MTFCA Forum

Scott Rosenthal

Hello Alex: I've not seen verifiable data that either supports or refutes Bruce's assumption about this lamp. Certain is that Castle Lamp became a product line of the newly formed Atwood Castle Co in 1908 (I have a set of Castle oil lamps where the side lamps say Made in Elmira, but the where the ta...

Scott Rosenthal

Hello Jim:
Yours are the same Castle lamps seen on page 53 of Bruce's Black Book, incorrectly described there as Atwood Castle lamps, and described as 1909 issue. Never seen or heard of a #204 Atwood Castle lamp, so if someone has one or a credible photo, please post it.
Regards,
Scott

Scott Rosenthal

Hello Keith: Curious how the boot bottom panel is secured where this meets the rear panel of the body. What keeps this panel from sagging at its center? Also curious how the top panel straps fasten under the seat cushion? Are these straps sewn to the top panel and then clipped to a footman loop or o...

Scott Rosenthal

town car at 1908 ny auto expo 1-15-2020.jpg Three tier E&J side lamps appear in numerous early T photos of new cars like this one. Two tier E&J's are also seen in early photos that appear to show new T automobiles. As far as I have been able to research, surviving documentation does not support tha...

Scott Rosenthal

Hello Collin: May I ask whether this is to be a serviceable carbide system when complete? If so, you may recall previous posts that discussed the reliability of brass tubing, where this material is fracture prone. A practical solution for carbide and fuel brass line replacement is the Copper Nickel ...

Scott Rosenthal

As discussed, A/C produced dozens of versions of this 120 series lamp. Examples I have show there are at least (3) distinctly different chimney configurations, all using this 120 platform. If assuming a nickel plating option was offered, the number of these variations could climb exponentially. The ...

Scott Rosenthal

Or like this 120A. this one has slight stress cracking....a little TLC and will be good as new.
Regards,
Scott

Scott Rosenthal

It is identical to my A/C 120 except for: -Nickel finish -Red lens is flat instead of opal face -Font fitter has concentric relief at the bottom -Chimney cap has been squashed, otherwise identical to my brass 120 Red lens does not strike me as original as per other A/C 120, 120A. or 120X examples, a...

Scott Rosenthal

castle lamp co. 204 ane 120A 1-18-2020.jpg Tail lamp shown here is Castle Lamp Co. #120A Made in Amesbury Mass. Doesn't say this was made by Atwood Castle Lamp Co, but it unquestionably was. Strange that the Castle plant address on this lamp is not Elmira? I would love to see the chimney cap on the...

Scott Rosenthal

At least 6 features: 1) Chimney cap is stamped underlined #104 2) Chimney tier has 6 1/4" holes thru the underside 3) Red Jewel is opal, not faceted 4) Housing base is cut for 2 lug font, not 3 lug 5) Font has larger gauge 2 lug mounting not 3 lug 6) Taller Font has 3/8 tall collar that overlaps hou...

Scott Rosenthal

Funny you should say that Charlie. If this photo was oriented properly, the front left lamp is a 104, and the other 5 are 104A's
Regards,
Scott

Scott Rosenthal

Hi Charley:
You have 104 or 104A lamps, or YES? For any unfamiliar, unlike the 120A's 104's and 104A's are distinctly different from each other. I'm led to believe it is the 104 that was used on the 1909 Model T, however am not aware of how this is known to be certain?

Regards,
Scott

Scott Rosenthal

atwood castle bruchure 1909 1-17-2020.docx This brochure from Atwood Castle dated 1909 announces F.E. Castle joining this company. Another trade publication says Atwood Castle was incorporated late in 1908 as the result of the merger of the Atwood and Castle lamp companies. Get's a little confusing...

