would likely be aggravated by a pliable gasket. I also...

Scott Rosenthal

Disclaimer: I'm not for one minute naïve to assume I can fully stop rear end leaks with a pressed steel clamshell rear end. That said, I put this rear end together with only Permatex Black silicone (no clamshell gasket), and must say it does a reasonably good job...every 2 weeks or so, I get a very ...

Scott Rosenthal

Hello Larry and Keith: Much appreciate this detailed response. I can make these parts but was hoping there was someone out there already building them. Seems these would be multi-model year items that could sell reasonably well for the vendors. I made my pan screws from an original, however these sh...

Scott Rosenthal

Many thanks for these excellent photos Keith. Notice how my clips do not fully wrap around the tube. Perhaps they did at one time, and someone has altered them? Are the 4 pan/tube cottered mounting screws longer to accommodate the clips, or are all identical. I have 10 of these special screws. Are y...

Scott Rosenthal

gas tube mtg clip 6-19-2020.jpg Curious whether the tube mounting clips shown here are OEM parts. This carbide gas supply line is believed to have been removed from a 1910 chassis, where the compression tee is certainly not an original part, and where this assembly was fastened to the bottom of the...

Scott Rosenthal

Hello Darrin: I run an original 5 ball Kingston that behaves similar as you describe on start-up. Because I have no choke, I have arrived at the following starting protocol... -Flip fuel on (I have a secondary valve shutoff at carburetor) -open fuel mixture knob an additional 1/4 turn -set both colu...

Scott Rosenthal

Curious whether folks out there with a 09/10 early timer have sampled brush rotor technology? Does not look like a complicated retrofit, and the performance theory sounds plausible. I have heard and read plenty of negatives related to these early timers, so am curious what fix options may have produ...

Scott Rosenthal

Very little related to this 1913 dash drawing is accurate for 1909. Most notable discrepancies are the steering hole location, steering mounting holes, and body to frame brackets.
Regards,
Scott

Scott Rosenthal

Check straps installed. Many thanks to Russ Furstnow who made these straps up as specials. Perhaps a petty detail...both original and repro footman loops have counter drilled mounting holes, suggesting possible flat head or check strap closed 5-8-2020.jpg oval screws for mounting, however I used the...

Scott Rosenthal

Hello Jem and Ian:
Love to see more photos of this fabulous car.
Regards,
Scott

Scott Rosenthal

Hello Darin: Some have proposed that Ford may have introduced the Black and Brass standards as early as mid 1912. I do not at all doubt this having seen seeming original Brown #100 and #105 oil lamps that have remnants of what appears to be early black finish, where in some cases, these entire lamps...

Scott Rosenthal

door panel with pocket.jpg Many thanks for these recommendations and these photos. Shown is the upholstery arrangement that I have (many thanks to Elizabeth Estep and her shop). Original footman loop was located mid way down the top portion of the panel, directly on top of the gimp trim. An added n...

Scott Rosenthal

Many thanks Collin....will check into this.
Regards,
Scott

Scott Rosenthal

Hello Jem: Thanks large for these excellent photos...great looking original car. I will check with Russ Furstnow to see if this style of strap is one of his leather products. Mine has a similar door panel with the footman loop. Separately, I recall you were rebuilding your no-rivet rear end, and I h...

Scott Rosenthal

My 1909 Touring doors have footman loops that were part of the original check strap assemblies. The hinge posts were re-wooded by others, and do not have evidence showing how the check straps were fastened at these posts. Researching these, I find examples where some straps are secured with cup wash...

Scott Rosenthal

Much like robe rails, prestolite tanks, and treaded tires, Ford dealerships of 1913 were happy to load up new owners with as many accessories and services as they could sell. I think it probable that pin stripes were one such service. Would be curious whether Ford provided dealerships with service b...

Scott Rosenthal

Hello Darin: Just to build on Scott's comment about poor repro fan performance. To evaluate this flow, simply open the palm of your hand facing the fan, next to the water inlet, while the engine is idling. If you do not feel an aggressive current, then increase air flow by bending the blades, mainta...

Scott Rosenthal

Hello Bob: Could be that your straps are early parts, but not Ford 1912 Torpedo parts. Steel strap length can be inexpensively increased or decreased as needed by simple cutting, welding, and finishing. If at some date in the future, you determine the alteration needs to be reversed....same process....

Scott Rosenthal

Hello Mike
Yes.... .06" flat rubber or thicker (old inner tube or rubber roofing) or composite sheet (standard gasket stock).

