MTFCA Forum

Drkbp

Thank you for posting that E bracket.

Original running boards in US are punched from June '12 through
about March 1915. Not sure about Walkerville, Ont. No need to
drill holes for the E bracket.

I have this bracket set; the other common type POL tank mount.

Ken

Drkbp

John, The "Model T" burners are rated at 3/4-cubic foot of gas consumption per hour and as has been mentioned are above the recommended for the Motor Cycle tank. See if you can find two 1/2-cubic foot burners and they should work fine with the MC tank. You may be having a regulator problem at low ps...

Drkbp

Bryan, Best way I've found to find a filled Prest-O-Lite tank is to ask the supply house to let me look at their B-tank rack of filled cylinders. Below is a photo of acetylene B-tanks at an Airgas near me where I exchanged a POL tank for another POL tank I posted above. There were two (arrows) POL t...

Drkbp

The Prest-O-Lite "B" tanks are what I have been using for about ten years. I suggest setting up your headlamps/burners with an acetylene tank even if you use carbide later. You don't want to break a Mangin reflector with a leaking burner or base. I wasn't able to find a POL regulator that Keith has ...

Drkbp

Toll House car has John Brown 19's and below is another photo of that car. It has 1913 California plates and seems to have the buckets painted black. The White Pole Garage, Oakland, Ca. with a batch of new 1913's with the John Brown 19's (little harder to see). Another dealer in Colchester, Illinois...

Drkbp

Rich, Properly positioned (front to back) the 44-inch tube ends about 4" back from the lower radiator tank so you can connect it with a short piece of hose. It's set up to be installed from the back. So after it went through the clamp and the crankcase block into the engine compartment, I moved it o...

Drkbp

Rich, I just looked at my rear gas line and the crankcase support block was notched on lower inside corner to allow the brass tubing through. The steering block on mine wasn't notched enough so I just caught it forward of the steering with the short piece of hose to the radiator piping. Ran it under...

Drkbp

It is called the Rear Gas Line and is 44-inches long. Same size tubing as radiator cross-over. Beginning about June/July of 1912, the radiators were supplied with the crossover piping soldered to the radiator and the brass radiator shroud punched on each side with a 1/2" hole for the rubber gas hose...

Drkbp

Verne, Did you have the clock glass silvered? Really neat idea! It would be easy enough to mount a clock glass in the headlight and light a good burner set as far forward in the burner slot as you can get. Getting the burner forward may help save the clock glass. If the clock glass survived driving ...

Drkbp

Keith, James Lyons helped us understand the Mangins in 2015 and I saved that post. I had already found the focus position earlier that year and was driving with the Prest-O-Lite tank. You can't be too far off if you just mount the burner stand in the slot. I noticed last night that I had the burner ...

Drkbp

You set the burner pipe center ( the flame) at the focal point of the Mangin. The standard focal point is 2-7/16" from the mirror back and the dimension "F" in the chart below. "D" is the 1-3/8" dimension of a 6" #3209 Mangin in the chart already posted above. That leaves the burner center one-inch ...

Drkbp

I haven't used those (the link you posted) as I found some Lancaster Mangins that snug up to the shape of the rear of the headlight buckets properly. I believe you will have mounting difficulties and possible problems as Dan notes. There are "plate" mirrors in some late Victor acetylene lamps and ar...

Drkbp

Just noticed in the second photo that the car is equipped
with an acetylene headlamp often found on bicycles of the
day. I drive with my John Brown 16's, and 110's, and that driver
would have been impressed with the improvement of just three
or four years!

Drkbp

Third photo from the top.... Another example of a 1913 Runabout
with a "1914 style" beaded turtle deck. Thank you Tom for your posting.

Drkbp

Crooksville Auto Garage building has survived.
300 East Main Street, Crooksville, Ohio

Drkbp

Another Landaulet from the New York Show in December 1908.
A two lever shown with headlamps.

Drkbp

Third picture appears to be a rather new 1917 Town Car with a 1917 California Plate.
Last picture seems to be a 1917 TC with a New Jersey 1919 plate.
Thank you for the TC photos.

Drkbp

From a bit of Washington License Plate History.... The 1916 plate was first year for Washington and "WN 10672" issued between June 15 / July 15 of 1915 and expired on February 29, 1916. After 1916, "N" was underlined. Photo between June 1915 and February 1916. Before summer of 1915, it was a leather...

Drkbp

Appears to be a 1916 Washington license plate.
West Coast camping/fishing trip.....

Drkbp

First photo of the '15 seems to have a 1940 New Jersey Dealer plate.

