MTFCA Forum

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I talk with Larry on the phone nearly every morning, usually very early (navy time), when we're having first coffee. Everything Keith and others have said is absolutely correct. I'll add only that 1) he will teach you everything he knows if you're willing to listen and 2) thirty-five years ago I rod...

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Plus treaded rear tires. That car is as sharp as a tack.

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It sure looks light enough to be an N, maybe the wheel dimensions are a clue.

From the description of the event, there were two White steamers, a society lady in a yellow touring car and a young lady learning to drive her runabout. Must have been a great sight.

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The world famous Thomas Flyer made it to Oakland in March 1908, escorted in by a parade of motorists. At least one Ford was in the mix.

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Fords are rare in early photos of the Tonopah rush, but here’s one.

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A lot of tacks along the upper passenger door on No. 1. I’ve had to redo trim worked loose by passengers getting in and out, this might be similar.

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I'm looking for a correct, 1915 switch key for the Grey Ghost. If anyone has a spare let me know, thanks.

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We can smell the pancakes already --

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Not many pure 1912 chassis photos around unfortunately. Here are a few 1913-1915 examples. Definitely glossy.

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It was glossy when new, dulling (sometimes rapidly) over time to a semigloss eggshell finish. The paint was a mix of paint and varnish called “black brushing” and applied in two coats.

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Five closed bodies in a dealership - winter bodies for converting open cars?

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“Please keep hands off brass.” The endless battle.

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Bryan, I’d stay away from a later style battery mount, especially to avoid drilling your 1914 frame.

Why not use a period solution instead? Many people installed batteries in their 1914s when new, either in a specialized battery box on the running board, or under the rear seat.

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At least three of the pre-15 brass cars here have electrified headlamps.

That ‘13 touring with the non-skids on all four keeps a presto-lite on the run board just in case. A cautious man, that one.

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Number 7 is fantastic- a three year old ‘13 with electrified lamps and a matching set of khaki summer seat covers, top boot and even interior panels. Plus a spare, rear view mirror and tool box. The man liked his accessories. Whoa - what’s that thing on a wire attached to the steering wheel rim - a ...

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The wrecked car might be a 1912 commercial roadster. It looks like it ran into something but what? A slow moving wagon? The chute from an ore bin? The sign behind might refer to CN Jackson, a commercial photographer based on Colton, CA. He was in Brawly in 1916 and in 1917 he photographed the Arrowh...

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Here's Ken's '15, with Ken at the wheel and Kim in the back seat, courtesy of Greg. Otis made a few parts for it, I think including the drive shaft.

And here she is this year.

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Otis made a few parts for Ken’s’15 touring, no longer in Washington but still on the Pacific coast. The chain of friendships and relationships is very strong with that car.

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Saw this in the Western Washington archive. Not bad for a twenty-plus year old car -

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That is one nice Model S. Too bad Ford didn't carry over that neat looking cowl onto the T.

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I'll second the thin pinstripe. Everything I've seen supports blue fenders and splash guard up to 1912, black afterwards. There is a chance the running board itself was black on the earlier cars, based on color illustrations in the Ford Times. Haven't checked an original condition car for that detai...

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Ford brochure illustrations show the boxed stripe by the center hinge, and now we see it in a photo. Fantastic. I thought the lower edge was boxed as well, but was advised differently by a forum member. His observation is confirmed by another of Tom’s photos. The stripes basically run up the front e...

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After running just fine, freely cranking, etc., the Ghost has shifted gear slightly, with all the usual signs - resistance and movement forward while cranking, etc.

Are Fords given to shifts in the night? What might have caused this?

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I use felt packing from Lang’s, never had a problem. Installed dry, works perfectly.

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The torpedo has electrified headlamp inserts too. Given the sooty side lamps, that’s just as well.

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That Duncan and Fraiser sounds like an excellent car.

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Here's a photo of my dad and his college Model T in the late forties. He doesn't remember much about it, except that he once had the rear axle out on the family dining table for some reason. And here he is this weekend, climbing on for a ride in the Grey Ghost, which has her own generations of famil...

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Polished and reinstalled the carburetor adjust rod, carburetor pull and commutator pull rods, found and installed a proper four wire loom, removed and serviced the fan assembly, reinstalled with a leather fan belt, reinstalled radiator, started her up on three quarter pulls and went to supper.

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This is the rod that came with the Ghost, welded at the fork. Signs of wear, but not sure if it's original or an older repro.

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The streetcar strikes again.