Scott Rosenthal

Sorry....had to dig to find this. 1908 NY Auto Expo I believe. Bonus photo since it's a 2 lever.
Regards,
Scott

Scott Rosenthal

Great photo Herb....have not seen this one before. Curious whether this is an 09 or 10? Early photos show this body with furnished both standard Touring style handles, and also Bale handles. Could have been dictated by the body supplier I guess....anyone have data on this?
Regards,
Scott

Scott Rosenthal

Hello Joe: Many thanks, but I believe I have arrived at the happy place. The axles are new, and they are the ones that are 1/16" over-length. At the time when I bought them, I was led to understand they were the best of the repos available, where I knew these parts had this specific potential, so it...

Scott Rosenthal

Hello Alex: Curious what version of the Atwood Castle 120 you have. If not already aware, there are literally dozens of versions of this lamp, which were sold as not only Atwood Castle, but at a minimum also Castle Lamp Co. and Dietz Lamp Co.. These lamps all display the same basic construction with...

Scott Rosenthal

Hello Mario: I recommend you create an elevation view layout of this, to keep on top of the dimensions of the parts you are using. When I researched this top for a 12 I did a couple of years ago, I found that all sockets and all bows, are not created equal. These length and radius variations were la...

Scott Rosenthal

brake drum gap ls 1-14-2020.jpg After research and much consideration, I elected to build spacers between my hub and drums. The desired aesthetic result has been achieved as shown. When I got the wheels off, I noticed a fresh cut had been taken on my hub-to-drum surfaces, which certainly accounted ...

Scott Rosenthal

Hello Mario: Note RV's comment about the wedge that is required for #4 bow. I'm not sure whether this is a strictly aesthetic adder, or whether this is intended to reinforce this bow. Seems logical this end bow will see more stress and therefore tendency to sag if this supplemented support wood is n...

Scott Rosenthal

#904 rear end 1-5-2020.jpg Much like my example, this early 09 rear end has similar random drum gap showing on both sides. This known car has the original style straight axles, where adjusting the gaps would be similarly complicated. I have to question whether these gaps would have been more proble...

Scott Rosenthal

Charley: Right hand or left hand needed? If you spin a new lower Tier top, should be easy. I spoke to a noted brass restorer (RB) who estimated 3-4K to restore one of these perfectly. Not sure what your client has in mind, but assume this cost has not likely changed in the last 2 years. What does a ...

Scott Rosenthal

Keith notes how parts of original upholstery were pieced together by suppliers back in the day. That's the way my cushions are made...if you look close, you see dye lot and grain variations, that nobody would notice unless you went looking for them. I had abundant scraps and thought to give this a t...

Scott Rosenthal

Wish I could help out Charley. I have a pile of 104A's but all have boogered up large chimney tier. Got chimney caps, 3 lug fonts, burners, glass, reflectors, if you need any of that A/C stuff. How about a 204 tail lamp?
Regards,
Scott

Scott Rosenthal

attachment] seat front 12 touring 1-1-2020.jpg Hello Michael: These show my home done 12 Touring upholstery job. These cushions were made using cut off scraps from this and another car project. The diamonds were individually sewn together, then padded to suit. This cushion frame is one of Snyders re...

Scott Rosenthal

Hello Michael: Sounds like you have been down this road before, so pardon if comments here are info already assumed. Seat backs for the 1911 Touring models will vary depending on who produced the body. Front and back seat backs and cushions will be unique dimensionally, where the rear is not only wi...

Scott Rosenthal

Charley:
Either one of the tail lamps shown in second photo have a usable door on it?
Regards Scott

Scott Rosenthal

1909 Castle #204 side lamps 12-30-2019.jpg These are Castle #204 side lamps as were furnished to Ford for 1909. Trying to locate the #204 tail lamp to accompany with this set. Chimney tops say The Castle Lamp Co. Elmira NY, although The Castle Lamp Co. and the Atwood Mfg. Co. were corporately combi...

Scott Rosenthal

Hello Michael: Got a good friend who just received one of ML's Jno Brown tanks back in July I believe. Super nice piece....an absolutely credible repo. I'm sure there are originals out there in good condition, but I suspect many if not most may be early hobby repos. I have a late 1950's T parts cata...