Drkbp

It could be the neighborhood around the 140 Edison Street Ford home.
It's only 1-3/4 miles down Woodward Avenue to Edison Street from the
Highland Park plant.

Drkbp

Eric,
I believe it's a canvas bucket. There is another one opened up under
the car to catch oil that was running out on the floor. Hence the gas
and oil tanks. Lotsa oil at this stage of the automobile!

Do you have any dates on the neighborhood street photos?

Drkbp

Eric, In your Dec. 8, 2022, post, I believe the racer shown is the 1-Car with Frank Kulick at the wheel. Also, the fellow in the "mechanic seat" may be another Ford race driver of the day, William Gruener. Frank Kulick's 1-Car had the Gas/Oil tank mounted longitudinal behind the driver. Unusual for ...

Drkbp

Bryan, Before you use the carbide I recommend you check your light system: gas light burners, burner bases, hose and rear gas line with an acetylene MC or B tank. I would take the mirrors out of the headlamps if you do it in the car outside your shop. Once you get the proper flame and check for leak...

Drkbp

Thank you for the parts list Frank..... Bryan, Since good 6" mirrors are so hard to find, you may want to check what kind of pad is behind your mirrors, or if there is one at all. The back of the Mangin is silvered and coated with shellac and the "MANGIN - BAD BACK" picture below is one I took out o...

Drkbp

Bryan, I believe Peter is correct and that's all there was. If you light with the car running there is considerable vibration so I have a couple pieces of electrical tape inside the rim to be sure the retainer does not come out of the groove and the lens falls. Had the same lens for years. Just be s...

Drkbp

Bryan,
Are you talking about the retaining ring shown in this headlamp rim?
I have John Brown 16s and made mine from brass rod which snaps in
the groove provided in the headlamp rim.

Drkbp

Last photo is an example of what seems to happen often,
the headlamps are one supplier and side lamps another.
In this case, the side lamps are E&J.

Drkbp

With John Browns from Ford, 1912 - 1914, depended on what two headlamps you got. Here is a '12 with two JB lefts and another with two JB rights (hinges). E&J's of this time period were all lamp hinge left. Since you have a L & R "pair", I like the knurled knobs out on mine so I can close and secure ...

Drkbp

Here is another late 1912 with the short support rod behind the windshield and has 1917 New Jersey plates. Appears to have been in a collision on the right front and repairs made with a acetylene Black & Brass John Brown 16 and a 1915 three rivet front fender. Electrified John Brown 19 still on the ...

Drkbp

The 8th picture appears to be a mid-summer 1914 chassis with
the steel crank handle. Still uses the spade mounted side lamps.
Both acetylene gas lines and clamps for the headlamps show up.

Drkbp

This is a factory photo of the late 1914 style touring with the four rivet "peaked" fender. Some call them "1915's" as they show in the "Ford line for 1915". Black painted firewall, E & J 32 side lamps with one piece font, etc. A little hard to see but this example also has the cross bead on the wid...

Drkbp

Late 1912, June near #132,000 and on, would have had their running boards punched for the carbide generators too. Anyone have a photo of those?
Someone commented years ago about having one of the 1912 examples.

Drkbp

Wayne, Your comment above about the four rivet fenders got me to looking at some old '15 photos. I'm sure you have seen this one but is the only one I have. At the 1915 San Francisco exposition assembly line Ford set up. The four rivet pattern is clear on the front passenger fender and also can be s...

Drkbp · Re: Model T Key The 4-12-13 drawing revision.

The 4-12-13 drawing revision.

Drkbp

Matt, I have the same lid you have and it is the original style. I attach a photo of a very nice repro 1913-14 lid with cutouts to clear the knurled nut. I couldn't tell from your photos, but the bolts that hold the metal coil box to the firewall have a "flat" side on them. It's to aid in installati...

Drkbp

It appears that your coil point adjustment nuts near the firewall are too high. I just took this picture of the coil box in my July 1913 Touring a few minutes ago that have been in that box for 6 or 7,000 miles. Poor light but the knurled nut near the firewall on each of my coils appear to be lower ...

Drkbp

Art, I am not much help but I have one of those very early 1914 Touring cars you mentioned, engine #312.4XX, body by Beaudette, also known as Pontiac. By engine number, it was assembled in July of 1913 and the body is dated 13 on the front seat support wood. Mine was repainted probably in the 1950's...

Drkbp

As George H mentioned above, the 15th photo of the 1915 Touring appears to have
1915 New York license plates and the unusual two-piece font side lamps often discussed.