Regards,
Scott

Scott Rosenthal

classtique top rear 3-30-2020.jpg classtique top front.jpg Free Standing Deluxe top for 1909..flawless research and upholstery example by Elizabeth Estep @ Classtique. This upholstery was fabricated and assembled approximately 90% at Elizabeth's shop in Minnesota, then shipped to Cincinnati, where ...

Scott Rosenthal

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bnlCCugAC3Y Here's my simple solution to a similar mis-alignment. This can be done with the axle still in the car (water and a fire extinguisher always at the ready). Not seeing any problem with your radius rods at the torque-tube, other than previously noted lock was...

Scott Rosenthal

1909 blocks that do not have casting dates, but have an approximately 3/4" tall numeral cast in the middle of the right side. There have been random discussions about this feature, where I am not aware of conclusive information that determined what this number represents. A member here recently post...

Scott Rosenthal

The OLD MOTOR article that these photos stem from talks about the unique quick release filling funnel mounted on the cowl and the incredible 190" wheelbase. Also talks about how this Thomas defeated a number of US entry qualification candidates, to have become one of five US entries that were initia...

Scott Rosenthal

That you can faintly see the radiator numeral "8", suggests this may be this same car.
SR

Scott Rosenthal

Hello Rob:
This is a 1905 Vanderbilt Cup entry by Thomas.
Regards
Scott

Scott Rosenthal

No response to PM? Is this the same fan offer in another classified ad?
Regards,
Scott

Scott Rosenthal

I'll take fan no. 1 Tony.
will send PM.
Regards,
Scott

Scott Rosenthal

Very nice upholstery. Is this some of Ernie Romero's work?
Regards,
Scott

Scott Rosenthal

Hello Shane:
Not to get the cart before the horse....curious what the "radiator to motor" hose configuration will look like?
Regards,
Scott

Scott Rosenthal

Congratulations Jerry and Kim...many thanks for your many T Museum efforts.
Regards,
Scott

Scott Rosenthal

Apologies Michael....not trying to steal this discussion, only hoping this may open up the possibility of more options for your search.
Regards,
Scott

Scott Rosenthal

Was Corcoran not also a 1912 generator supplier? Some late 12's today have a Black steel tank.....not sure how one would verify originality of this, but commonly accepted is that Black and Brass lamps were supplied for late model year examples. Also curious about the quantity of mounting holes, and ...

Scott Rosenthal

Hello Alex: I've not seen verifiable data that either supports or refutes Bruce's assumption about this lamp. Certain is that Castle Lamp became a product line of the newly formed Atwood Castle Co in 1908 (I have a set of Castle oil lamps where the side lamps say Made in Elmira, but the where the ta...

Scott Rosenthal

Hello Jim:
Yours are the same Castle lamps seen on page 53 of Bruce's Black Book, incorrectly described there as Atwood Castle lamps, and described as 1909 issue. Never seen or heard of a #204 Atwood Castle lamp, so if someone has one or a credible photo, please post it.
Regards,
Scott

Scott Rosenthal

Hello Keith: Curious how the boot bottom panel is secured where this meets the rear panel of the body. What keeps this panel from sagging at its center? Also curious how the top panel straps fasten under the seat cushion? Are these straps sewn to the top panel and then clipped to a footman loop or o...

Scott Rosenthal

town car at 1908 ny auto expo 1-15-2020.jpg Three tier E&J side lamps appear in numerous early T photos of new cars like this one. Two tier E&J's are also seen in early photos that appear to show new T automobiles. As far as I have been able to research, surviving documentation does not support tha...

Scott Rosenthal

Hello Collin: May I ask whether this is to be a serviceable carbide system when complete? If so, you may recall previous posts that discussed the reliability of brass tubing, where this material is fracture prone. A practical solution for carbide and fuel brass line replacement is the Copper Nickel ...

Scott Rosenthal

As discussed, A/C produced dozens of versions of this 120 series lamp. Examples I have show there are at least (3) distinctly different chimney configurations, all using this 120 platform. If assuming a nickel plating option was offered, the number of these variations could climb exponentially. The ...

Scott Rosenthal

Or like this 120A. this one has slight stress cracking....a little TLC and will be good as new.
Regards,
Scott

Scott Rosenthal

It is identical to my A/C 120 except for: -Nickel finish -Red lens is flat instead of opal face -Font fitter has concentric relief at the bottom -Chimney cap has been squashed, otherwise identical to my brass 120 Red lens does not strike me as original as per other A/C 120, 120A. or 120X examples, a...

Scott Rosenthal

castle lamp co. 204 ane 120A 1-18-2020.jpg Tail lamp shown here is Castle Lamp Co. #120A Made in Amesbury Mass. Doesn't say this was made by Atwood Castle Lamp Co, but it unquestionably was. Strange that the Castle plant address on this lamp is not Elmira? I would love to see the chimney cap on the...