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Suddenly four rivet 1915s are everywhere, or at least more evidence for them. Here's a Ford factory photo showing the company photographers on a four rivet Ford. The side lamps are black while the headlights are black and brass, a kind of transition 15-16 feature we see a lot of (one set trimmed bra...

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The ground on the Ghost connects to one of the engine pan bolts on the forward frame. I've never questioned it but don't know if it's right. I looked for examples of ground wires to radiator studs but found none. Here's a 1915-16 Ford factory photo showing a method of towing. The ground is somewhere...

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Art, Your car’s original paint is pretty good evidence that its body and probably wheels were blue when built. It’s later than written documentation describes, but not especially so, and your car is filling in gaps in the written documentation. The color is a blue-black, according to contemporary co...

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Here are two 1914 assembly line photos from different angles, showing what looks like an unpainted adjusting rod. One 1915 factory photo shows what looks like an unpainted rod, while another on the shipping dock seems to show one painted. A garage repair photo seems to show unpainted but its hard to...

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Miss Krunchknuckle's Drywater matrons were nationally famous, often winning prizes at the annual Spoil-ye-Sports Conventions held in Chicago and Cincinnati. In this photo we see Miss Oligocene Titanothere in a light colored dress, wielding the Parasol of Righteousness with a sharp eye on the gentlem...

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Come on Herb, Sally Krunchknuckle, proprietress and chief obedience officer of the Drywater Natatorium.

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Where was Sally Krunchknuckle in all this?

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The original rod and adjustable end on my car had no traces of paint when I got them, and were a bright finished metal once cleaned. They seem consistent with the unpainted steering shaft. Wondering about the commutator rod now. The adjustable end 3538 looks like it was phased out late 15- early 16....

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Russ, thanks, it helps a lot. Something like the Model 126 would fit very neatly. The engine was missing from the car when Ken found it, but the stamped body numbers seem to read June 1915. Not much of a stretch past July, makes a lot of sense. The earliest "less speedometer" comment I found in Ford...

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Russ, thanks, that explains it. Took a look around, found a lot of cars so-equipped, including a few with the Stewart instrument panel. From ads, "less speedometer" shows up from August 1915 on, so supply issues plus an August price reduction following the earlier rebate offer? Wayne, if you get a c...

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The Ghost has a pair of holes drilled into the metal trim piece just below the windshield, 3 3/4" apart and approximately 5/16 in diameter on the right hand side of the car. The only thing I could find in the 1915 Apco catalogue was a dash light, but I don't know if it would fit. Any ideas or things...

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One where the carburetor does not close sufficiently to allow for an idle or drive at a low tempo. A shorter pull rod than spec will give this effect. I'm now looking for a surviving original. What I don't understand is how the repro pull rod that came with the car was so short. Was there an issue w...

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The Ghost came with a repro carburetor pull rod that turns out to be a tad short, resulting in an overly frisky car. The repro rod is 13 3/8" long, while Ford parts lists part 3535 as 13 13/16" to early 1915, and 14 5/16" from August 1915 on, with the adjusting end, part 3538, was dropped by early 1...

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The plain '26 cars were considered "loss leaders" in that they sold for less than their cost, but allowed Ford to advertise an extremely low price, getting customers in the door. With ninety percent of customers upgrading to electric starting/lighting, etc., Ford came out well on top in average prof...

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Jim, that's a beautiful wheel, thanks for posting the photos, it looks very solid. Everything about your car is very cool. Two original one-piece wheels have since become available from people long familiar with the Ghost and its maker. Looking forward to fitting one on the car. Wayne, thanks for th...

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Thanks for the reply, Wayne. I'd wondered if it was a repro sourced during the time of its first restoration in the 60s. It has finger joints however. If it's not right, it might be time to look for a more accurate one, especially now that two of the joints are coming loose. Never heard of an eight ...

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The steering wheel on the Ghost is made of four pieces.

I’ve heard of one and two piece wheels, but not four, and the encyclopedia and judging guidelines don’t offer any details. Is there a story here, and is this accurate for a 1915 car?

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That tornado-damaged touring has cream or gray painted wheels. With the aftermarket fore doors it’s really gaining some personality.

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This makes much more sense, and helps answer the question. Now all the hypothesis about early green can be laid to rest. Thanks for doing the paint sampling. The car was painted at the factory, repainted once in its service life, and once again to green during its refurbishment. The in service repai...