Drkbp

Here is another block cast 11-22-11, and number 93,823(?) (February 1912).
This seems like the "bump" example Keith posted above. The casting date
is over the water inlet.

Drkbp

The eighth photo down is an interesting touring car. The new style cowl with an after market hood
and radiator. Gas headlamps and a Prest-O-Lite tank. The license plate appears to be a 1917 Oregon.

Drkbp

You may want to check what you have first..... 1) Does your carbide generator have a 3 or 4-hole mounting base? 2) Does your radiator have a cross-over gas tube? 3) Are your running boards and splash shield already punched? If so..... The hole pattern is 5" x 5-1/4" on the 4-hole to leave the gas su...

Drkbp

Easy check on your radiator, timing and fuel settings...... See what the temperature of your coolant really is. You can do that running at idle in your driveway. Never had a Motormeter but you're probably fine. The car is designed to run near 200 degrees. I run 50/50 antifreeze in my July 1913 engin...

Drkbp

I assume there are no side lamp brackets on your car..... If you don't want to change your firewall, or drill more holes in it, check the location of the side lamp holes. Your firewall side lamp mounting hole locations will indicate "integral bracket", or the earlier "separate bracket". Would be my ...

Drkbp

A full-scale aftermarket body business was in play while the "new" 1915 and 1916 Ford open cars were in production. John C. Nagel's Detroit company was selling complete 1916 Touring car bodies, tops, lamps and all, in his 29 June 1916 adds in the Motor Age magazine (red dot). Also, Nagel had adds in...

Drkbp

Great photos! I noticed photograph #11 above has the rare side lamps we discussed some years back that seem to have been made by the Indiana Lamp Company. Used only between car number 6,900 and 10,601 in the Shipping Invoices and noted in Bruce's book, page 477, under LAMPS as "M&E". Scott posted ph...

Drkbp

Appears to be 1911 Ohio plates on a rather new car with electric headlamps.
First class!

Drkbp

Vernon,
Yes you are correct. Here is a 1914 that sat idling on my driveway for an hour.
Kitchen thermometer.

Drkbp

It appears that Ford shipped 1913 cars and chassis with the headlamps packed separately to be installed at the off-load/dealer location. Probably in a box of two lamps Ford received from the manufacturer. Notice in these two different locations that the side lamps are mounted but not the acetylene h...

Drkbp

Rich, I have John Brown 16's, a left and right, and have them the way you have yours. Works great and don't have any problem with the rim touching the radiator fins. John Brown made their 16's in left and rights and I believe Corcoran and Victor did as well. It seems E&J made all their Black & Brass...

Drkbp

I would get what you had if the glass fit the rim properly and was secure. I have John Brown 16's and a ring holds the flat glass against the rim securely so the lens doesn't fall out while you are lighting up and have the doors open. Heat is not a problem for the front lens. Like you say, I'll ligh...

Drkbp

The second photo has a pair of T touring cars which may
be almost new.
They appear to have Wisconsin 1915 license plates.

Drkbp

Sharp eye Wayne,
Appears to be a 1916 Wisconsin plate.
Note the left half of the "W" under the
mounting slot in the plate.

Drkbp

Victor generator with the embossed water tank.
The "hook" water control and side clamp style sets them
apart from the others.

Drkbp

Tim,

I noticed that the lower left two cars appear to have the short slanted front fender "bill".

The "equal size" windshield glass panel types are also obvious on several of the cars.
Shows as more rake in the lower panel, yellow arrows. I believe they are Rands, or Vanguard.

Drkbp

Interesting showroom in last photograph.... J. E. Carson and Son's showroom in Colchester, Illinois, well stocked with new 1913 style Black & Brass cars. However, the first two on the lower right, red arrows (and three across from them) appear to have John Brown 19 and John Brown 100 all brass lamps...

Drkbp

Mark, Your top photo is a 1914 car and that dash for U.S. cars was drilled both sides for the carburetor mixture control. The dash can be used on either a RHD or LHD car. That patent plate covers the unused "mixture control hole". On my July 1913 Touring, the tag is right above the steering column a...

Drkbp

Craig, 1. The Corcoran B&B acetylene generators may be distinguished by the tank vertical seam next to the gas output tube (on the lower tank pictured below and a little hard to see). Also, it has the one-piece basket inside. The instruction sheet was found inside the generator. 2, The one Dan poste...

Drkbp

The 1915/16 Touring does appear to have a New York 1916 plate.