Scott Rosenthal

Hello Art: I replaced these channels on my brass Rand windshield, and will say the process is not complex, but not done well without some practice. Use your old channel and practice first. Channel sticks are costly....I got the best price from Speedway, who sell it by the foot. Bend areas are anneal...

Scott Rosenthal

Hello Michael:
Perhaps others have already mentioned Mike Leibsak as a repro source for this brass generator?
Regards,
Scott

Scott Rosenthal

axle variation.jpg A member here was kind enough to send this shot of axle length variations that are consistent with .16 overage that I'm seeing. Also notice the 3rd shaft down has the cotter hole aligned with the keyseat. If not mistaken, this Ford machine drawing shows this hole perpendicular to...

Scott Rosenthal

brake drum gap.jpg This shows the .16" gap. No it's not horrible, but no need to have these calipers showing if this can be addressed. When shot in Brewster Green and pinstriped this would not be as conspicuous. However, got a ton of time in this rear end, and will have much more with the finishing...

Scott Rosenthal

Hello Dan: Yes, this has been a head scratcher for me for a while. Options with solid potential are: a) new wider drum trimmed to fit b) splice current drums to wider then machine to desired width c) remachine taper to scoot drum inboard d) Build doughnut spacers between hub and drum a) through c) s...

Scott Rosenthal

Many thanks Les et all...the options list grows. I thought of having wider drums made, where I would make these let say .38" wider so that anyone with the same condition would turn to whatever width specs needed. When I mentioned this problem months ago, multiple folks contacted me to say they had s...

Scott Rosenthal

Hello Les: Say more about altering the gear side of the shaft. If the shaft gear is backed away from the c-rings (lets assume 5/32" (.16) for this example) now the c-ring thickness either needs to increase by 5/32", or some other spacer is required to occupy the now increased groove width. Hello And...

Scott Rosenthal

Not enough gap you're going to throw a cat through it, but I know I can make this a better looking job. I'm taking this rear end back apart for finishing, so it is coming back apart regardless. Hank's recommendation came to mind, but then there also needs to be a spacer made to fill the widened C-ri...

Scott Rosenthal

Apologies....type O....gap is .16"

Scott Rosenthal

Merry Christmas John. This could be the case...or maybe related to some housing tolerance...not seeing any particular root cause, but have heard the same issue from others. I'm also told some early originals display this. At any rate, I'm noodling what a practical invisible fix might be, for those w...

Scott Rosenthal

I have an axle that extends .016" outward of ideal position. Gap between the shafts inside this differential is perfect....just enough gap for the ear disc. This leaves an exposed gap between the brake drum and the backing plate. Has someone here shortened a repro axle shaft by turning back the tape...

Scott Rosenthal

tail lamp 204.docx: (95.14 KiB) Downloaded 62 times

Scott Rosenthal

Better Photo thanks to Dan. Looks just like #204 side lamp, but has red lens panel instead of one of the clear square glasses.
Regards,
Scott

Scott Rosenthal

Thanks TBird....I sent Email....will see if a response happens.
Regards,
Scott

Scott Rosenthal

Scott Rosenthal

: castle tsil lamp 12-7-2019.jpg (14.37 KiB) Viewed 744 times

Best photo I have.
Regards,
Scott

Scott Rosenthal

WTB - Castle brass #204 Tail Lamp or related #204 parts. Scott Rosenthal (513)378-4235

Scott Rosenthal

A little history of this car. This reproduction Town Car was commissioned to be built by Henry Austin Clark, The builder is Leonard Davis, who was know as a premier early body maker and early restoration specialist. When the HAC Museum closed, the car was auctioned to Dick Williams of the Mennen Per...

Scott Rosenthal

Would be great if there was more available data surrounding these early T parts suppliers. As per this thread, there appear to be bits and pieces of documentation related to the lamps, but no sustained historic resource. Sure would like to know why and when some of these various suppliers disappeare...