Scott Rosenthal

At least 6 features: 1) Chimney cap is stamped underlined #104 2) Chimney tier has 6 1/4" holes thru the underside 3) Red Jewel is opal, not faceted 4) Housing base is cut for 2 lug font, not 3 lug 5) Font has larger gauge 2 lug mounting not 3 lug 6) Taller Font has 3/8 tall collar that overlaps hou...

Scott Rosenthal

Funny you should say that Charlie. If this photo was oriented properly, the front left lamp is a 104, and the other 5 are 104A's
Regards,
Scott

Scott Rosenthal

Hi Charley:
You have 104 or 104A lamps, or YES? For any unfamiliar, unlike the 120A's 104's and 104A's are distinctly different from each other. I'm led to believe it is the 104 that was used on the 1909 Model T, however am not aware of how this is known to be certain?

Regards,
Scott

Scott Rosenthal

atwood castle bruchure 1909 1-17-2020.docx This brochure from Atwood Castle dated 1909 announces F.E. Castle joining this company. Another trade publication says Atwood Castle was incorporated late in 1908 as the result of the merger of the Atwood and Castle lamp companies. Get's a little confusing...

Scott Rosenthal

Sorry....had to dig to find this. 1908 NY Auto Expo I believe. Bonus photo since it's a 2 lever.
Regards,
Scott

Scott Rosenthal

Great photo Herb....have not seen this one before. Curious whether this is an 09 or 10? Early photos show this body with furnished both standard Touring style handles, and also Bale handles. Could have been dictated by the body supplier I guess....anyone have data on this?
Regards,
Scott

Scott Rosenthal

Hello Joe: Many thanks, but I believe I have arrived at the happy place. The axles are new, and they are the ones that are 1/16" over-length. At the time when I bought them, I was led to understand they were the best of the repos available, where I knew these parts had this specific potential, so it...

Scott Rosenthal

Hello Alex: Curious what version of the Atwood Castle 120 you have. If not already aware, there are literally dozens of versions of this lamp, which were sold as not only Atwood Castle, but at a minimum also Castle Lamp Co. and Dietz Lamp Co.. These lamps all display the same basic construction with...

Scott Rosenthal

Hello Mario: I recommend you create an elevation view layout of this, to keep on top of the dimensions of the parts you are using. When I researched this top for a 12 I did a couple of years ago, I found that all sockets and all bows, are not created equal. These length and radius variations were la...

Scott Rosenthal

brake drum gap ls 1-14-2020.jpg After research and much consideration, I elected to build spacers between my hub and drums. The desired aesthetic result has been achieved as shown. When I got the wheels off, I noticed a fresh cut had been taken on my hub-to-drum surfaces, which certainly accounted ...

Scott Rosenthal

Hello Mario: Note RV's comment about the wedge that is required for #4 bow. I'm not sure whether this is a strictly aesthetic adder, or whether this is intended to reinforce this bow. Seems logical this end bow will see more stress and therefore tendency to sag if this supplemented support wood is n...

Scott Rosenthal

#904 rear end 1-5-2020.jpg Much like my example, this early 09 rear end has similar random drum gap showing on both sides. This known car has the original style straight axles, where adjusting the gaps would be similarly complicated. I have to question whether these gaps would have been more proble...

Scott Rosenthal

Charley: Right hand or left hand needed? If you spin a new lower Tier top, should be easy. I spoke to a noted brass restorer (RB) who estimated 3-4K to restore one of these perfectly. Not sure what your client has in mind, but assume this cost has not likely changed in the last 2 years. What does a ...

Scott Rosenthal

Keith notes how parts of original upholstery were pieced together by suppliers back in the day. That's the way my cushions are made...if you look close, you see dye lot and grain variations, that nobody would notice unless you went looking for them. I had abundant scraps and thought to give this a t...

Scott Rosenthal

Wish I could help out Charley. I have a pile of 104A's but all have boogered up large chimney tier. Got chimney caps, 3 lug fonts, burners, glass, reflectors, if you need any of that A/C stuff. How about a 204 tail lamp?
Regards,
Scott

Scott Rosenthal

attachment] seat front 12 touring 1-1-2020.jpg Hello Michael: These show my home done 12 Touring upholstery job. These cushions were made using cut off scraps from this and another car project. The diamonds were individually sewn together, then padded to suit. This cushion frame is one of Snyders re...