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Here’s something I’d forgotten about. In late 1913, the Seattle assembly plant would rebuild older Fords for a charge. This cannot have lasted long but it indicates a kind of factory service that might have accommodated a request a special color, especially one formerly used by Ford. I don’t know if...

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One thought that might explain what you are finding outside of an in-service repaint, is an assembly plant painting of a body per request. Assembly plants received bodies in the white on occasion, painting and trimming them on site. This hypothesis would depend on the age of your car within calendar...

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It's much more likely your early 1913 car was repainted very early on, either by its original owner during normal upkeep, or to refresh the car prior to selling in the used car market. Both of these were very common. The old surfaces were often sanded before repainting, and the early paints will be ...

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At least five of the eleven or so pre-15 cars have electric headlights.

Most are inserts that fit into the gaslamp housings, while the decorated car has bullet style replacements. From these and other images, it looks like some forty percent of early brass Fords were electrically lighted.

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Allan’s exactly right. It’s a worn out 15-16 with a high radiator squirked onto it. Looks like a Holley G.

That 1912 touring is fantastic, super sharp. The accessory headlamps were not an inexpensive option.

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That light grey '12 touring sounds similar to this car, seen on Michigan Avenue in mid 1914. The "siren" on the passenger side is probably a magneto or battery powered horn. The '15-'16 rear fender on the '13 above it is pretty standard, an easy way to update your car and done in period. Lots of pho...

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Thanks for the input. Tracked it down to a stuck rubber-tip needle valve in the rebuilt NH carb. Cleaned up the G and put it back in. She started like a dream, barely two quarter cranks. Started just as nicely on mag with one quarter turn. Took her down the block but found the clutch grabbed when pu...

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Sorting out the Ghost is almost done and I'm looking forward to getting some driving in. Yet now we have a new thing rather than an old one. The Ghost will not start beyond a brief chuff or two as it burns up the primed gas mixture. I can't even get around the fender from the crank to the steering c...

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To further Mark's comments, the hood would almost certainly have been black, like the rest of the chassis, leaving blue only on the body and turtledeck. This "black hood, color body" style was established among many car makers in the 1915 era for all body styles. Ford adopted all black for open cars...

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A Case! Even a Pope Hartford!

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Spent the month sorting out little things, installed the new old commutator, flushed out bits of rag and hardened rubber from the radiator and block.

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I use a 12v Duracell under the back seat on my '15. It also needs regular charging but I'm not driving it every day - yet.

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For people with brass era cars, what kind of battery do you use, and what are the pros and cons based on your experience?

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It's an American Underslung. And a 1905-06 Pope Hartford behind it.

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Almost as big as the builder's model!

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Thats good to know. I saw a video of a Flanders 20 touring in Europe that was also a stronger machine than it looked. Glad you'll get lots of miles out of her. No sign of Vanadium steel in Flanders ads, even when they talk about the production process. It might be a safe assumption they did not, may...

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Mark, I remember when you bought that car. Congratulations on bringing her back to life and taking her on the road. Flanders cars looked somewhat flimsy compared to EMF and others. Is this true or is it sturdier than it looks? For 1912, yes, Flanders had black frames. Ford did too, pretty much a mar...

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Tom, those are excellent proportions. Very good eye.

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Just updated the chronology in my post above - cocoa mats from 1911 to mid 1917, wool felt to 1921 or 22, rubber afterwards, all for touring cars. I think tourabouts were considered "open" cars in that they had no doors, and the rear seat was thought of as just a larger rumble seat, so white rubber ...

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From the parts list for touring cars, there were four consecutive types of tonneau mats. Wool carpet 1909-10 Coca mat 1911-17 Wool felt 1917-21 Rubber Mat 1923 - An original 1915 from Illinois posted here some time ago might have a wool felt mat in the tonneau. It's in the picture. The 1917 Rip Van ...

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That 1909 tonneau carpet shows up as part 1606 in an early parts list, possibly 1908. It's listed on a separate page as "1606 Tonneau carpet" for 2.50.

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That’s exactly it. An early restoration, maybe forties? Look at the garage doors behind the car, and the shadow from a flash bulb.

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My car came to me through a friend. He wanted to pass on the knowledge of Model Ts. I’ll do the same and forward the experience.

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Historic preservation standards absolutely do provide for this type of treatment, which are necessarily applied to every form of preservation project, from art to architecture, or artifacts of every kind. The change discussed here is totally within those standards.

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Thats a fantastic car. It's rare to see all the original period modifications intact, or a car with a known history to boot. Your interest in preserving it is exactly right. It's good to see it in good hands. One suggestion - paint the wheels black. It will look a thousand times better, be much more...