Drkbp

Yes, but by 1915/16 it isn't just after market lamps and "parts"...... It could be a $90 aftermarket touring body on a 1912 -14 chassis, who knows? John C. Nagel, of Detroit, was selling new 1915 and 1916 Ford open bodies even as the cars were coming off the assembly line. The $65 crated 1915 Roadst...

Drkbp

Steven, The 1913 in photo #6 with the POL "E" tank appears to have jeweled John Brown-110 side lamps. Those and the tail lamp are kerosene. With the wicks trimmed and set, they also will illuminate for about 24 hours. Ford didn't use acetylene tail lights but I tried a Victor-461 since I use a POL f...

Drkbp

Steven, The valves on the Prestolite tanks are offset near the edge of the tank so they can be laid on the running board and not have the acetone come out with the acetylene gas. The "B" tank on the dock below was for my 1914 Touring and will run the headlamps for about 24 hours. That is a lot of dr...

Drkbp

Andy, The latest dated trans shaft I have a photo of is "12-3-14", so at least through calendar 1914. Yes, #312,XXX is an early 1914 style Beaudette Touring car with the 1913 style center back panel. Ford had trouble with the 1913 style touring bodies and seem to have started using the 1914 style th...

Drkbp

Andy, Bruce's Book seems to be pretty accurate on the engine build dates shown for calendar 1913. He notes on Page 507: "Records show that 300,000 was built on July 16, at 1:25 P.M." I have #312,XXX shown as being assembled Thursday, July 17, 1913, the next day. My Trans Stub Shaft is dated the prev...

Drkbp

Leo,

The fourth picture is one of the Ford racers. Gruener is the driver.

Ken

Drkbp

Joe, You are looking for two 6-inch diameter Mangin mirror glass reflectors. That is what the Model T headlamps were designed to use. I have attached a photo of some 3/4 burners and a 6" Mangin mirror made by "Lancaster" I have in my '14. In chart, the "MacBeth No. 3209" would be the same dimension ...

Drkbp

Kevin, Go to: the Encyclopedia, scroll down just a bit and hit the orange button titled "Go to the old version of the Encyclopedia", scroll down left margin to "Lamps" and pick the year. The "blue" tab entries will show the associated lamp for the year and manufacturer. Not all the Brass & Black ver...

Drkbp

Rodeo seems to have been taking place in what is now "Jackson Field".
Ninety-nine years later from East Gallego Avenue....
Sul Ross in the background

Drkbp

Darel,

Here is another one with the door handle in that position.
A two-lever E&J lamps but has a top.
That is a Briscoe on that too.

Drkbp

Ashley, Indiana is 30 miles north of Fort Wayne, Indiana
and 120 miles southwest of Detroit, Michigan.
Light colored running boards. Linoleum?, hard to tell..
May be one of the very early cars.

Drkbp

Thank you John .....
Note on the post card appears to be:

Pa Clute taken
in Ashley, Ind(iana)
Ella & Edgar by
gate - 1908

Probably ... Oscar M. Clute circled in the touring with step daughter
Ella Clute and toddler Edgar Clute (18 months old) circled at the gate.

Drkbp

They resemble those on this T at the New York show in December 1908.
The number one socket (would be your 23") is in place and not visible but
you can see where it goes to drop the top.

Drkbp

Paul O,

Check the top center of the rear seat kick panel.
My July 1913 Touring (Beaudette) is marked "B" on the rear seat kick panel.
The only actual date stamped on the drive train during assembly is on the transmission stub shaft,
probably in June 1914 with the July 1914 on the body.

Ken

Drkbp

Paul O,

Your body may be by Herbert.
Both Hayes and Herbert are listed as body makers during the Spring of 1914
on tags attached to new cars. That may be a "H" over an "R" to distinguish
it from Hayes.
Is there any stamp on the heel kick panels? Maybe Hap has a sample for Herbert.

Ken

Drkbp

Wayne,
I have a little better copy of the car in your last post, second picture.
It appears to have Ford's 1914 Michigan Manufacturers Plate on it, 5005M.
Ken

Drkbp

It probably does and would likely be the bottom dimensional arrow.
That's all I have ever seen posted of that drawing.

Drkbp

Thank you Keith T for the draw-down cautions and experience with the MC tank. Also, DO NOT enclose these fuel tanks in tool boxes, non-working carbide generators, under touring car seats, or any other enclosed or poorly ventilated areas! Keith T's last post at 10:00 a.m. is spot on. I went by Airgas...

