This B racer for sale raised some questions with me..

Posts that have nothing to do with the Model T. You can post here or OT posts will be moved here.
Forum rules
If you need help logging in, or have question about how something works, use the Support forum located here Support Forum
Complete set of Forum Rules Forum Rules
User avatar

Topic author
Kaiser
Posts: 431
Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2019 5:32 am
First Name: Leo
Last Name: van Stirum
Location: Netherlands
Board Member Since: 2016

This B racer for sale raised some questions with me..

Post by Kaiser » Wed Apr 29, 2020 4:23 am

Found this for sale in Germany on PreWarCar.com, it reminded me of another similar racer discussed some time ago that was supposedly the last one remaining, well... there seems to be another one or is it the same car ? Is it the real deal or what? anyone have a clue about this one ?

Have a look here : https://www.prewarcar.com/292643-1929-f ... pital-gain
Attachments
292643-1569514206-4227507.jpg
292643-1569514206-4227507.jpg (52.18 KiB) Viewed 1088 times
When in trouble, do not fear, blame the second engineer ! 8-)
Leo van Stirum, Netherlands
'23 Huckster, '66 CJ5 daily driver

User avatar

Rich Eagle
Posts: 2657
Joined: Fri Jan 04, 2019 10:51 am
First Name: Richard
Last Name: Eagle
Location: Idaho Falls, ID
MTFCA Number: 1219
Contact:

Re: This B racer for sale raised some questions with me..

Post by Rich Eagle » Wed Apr 29, 2020 12:35 pm

There are lots of fun things going on there. Well done.
Thanks
Rich
When did I do that?


Wayne Sheldon
Posts: 1631
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 3:13 pm
First Name: Wayne
Last Name: Sheldon
Location: Grass Valley Califunny, USA
Board Member Since: 2005

Re: This B racer for sale raised some questions with me..

Post by Wayne Sheldon » Thu Apr 30, 2020 4:25 am

You may not like my opinion. I have doubts about its true authenticity. I don't think that Ford built such a car during the model A years, and anything they would have built would have likely been used by Ford. However, about that, I am NOT any authority in the model A years.
Several things on the car are not correct period for 1930. Air filter (?), carburetor, lamps, all appear later. Some of the parts used are not typical for racing cars of that era. And a "stock" engine head??! (I would expect a Riley overhead?) I would guess, like a couple of the T speedsters I "resurrected", it may have some pieces from some original era racing car. Integrated with general parts and not enough knowledge of how things were done in the era.
Very much a nice and probably very fun car! But a "concourse" car?

They say they have era photos and documentation. I would want to see all that before making any decisions.

I don't know the exchange rates, and am certainly not familiar with European collector car markets.But it seems a bit pricey (high?) to me for what it looks like. Maybe prices and values are that much higher there? (I know the import costs are quite high! And that does need to be reflected in the collector prices in Europe)
IF (that big "IF" again) there is good documentation and photos back to new? And it really was like that? That might change things a lot.

And I don't want to talk someone out of something they may really want. And if they can afford it and it is worth that to them, even more so (I don't want to talk someone out of it). But you did ask. And coupled with some of the words I read in the description (typical pie in the sky sales stuff!), and what I see in the pictures? I am not favorably impressed.
My apologies.

User avatar

Topic author
Kaiser
Posts: 431
Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2019 5:32 am
First Name: Leo
Last Name: van Stirum
Location: Netherlands
Board Member Since: 2016

Re: This B racer for sale raised some questions with me..

Post by Kaiser » Thu Apr 30, 2020 5:10 am

Hey Wayne, you don't have to apologise for anhonest opinion, it raised some questions with me too, and that is exactly why i posted this.
Last night it came to me, it reminded me of the French "Montier"Specials, he was the French Ford Importer (as far as i remember right, that is becoming an issue lately), and raced Fords extensively in among other places Le Mans.
One of his racers, a '23 T, was discussed here earlier,http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/50 ... 1432450044
Montier had several specials built through the years, T's, A's, B's and V8s
I don't know to what extent he built them in cooperation with the factory in the US, or if he had them built in the US or what, but several survive, a 23T is in the Museum of American Speed, another resurfaced in France, http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/59 ... 1479790447
I hope Chris Martin chimes in here as i think he is the expert on the Montier Fords.
When in trouble, do not fear, blame the second engineer ! 8-)
Leo van Stirum, Netherlands
'23 Huckster, '66 CJ5 daily driver


Wayne Sheldon
Posts: 1631
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 3:13 pm
First Name: Wayne
Last Name: Sheldon
Location: Grass Valley Califunny, USA
Board Member Since: 2005

Re: This B racer for sale raised some questions with me..