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That's a beautiful car, Bob. You should have no problem at all. The Metz engine is very similar to a Model T, to the extent that some parts are supposedly interchangeable. Its transmission famously has about three moving parts, maybe less. You cannot find a simpler car or one that is more fun or eas...

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Her car has 1919 CA plates.

She’s modernized the car with a one-man top, electric side lights and a spotlight, probably all put on by the dealer. They had it striped too, just under the upper body molding. All in all a very good job.

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Tim, I've just had this exact same experience. I strongly recommend having it properly repaired. Wax and paste might be good for emergencies or even a tour season, but non-mechanical applications rarely offer solid long term solutions. It took fifteen minutes to remove the round tank from my car, an...

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Here's what I did: I first rinsed the tank out with water, letting it dry in the sun for several days. I then filled it with water and about 1 1/2 liters of Simple Green before rolling the round tank back and forth along a wooden deck for a couple times, turning it into a washing machine. It was the...

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So to summarize, It can be done, but according to experienced perspectives, results can vary from safe to fatal. Fuel to air must be below the combustable limit - the best means of displacing fumes is mechanical, either by air, exhaust or CO2. Extended soaking in an electrolysis tank is one approach...

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I have the same issue, leaky solder around the flange. I’ll clean it first, but don’t have any compressed air on hand. What I’d like to know is whether there is a way to do this safely without air - or an exhaust pipe. So far, this is the plan: Clean exterior with acetone, wash afterwards with simpl...

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No worries Rich. Always good to have a bit of timber about.

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It’s accidental. A friend of mine very kindly found the original font and typed it out for us. He’s not a Ford person so I’d rather not impose on him any further. Let’s consider it a way to tell between the two.

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Art imitating life- a good example of customer painted wheels

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Allan, I agree with you too. It works fine, it just seats out of alignment. I might just keep it as is - it's not too far out of alignment and everything else is in working order. At 108 years, probably adds a bit of character.

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The Ghost has slipped into a self-sorting phase, where it tells me what it wants and needs. Very practical.

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If anyone has an original brass sediment bulb in working order, and seats with the gas line facing forward, please let me know.

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Robert, If you want to do a good WWI ambulance, there are plenty of 1918 era chassis to start from. It would be worth your time to do so. But what if you want to use the car at hand? Well, instead of shoehorning a cowl and so on, why not evolve the project to suit what you have? Here's an army truck...

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Thanks Greg, that's reassuring to know!

Ken's car looks black inside as well. In fact it doesn't look grey at all unless you get it in the right light.

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Yes, it’s Ken’s car. Greg Jones sent this photo of the car with Ken in the driver’s seat. It was taken at the Hoquiam Loggers Playday parade around 1974.

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the Grey Ghost when she arrived

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The Grey Ghost took her first drive yesterday, after some years of storage. She ran well, started on mag, and is beginning several days of test driving and sorting out.

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Put all the suggestions to work and found the cause - a leaky intake manifold. Fixed it right up and she's back to starting on a quarter turn. Will try starting on mag next. Now to return to our previously scheduled program, sorting out the rest of the car. Thanks for the advice, support and ideas. ...

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Thanks for the suggestions! It's raining here today so I'll give them a try this week. Some observations- the spark plugs are dry when taken them out recently. I'll take them out again to test the spark and firing order. I haven't adjusted the timing brush at all, and it ran with the present setting...

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My 1915 is ready for the road but . . Suddenly her motor won't start. I've previously started it a few times while reassembling the car with no trouble, even on mag. She has fresh gas, rebuilt coils, a strong spark, clean plugs, fresh oil and turns over readily. I've gone through the Ford manual and...

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Body striping was probably gone by March 1913, based on photos.

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Stripe the body and wheels only, nothing else for 1913. Striping in French gray.

Body striping outlines the panels of the body. Wheel striping runs around the rims and in V darts on the spokes.

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I think that only the body and the wheels of the early 1913s were striped.

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Vince,

Striping on model T's was phased out between 1913 and 1914, first on the bodies, then the wheels.

After that, closed cars had a single pinstripe, at the belt line. This continued to the end of production.

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Tod, The 1909 runabouts that Kim posted appear to have a fine center stripe flanked by broader edge stripes around the brake drums. This looks pretty ordinary for the period. It's interesting that the 1909 runabouts do not have visible stripes on the body and fenders apart from the black trim. The l...

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Here's a photo of the new label.

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