Drkbp

Jerry, I use a small Uniweld Regulator on a Prest-O-Lite "B" tank. I'm sure the welding supply can set it up on a Motor Cycle tank. I set it to about 4 to 5-psi. Then the small Radnor acetylene valve (located between the radiator side panel and each headlamp) allows you to set the flame right where ...

Drkbp

Bryan, You can still find Prest-O-Lite "B" tanks with the off-set valve. These you may lay on their side as Wayne says with the valve "up" on the running board. They do not have the "pressure valve gauge" in the bottom which precludes them from being filled today. There is a plug where the old "Pres...

Drkbp

Fred, You need to fabricate the crossover pipe. It solders to the fins of the radiator. The "tee" and two small 2-inch pieces of tubing are shown below. The single long piece not shown in the cropped photo of tubing is about 14-1/2-inches on my Brass Works radiator. It lays against the fins, "tee" o...

Drkbp

Fred,
So, you do have the 1/2"-inch holes for the acetylene hose in the radiator
side panels?
Do you have the 1/2"-inch acetylene gas hole in the driver side
splash shield?
Ken

Drkbp

Fred,
Does your radiator have the acetylene "crossover tube" soldered to the engine side?
Ken

Drkbp

I have the square John Browns and they use the same.
Pack of 5 wicks says "1/2-inch" but they are a little under.
Easy to keep trimmed and set correctly. I use K1.
The round lamps use smaller wicks.

Drkbp

It looks like he had that car set up to drive at night; maybe rural Kansas - who knows... The headlamps appear to be larger and set higher than stock Ford gas lamps. Probably 7-inch mirrors which would use a 1-cubic foot burner. I believe I see a Prest-O-Lite tank on the running board??? Compared to...

Drkbp

Michael,

Do you have the square lamps, '09 to '14, or round '15 up?

Ken

Drkbp

Steve,
Who made the body?

Drkbp

Appears to have 1912 Illinois plates.

Drkbp

Appears to have John Brown 16 headlights and 110 side lights, not Clasco.
Can't tell what the generator is.

Drkbp

Bruce,

Did you "lay" the links in the cable before you attached the cable to the speedometer head?

Ken

Drkbp

John Brown 19's, maybe a 1912 Torpedo.
Looks like 1917 Alberta plates.
What a load!

Drkbp

Tim, Number 16, the RHD Touring and driver has a Fez. Appears to be a Rands windscreen flipped over the wrong way on a 1914 style touring. However, the way he has it the drip edge on the top panel won't let him rotate it past the stanchions inside. Probably didn't rain much where he was. Didn't foll...

Drkbp

I have #312XXX which indicates a July 17 assembly of the engine. It is the small door "1914 style" touring body built by Beaudette. The center section of the rear tub also has a bead along the bottom edge like the '13's. June 19th block casting and the original transmission which was built on July 1...

Drkbp

I believe you guys have unstuck the 1913 in the mud...... RHD with a pup in the back!
The acetylene headlights appear to be CLASCo. with the large round side vents in the bonnets.
Also, do we see the choke-loop on the near side of the radiator, or is it more of my imagination?

Drkbp

I am also primarily interested in the Ford Black & Brass 1913/14 lamps and their variations. Would be neat to know what each manufacturer supplied. Victor and Corcoran merged in 1916 to form Corcoran. Corcoran, John Brown and Indiana Lamp Company merged in 1930 and were bought by Electric-Auto-Lite ...

Drkbp

The only lamp production figure I have run into was in an article in the May 21, 1914, issue of The Automobile. In that article, the E&J company indicated that they "practically" produce 3,500 lamps per day at their Detroit plant for Ford, enough for 700 cars. E&J seems to have had the largest share...

Drkbp

Mark, Your John Brown 110's have the red jewels on the back panel of the lamp. Those style lamps seem to have been used on the 1913 Models and earlier 1914 style cars. The old photos indicate that is what happened and I have a set on my car. The progression appears to have been: 1) jeweled, 2) plain...

Drkbp

Nice photo ...I believe it's reversed.
(Buttons on the guys vests)
Prest-O-Lite seems to have a regulator on it maybe.

Drkbp

Here is a 1914 with rear side section.
I believe Tom posted this one.

Drkbp

Did he take the Presto-O-Lite off the buggy? In the second photo of the 1914 Touring, driver has a shorter Prest-O-Lite "E" tank on the running board. The "E" tanks were 30 cubic feet of acetylene vs. the 40 cubic foot "B" tanks Ford would supply. About 3 inches shorter but the same 6" diameter and ...

Drkbp

Michael,

Very nice Victor style generator and looks great!
Do you know if it is functional?

Ken

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