Scott Rosenthal

Alex: I cast them in Yellow brass because of the marginal quality of today's brass plating. Originals are heavy brass plated that can be repeatedly polished without wiping the brass off. You can lacquer coat these, but this is temporary protection and will rapidly tarnish under the lacquer. Some hav...

Scott Rosenthal

Yep, this is another one of those "rare enough" parts where casting is probably warranted, but then enough folks need to need them to make the cost reasonable. Every once in a while one shows up here. I'm in no great hurry, so we'll see if one turns up. Thanks all.
Scott

Scott Rosenthal

Correct Mike. These may have been supplied up into 1911....have heard this but am not the expert. Definitely only one bracket out there that does not have the grease hole.
thx,
Scott

Scott Rosenthal

WTB #T-932 early steering to frame bracket. This style has no threaded hole for a grease cup, and has the T-932 casting embossment.
Regards, Scott (513)378-4235

Scott Rosenthal

I posted this but do not see these comments showing up, so please excuse if this is a duplication. The early style teacup can be retrofitted using the excellent turned repro cup sold by the vendors. This cup gets shortened and attaches with a threaded male nipple and JB Weld. Exterior gets body fini...

Scott Rosenthal

Sold to Gene in NJ pending payment. Thx Gene and thx MTFCA.
Scott

Scott Rosenthal

Spider is solid brass, not plated.
SR

Scott Rosenthal

Scott Rosenthal

Brass spider with Mahogany rim. Very good quality of brass finish, with brass mounting screws. Rim O.D. is 14.75" $250.00 plus shipping/handling. (513)378-4235

steering wheel 11-26-2019.jpg

Scott Rosenthal

Brass spider with Mahogany rim. Very good quality of brass finish, with brass mounting screws. $250.00 plus shipping/handling. (513)378-4235

Scott Rosenthal

Thanks for the kind comments Bob. A variable of striping seldom discussed is line weight (thickness of the stripe) Looks like common width is around .09", but there are those where the line is less than .06". My 09 has this original striping,where the thinner line work is an exceptional free-hand ex...

Scott Rosenthal

These stripes were copied from early photos. I did find considerable variation for the wheel stripes. Some have dual fellow stripes, some just one stripe. Got a photo of HF sitting in a 12 Touring that has elaborate wheel striping on both sides of the wheels. One configuration commonly seen for hood...

Scott Rosenthal

Scott: I fully agree with your assessment when using modern reproduction triple gears. The used parts method I outlined does not result in any alterations to the early gearbox, where there are no issues that prevent a full return to the original 4:1 setup, if so desired. As to the performance benefi...

Scott Rosenthal

Hello Art: I retrofitted 2 1912's and a 1909 with the 5:1 gear setup because knowledgeable others here have advised that this retrofit prevents the steering wheel from being jerked out of your hands in the event of hitting an obstacle. Never had this happen to me, but heard this can be a very danger...

Scott Rosenthal

Just my opinion Alex...I think so. I have an A/C #120, an A/C #120A, and a Castle Lamp #120A (almost identical to A/C #120). The A/C #120A is my favorite and it's the one I use on my 09 Touring. I have it set up as a working brake light (that later hardware can be fully removed as needed). Regards, ...

Scott Rosenthal

Has someone here researched Benson Ford Archives to know whether supplier invoices for a given model year are stored together in a directory? If so, then is it be possible to identify all suppliers of record of a given component for that model year? I'm told (I do not know this first hand) that ther...

Scott Rosenthal

Hello Alex: As these links show, the chimney and the bale handle are the differences between these two AC styles. There are at least two different configurations of the #120. One has no handle, one has a bale handle mounted on top. Both have the "nipple" shaped chimney cap. There is also a A/C #120X...

Scott Rosenthal

Many thanks Jem: The Yellow Touring with Tan interior sounds like it may be one that Harrah's had, matching this general description. I sent a note to my SA connection today, where I believe there may a SA club member who was creating a registry for Model T's. Seems I recall this was maybe 2 years a...