Post by Wayne Sheldon » Fri May 01, 2020 7:04 am

I know of the Montier model T racing cars, and have seen several era photos of them. I did not know they built any such cars in the model A or V8 era. Interesting. I would still question a Montier racer having a stock head engine? But it does bring some interest in the car's supposed history. If it can be verified.

User avatar

Mark Gregush
Posts: 2189
Joined: Sat Jan 05, 2019 1:57 pm
First Name: Mark
Last Name: Gregush
Location: Portland Or
Board Member Since: 1999

Re: This B racer for sale raised some questions with me..

Post by Mark Gregush » Sat May 02, 2020 2:38 pm

No comment other then the gauges look out of place as does the Ford emblem in the center of the steering wheel.
I know the voices aren't real but damn they have some good ideas! :shock:

1921 Huckster
1925 Cut down pickup


OilyBill
Posts: 163
Joined: Sat Apr 25, 2020 3:51 pm
First Name: William
Last Name: May
Location: Tucson, Arizona

Re: This B racer for sale raised some questions with me..

Post by OilyBill » Wed May 20, 2020 12:53 am

I guess it could be Ford Racing, if it was from a dealer in Europe.
I don't believe Ford did ANY racing in the U.S. Individuals raced Ford cars, but Ford had no racing team.
Ford special cars were normally built by Edsel Ford, and he did his usually magnificent styling job on them. They are generally conspicuous by their very nice looks and finish. To me, this looks like a late-built hot-rod project, and probably nothing to do with Ford.
But perhaps a Ford distributor or dealer in Europe DID make an attempt at racing. They couldn't have done much, not with THIS car, up against Bugattis and others of that class. I would be highly suspicious they would even try.
I don't believe ANY Ford would have been competitive in Europe after 1912 or so. Certainly not Model T's, and likely not Model A's
Until the later race efforts, of course!


Chris Martin 2
Posts: 9
Joined: Sat Nov 09, 2019 3:41 pm
First Name: CHRIS
Last Name: MARTIN
Location: Australia

Re: This B racer for sale raised some questions with me..

Post by Chris Martin 2 » Thu Aug 06, 2020 7:47 pm

Ok, first I can guarantee that is NOT a Montier.

I suspect what it is is a recent recreation made in Argentina.
There has long been a tradition down there for racing vintage cars with lightweight Speedster bodies - called 'baquets' - and there are several people in and around Buenos Aires still making them. Back in the 1920s Argentina was earning good money from the cattle and beef industry (my grandfather even left England as a 16 year old to work as a ‘gaucho’ for a couple of years) and American cars were best suited to the rugged roads so there are plenty of donor cars.

There is a dealer in Belgium who has been importing several of these into Europe for some time; here is a link to a recently sold Studebaker for example:
http://www.mecanicimport.com/cars/detai ... -vert-noir

As far as I know the cars they sold have always been honestly described. However, a subsequent owner may make up their own history and I can prove a recent example which surfaced in my ongoing Montier research - and this fake makes the claims of that one quoted above look quite innocent !
A couple of Argentinian Ford A racers (I have had contact with the builder) were sold to the Belgian dealer and they were sold on as nothing more than Model A Speedsters. A Belgian buyer of one of these, who was already well known in historic racing and rallying events in Europe, decided it would have more kudos if he gave it a false identity with period history and called it a Montier. But here is the big surprise; he even applied for, and received an FIVA passport, which is the official documentation needed to be eligible for any historic racing events. How he managed to fool them throws into doubt the expertise of the FIVA’s officials and therefore the authenticity of how many other ‘historic racers’ out there? I have had correspondence with the FIVA offices in Turin asking them to investigate how this car was granted documentation as I am writing a much bigger updated book about the Montier story and am trying to identify all survivors. I hope they can give me some answers as I doubt the FIVA would want their own expertise discredited in print.

Anyway, the papers were originally granted some years ago, and it was subsequently sold to another historic racer in Spain, who believed he had bought the real thing (and supported by the FIVA papers why wouldn’t he?) and despite me since providing him with all the evidence to the contrary, he is still trying to sell it on again as a genuine Montier-Ford.
The proof is simple, he even sent me a scan of the FIA papers which clearly shows the chassis number with the RPA prefix which denotes it was made in Ford’s factory in Argentina, and I sent him photos of the original Montier Model As as raced back in the day as well as photos of others from the same Argentinian source clearly showing exactly the differences.