Scott Rosenthal

Hello Michael: Sounds like you have been down this road before, so pardon if comments here are info already assumed. Seat backs for the 1911 Touring models will vary depending on who produced the body. Front and back seat backs and cushions will be unique dimensionally, where the rear is not only wi...

Scott Rosenthal

Charley:
Either one of the tail lamps shown in second photo have a usable door on it?
Regards Scott

Scott Rosenthal

1909 Castle #204 side lamps 12-30-2019.jpg These are Castle #204 side lamps as were furnished to Ford for 1909. Trying to locate the #204 tail lamp to accompany with this set. Chimney tops say The Castle Lamp Co. Elmira NY, although The Castle Lamp Co. and the Atwood Mfg. Co. were corporately combi...

Scott Rosenthal

Hello Michael: Got a good friend who just received one of ML's Jno Brown tanks back in July I believe. Super nice piece....an absolutely credible repo. I'm sure there are originals out there in good condition, but I suspect many if not most may be early hobby repos. I have a late 1950's T parts cata...

Scott Rosenthal

Hello Art: I replaced these channels on my brass Rand windshield, and will say the process is not complex, but not done well without some practice. Use your old channel and practice first. Channel sticks are costly....I got the best price from Speedway, who sell it by the foot. Bend areas are anneal...

Scott Rosenthal

Hello Michael:
Perhaps others have already mentioned Mike Leibsak as a repro source for this brass generator?
Regards,
Scott

Scott Rosenthal

axle variation.jpg A member here was kind enough to send this shot of axle length variations that are consistent with .16 overage that I'm seeing. Also notice the 3rd shaft down has the cotter hole aligned with the keyseat. If not mistaken, this Ford machine drawing shows this hole perpendicular to...

Scott Rosenthal

brake drum gap.jpg This shows the .16" gap. No it's not horrible, but no need to have these calipers showing if this can be addressed. When shot in Brewster Green and pinstriped this would not be as conspicuous. However, got a ton of time in this rear end, and will have much more with the finishing...

Scott Rosenthal

Hello Dan: Yes, this has been a head scratcher for me for a while. Options with solid potential are: a) new wider drum trimmed to fit b) splice current drums to wider then machine to desired width c) remachine taper to scoot drum inboard d) Build doughnut spacers between hub and drum a) through c) s...

Scott Rosenthal

Many thanks Les et all...the options list grows. I thought of having wider drums made, where I would make these let say .38" wider so that anyone with the same condition would turn to whatever width specs needed. When I mentioned this problem months ago, multiple folks contacted me to say they had s...

Scott Rosenthal

Hello Les: Say more about altering the gear side of the shaft. If the shaft gear is backed away from the c-rings (lets assume 5/32" (.16) for this example) now the c-ring thickness either needs to increase by 5/32", or some other spacer is required to occupy the now increased groove width. Hello And...

Scott Rosenthal

Not enough gap you're going to throw a cat through it, but I know I can make this a better looking job. I'm taking this rear end back apart for finishing, so it is coming back apart regardless. Hank's recommendation came to mind, but then there also needs to be a spacer made to fill the widened C-ri...

Scott Rosenthal

Apologies....type O....gap is .16"

Scott Rosenthal

Merry Christmas John. This could be the case...or maybe related to some housing tolerance...not seeing any particular root cause, but have heard the same issue from others. I'm also told some early originals display this. At any rate, I'm noodling what a practical invisible fix might be, for those w...

Scott Rosenthal

I have an axle that extends .016" outward of ideal position. Gap between the shafts inside this differential is perfect....just enough gap for the ear disc. This leaves an exposed gap between the brake drum and the backing plate. Has someone here shortened a repro axle shaft by turning back the tape...

Scott Rosenthal

tail lamp 204.docx: (95.14 KiB) Downloaded 84 times

Scott Rosenthal

Better Photo thanks to Dan. Looks just like #204 side lamp, but has red lens panel instead of one of the clear square glasses.
Regards,
Scott

Scott Rosenthal

Thanks TBird....I sent Email....will see if a response happens.
Regards,
Scott

Scott Rosenthal

Scott Rosenthal

: castle tsil lamp 12-7-2019.jpg (14.37 KiB) Viewed 1373 times

Best photo I have.
Regards,
Scott

Scott Rosenthal

WTB - Castle brass #204 Tail Lamp or related #204 parts. Scott Rosenthal (513)378-4235

Scott Rosenthal

A little history of this car. This reproduction Town Car was commissioned to be built by Henry Austin Clark, The builder is Leonard Davis, who was know as a premier early body maker and early restoration specialist. When the HAC Museum closed, the car was auctioned to Dick Williams of the Mennen Per...

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