Scott Rosenthal

finney 1912 7-3-2018.jpg Hello Frank: Glad to oblige. The accompanying car in the foreground is Jim Finney's fabulous 1912 original. Town Cars don't come anymore rare that this one. Jim allowed me to measure and photograph this car which resulted in mine. Not shown is Jim's original coach interior ...

Scott Rosenthal

Not sure what the deal was there. Had to go to the website where I found this and re-copy it to get it to go. Guess I corrupted something.
Scott

Scott Rosenthal

: 1912 British Town Car.jpg (78.25 KiB) Viewed 724 times

Let see if this works

Scott Rosenthal

1912_Ford_Model_T_Town_Car right hand drive.jpg

Sorry about that....the photo showed up in the preview?

Scott Rosenthal

This shows a RH Drive 1912 T/C with the roof rail installed. I will assume that there is a roof mounted fixture for securing a spare, when used. This photo does not clearly show the wire fencing that is part of this rail assembly.

1912_Ford_Model_T_Town_Car right hand drive.jpg

Scott Rosenthal

Anath:
There are also photos of Town Cars where a spare is located on the fixed roof above the driver. Those that I have seen also have a short rail mounted to the same roof, that surrounds the spare.
Regards,
Scott

Scott Rosenthal

Hello Jem:t Your block looks identical to the #9269 block, where both have the Ford scrip, and neither has an embossed casting date. Thanks for this info. Sorry to hear the no-rivet rear end is on hold. I'm curious how these repairs are to be executed, but am certain this is a salvageable situation....

Scott Rosenthal

Hello Jem: Do you have the original engine block in yours, and if so, is there a FORD script cast into the lower drive side of the block casting? I have a photo somewhere of the #9269 block, and it has this feature. Also, would you happen to know approximately how many 1909 Model Year survivors ther...

Scott Rosenthal

Hello Stu: Highland Park Plant went on line Jan 1st 1910, where I think it probable that the entire assembly department was relocated there a year later in 1911. I think a fair question is whether King, Lewis, and Spangler actually filled out these documents. I would not be surprised if they signed ...

Scott Rosenthal

Hello Jagman: Not certain that Spangler and Lewis relocated to Highland Park. I've looked at a few 1910 Build Sheets where both appear to have been regulars. A Foreman named "King" also shows up on a number of these sheets. Hello Dan: Certain is that the cars were processed as rapidly as the process...

Scott Rosenthal

9269 build sheet 10-16-2019.jpg Attached is the #9269 Build Sheet that shows this build having drug out for an amazing 3 months. Given that it took me a week and (3) 1909 cars reviewed to come up with a similar delayed production example, seems unlikely this type of delayed production condition was...

Scott Rosenthal

Nice Job Tony....looks sharp.
Scott

Scott Rosenthal

Hello Tony: Is there a board reinforcement material that is used under the leather for your door upholstery? I have seen known reupholstered examples both with and without this reinforcement, but not an original that I am aware. I wonder if maybe the board may have been used when the rear door had a...

Scott Rosenthal

Apologies gentlemen....serial number typeO....that should read "car number 926X" shipped on August 17, 1909.
SR

Scott Rosenthal

Hello Wayne: You can copy the link "file:///C:/Users/Owner/Documents/1909%20ford%20stuff/inspection%20sheet%2010-11-2019.jpg" then paste this in your Browser, then click ENTER. inspection sheet 10-11-2019.jpg Shortly after your post, I received notice that another car from similar time frame #626X, ...

Scott Rosenthal

Thanks Wayne: Attached is the Build Sheet portion that shows these inspection dates, along with the customary BFA translation sheet. These micro-fish copies are very poor quality, so unless the hard copy was retained somewhere, this is it. The full dates are fuzzy, however the days shown here are co...

Scott Rosenthal

I have a Build Sheet that lists the date of Dept. "D" chassis assembling as 3/22/1909, with the Dept. "C" car assembling on 5/22/1909. Others have suggested that the 3/22/1909 may be an error where 5/22/1909 is the correct Dept. "D" date. I'm not the expert, but seems improbable to me that this enti...