But how about the even more obvious clue………the fake Montier, as with the car advertised above, is right-hand-drive !
Argentine cars back then were RHD, but any car from the so-called ‘Ford Racing’ whoever that was, whether American or European would have been based on a left-hand-drive chassis as were all of Charles Montier racers.
If curious somebody could enquire of the advertiser for the supporting papers; I would bet it has an RPA chassis number……..


Chris Martin 2
Posts: 9
Joined: Sat Nov 09, 2019 3:41 pm
First Name: CHRIS
Last Name: MARTIN
Location: Australia

Re: This B racer for sale raised some questions with me..

Post by Chris Martin 2 » Thu Aug 06, 2020 7:54 pm

The fake Montier-Ford in Spain is the silver and blue one, the yellow one was made by the same people in Argentina and also imported by the Belgian dealer and was last heard of for sale in France with no other claim other than just being a Model A Speedster made in Argentina. Both are also right-hand-drive.
Attachments
10.jpg
10.jpg (12.55 KiB) Viewed 146 times
15.jpg
08.JPG
07.JPG


Chris Martin 2
Posts: 9
Joined: Sat Nov 09, 2019 3:41 pm
First Name: CHRIS
Last Name: MARTIN
Location: Australia

Re: This B racer for sale raised some questions with me..

Post by Chris Martin 2 » Thu Aug 06, 2020 7:59 pm

And to compare, a few of the original Model A based Montier racers from the 1930 and 1931 European Grand Prix season. These had a strange look as Montier lowered the center section of the chassis between the axles to lower the c of g and moved the radiator forward to clear the front axle. Not the prettiest vintage Ford but quite effective in their day.
Attachments
28.JPG
27.JPG
21.jpg


Chris Martin 2
Posts: 9
Joined: Sat Nov 09, 2019 3:41 pm
First Name: CHRIS
Last Name: MARTIN
Location: Australia

Re: This B racer for sale raised some questions with me..

Post by Chris Martin 2 » Thu Aug 06, 2020 8:16 pm

OilyBill wrote:
Wed May 20, 2020 12:53 am
............ perhaps a Ford distributor or dealer in Europe DID make an attempt at racing. They couldn't have done much, not with THIS car, up against Bugattis and others of that class. I would be highly suspicious they would even try.
I don't believe ANY Ford would have been competitive in Europe after 1912 or so. Certainly not Model T's, and likely not Model A's
Until the later race efforts, of course!
Charles Montier had quite a lot of success between 1921 and 1928 with his increasingly modified Model T based racers. He raced mainly in France and Belgium where circuit racing, road racing and hillclimbs were popular with both the top professional teams and many wealthy amateurs. There were events nearly every week back then and he achieved many class wins.
He even occasionally raced in Spain and even traveled as far as Algeria in north Africa which was then a French colony.
The Model As followed but were by now outclassed in top level Grand Prix events although still used for hillclimbs.
The photo below shows Charles and Ferdinand Montier in their Model As starting the 1931 Belgian Grand Prix from right at the back behind Bugattis, Alfas and a lone Mercedes.
Later in '33 frustrated by waiting for a supply of Ford's new V8 he even built a racer with two Model A engines back to back (so, a Ford straight eight ?) second photo.
Attachments
Spa start 1931 1.jpg
1933 montier ford.jpg

User avatar

Topic author
Kaiser
Posts: 431
Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2019 5:32 am
First Name: Leo
Last Name: van Stirum
Location: Netherlands
Board Member Since: 2016

Re: This B racer for sale raised some questions with me..

Post by Kaiser » Sun Aug 09, 2020 12:13 pm

Thanks a bunch Chris, although id does not clear up what it is, it sure does clear up what it isn't !
I was hoping you'd chime in for your expertise on these cars, you must have seen quite a few fakes and lookalikes !
Not that i don't like people like the Argentinians building cars to their liking, they build some fantastic cars, but a car should be sold with its proper history, selling fakes is a big discredit to the classic car hobby and market.
Again thanks for chiming in , looking forward to your new updated book !
When in trouble, do not fear, blame the second engineer ! 8-)
Leo van Stirum, Netherlands
'23 Huckster, '66 CJ5 daily driver

Post Reply Previous topicNext topic