Scott Rosenthal

Many thanks Trent. Do you happen to have an opinion as to my second question regarding the duration(s) between chassis assembly and final assembly of the whole car? Also can you speak to whether final inspection assumed that all finishing work was completed. For instance, would a function like pin s...

Scott Rosenthal

Hello All: Curious what the earliest 09 was where the frame was no longer modified with reinforcing Fish Plates. I've heard estimates on this, but not seen or heard of actual surviving documentation? Ford Build Sheets show a date for chassis assembly inspection, and a date for finished car inspectio...

Scott Rosenthal

Hello Bob:
That's an early12-late 13, not 11. 11 has the same smooth formed flange with bottom holes at the same elevation.
Regards,
Scott

Scott Rosenthal

Hello Gary: Bad news is that it is not possible to remove or replace the #78 lens without wrecking this brass retainer plate. The lens was rolled into the plate as it was being formed, so some amount of this retaining diameter would need to be removed in order to extract the old lens and load the ne...

Scott Rosenthal

Hello Tony: I had assumed that the axle cotter hole would be located in a standard radial position relative to the keyway, but learned after the fact that this is not so. Perhaps this is a condition that developed as random suppliers and repro shafts were later produced, but regardless, I have 2 sha...

Scott Rosenthal

Hello Tony: Please post a photo of the problematic rear hub, glad to try to help out. Pardon if I may be misunderstanding your rear wheel issue....sounds like you're concerned about pinning the tapered axle castle nut....is this correct? I too fabricated early style tapered hubs and had no issues wi...

Scott Rosenthal

Hello Dan: I researched Bruce's Black Book to find info about the S leftovers...Bruce thought this happened sometime in July, but this does not mean the practice was not on-going at some rate before that. Related, I have not seen any data that shows aluminum bodies being offered to buyers as optiona...

Scott Rosenthal

Thanks Dan: I can imagine multiple scenarios where various duration delays of early production could have been necessary. I have read where engines were built up and stored, but not seen anything other than photos showing rows of chassis without bodies. This at a time when Ford was covered up in bac...

Scott Rosenthal

The Chassis Assembly of my 1909 Touring predated the Car Assembly by a full 2 months. Recent discussion of developmental features caused me to revisit my Build Sheet where this information is recorded. This duration sounds especially lengthy, suggesting that the Piquet Avenue plant was either jam pa...

Scott Rosenthal

Hello Bill: I have similar curiosity about this bolt and question when in the serial numbers this hardware transition occurred...having not heard or seen anything documented. Certain is that the spring loaded fasteners were developed to address flex and vibration. I predict someone will question thi...

Scott Rosenthal

Hello Michael: A contact for steam bent bows is: Mel Draper, Geromesville, Ohio (419) 368-3226. Tell Mel that you also need a 48" length of this same lumber to create the rear bow wedge. Not sure who if anyone is making a kit top for pre-1913 cars. If there is such a supplier, I would be curious abo...

Scott Rosenthal

Not sure whether dimensional differences are due to early or late, but distance from tops of sockets to tops of bows on my 09 are much different than those posted here. They are: Front 8.0, 9.25, 9.75. Rear 9.50. The critical dimensions may be the distance from socket pivot points to the outer tops ...

Scott Rosenthal

Hello Michael: Bows are 56" wide outside to outside. Top dimensions and construction varied slightly in design and construction, where there were a number of top suppliers for 1909. Also note how the rear bow has a wedge shaped slat on top, that is there for aesthetics and sag resistance. Curious wh...

Scott Rosenthal

Hello Layden:
Please see my response sent to laydenandjean@comcast.net.
Regards,
Scott

Scott Rosenthal

Sent you PM Rodger....did you not receive this?
Thx,
Scott

Scott Rosenthal

Hello Roger:
I will take the Nonperiel if still available. Will send you PM.
Regards,
Scott

Scott Rosenthal

Bill: See my note about shipping cost.
Thx,
Scott

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