remove the transmission

[andy2794]

I have a 1916 Model T and I would need to remove the transmission so I can clean it, it will not go into natural when the hand brake is straight up. I have already replaced the bad transmission bands and adjusted them. I can find help on how to tear apart the transmission but cannot find anything on how to remove it. I have already removed the bolts from the shackles and moved the rear end out of the way. Please advise.

[George House]

Andy, That engine/transmission needs to be taken out of the frame for you to remove the transmission. However, if you only want to “clean” the transmission, you probably don’t need to do this. First of all, reinstall the rear end. Then consider you only need to find a true neutral instead of ‘cleaning’ your tranny. Theres info in the Model T Service Manual that instructs you on how to do this and I believe Michael Pawelek posted an illustration of those instructions recently on this Forum.

[Scott_Conger]

Andy, removing the transmission is nearly a full engine teardown. You can remove the rear end, but the fact is, the engine must come out of the frame and extensive work is involved.

You posted on another thread that you can start the car on jackstands and once warm, the car works just fine.

To that, I say "Welcome to "T" ownership". In cold weather, that usually comes with the territory.

You were given a bunch of suggestions with how to cope with this situation (including adjusting for neutral) and I cannot believe you exhausted all of those suggestions in the short time which has transpired.

You are now delving into an abyss with clearly little to no knowledge of what you're getting into, or why. Please, for your sake, find and team up with a competent "T" mechanic locally before you get in so deep you regret it. There is no amount of cleaning that you can do which will exceed the efficacy of doing one or more things suggested on your first thread.

Rethink your approach to this.

[andy2794]

George, I can start and operate the T if I move the hand brake completely forward and jack up the rear end. Of course the rear end turns as I am cranking. If I let it idle for a while, about 5 minutes, I can let it down and it will sit there but you can still tell it is under a little load sitting on the ground. Please advise.

[speedytinc]

I have a 1916 Model T and I would need to remove the transmission so I can clean it, it will not go into natural when the hand brake is straight up. I have already replaced the bad transmission bands and adjusted them. I can find help on how to tear apart the transmission but cannot find anything on how to remove it. I have already removed the bolts from the shackles and moved the rear end out of the way. Please advise.

Clean it? Who gave you this idea?
Do you have the T1 manual? Have you studied it in regards to your issue? Have you checked the linkage settings the book shows?
Your questions tell me NO. STOP. Do your homework.

[John kuehn]

Andy I don’t know if your new to the Model T world but reading up on Model T’s is a MUST for new owners!
Get the Model T Ford service manual and the engine and transmission repair manuals that are available from the MTFCA website. All aspects of repairing T’s can be found there.

As others have stated the T engine is one unit. The entire engine has to be removed from the car and the Transmission needs to be removed to rebuild it. There are a few things you can do without doing that but it’s minimal. There are also T videos on YouTube that are helpful too.

READ and reread the manuals to see what’s what. Remember your working on 100 year old + technology and it’s not like today’s vehicles! The manuals can teach you WHAT NOT TO DO and can keep you from doing the wrong thing!

Good luck!

[speedytinc]

George, I can start and operate the T if I move the hand brake completely forward and jack up the rear end. Of course the rear end turns as I am cranking. If I let it idle for a while, about 5 minutes, I can let it down and it will sit there but you can still tell it is under a little load sitting on the ground. Please advise.

You have a stickey clutch pack, but, common in winter as frost. Some would suggest a very light oil. Running with some kerosene will probably wash out the stickey oil. When you park the car leave the parking brake off to minimize the oil locking of the clutch disks. Let the oil/engine get to running temps. The drag should mostly go away. Unless you replace the original clutch disks with a th400 modern disk set, you will have some disk drag.

[jwrightjr]

I am in the process of reassembling my first transmission teardown (a spare I acquired to learn how to do it) and I have learned a bunch! Spent a lot of time reading and attending classes at YouTube U. One thing I did notice that was mentioned in a few different places is the stock clutch pack digging into and making grooves in the "dogs" on the clutch basket. The ridges will make it difficult to get a free neutral as it will grab the plates and stop them from separating. The transmission on my bench definitely has this issue and I could see how the cold weather would amplify it. I dressed up the grooves in the basket with a file and reinstalled the original clutch. Just as everyone has said this is an engine out inspection or repair. Most on this site are far more experienced than me but I thought I would share my experience since I just did it today! I didn't fully understand what was going on in the transmission no matter how much I read and I was fortunate to acquire a couple spares to play with. If you can I would recommend getting a spare, tear it down, and you will learn a bunch then you will have one to swap out if you truly do have an issue. I am kind of a prepper and like to have 1 or 2 or 13 redundant parts in case I need them someday

[Norman Kling]

Before you take anything apart, see the diagram attached for adjusting for a free neutral. Also remember that on a Model T, you have a multiple disk clutch and a free neutral is not completely free, but should be able to push the car without the engine turning or crank the engine without the car moving. Other factors include the weather and what kind of oil you use in the engine/transmission. The best for winter weather is the lower sae such as 10W 20. In cold weather the single weight oils get thicker with low temperatures. Also if you park with the hand brake forward and then pull back to start the car or use neutral, you will have less oil between the disks and you will have a freer neutral.
Wear factors which could cause a problem. inside of the brake drum has the lugs to hold the disks. If they are worn excessively, the disks will stick and you won't get a good neutral. And if the low or reverse bands are too tight, you will not get a good neutral.
see the chart attached and try adjusting first, before you take anything apart. Sometimes the neutral is when the break lever is just a bit forward of straight up. The cam on the parking brake cross shaft must be under the bolt to get your neutral. and if you pull the lever too far back it will apply the brake. The transmission will still be in neutral but the car will not roll.
Norm
[attachment=0]Free Neutral.jpg

[andy2794]

1st thank you for all the info so far. I rebolted the rear end, drained the engine oil. Let me give you a little more info. When I bought my T the owner jacked up the rear and had to crank a while but it started. I knew nothing about a T but what he told me, here is what he said. He said someone put some STP in the crankcase and gummed up the transmission clutches and that is why we have to jack it up. I bought it in July so it was not cold. He bought it with the intentions of restoring it but did nothing to it except let it rust. I took it home and drained the oil, it was like tar, very thick. I put straight 30 weight ND oil in expecting that to fix the jacking up problem. Then I was told the problem was the transmission bands. I ordered the 3 cloth bands but only the center one was wore out, so i changed it and put the hog head back on. I tried the hand brake in several positions, did not solve my problem. Having said all that, the oil drain plug is still out. Should I fill the oil pan with Kerosene and let it soak? If so how long?
I bought a gallon of 5-20 synthetic oil and plan to use it for my oil. What I plan to do next is put the hog head back on and adjust the hand brake according to the diagram sent me in this thread. Please advise.

[TXGOAT2]

Make sure the adjustments are correct, then put the 5W20 in it and run it a while. I would not wash it out with anything. Run it a couple of hundred miles, preferabley for 10 miles or more per trip, then change the oil again. If the oil in the car was thick, that is probably 85% of your problem. The linkage adjustments are critical, and must be done correctly. MODEL Ts DO NOT LIKE THICK OIL!!!

[Norman Kling]

In your case, you might get lucky. Put the hogs head back on and put the plug in and fill up with your 5/20 oil. Then jack up the rear wheels and start your car. Put chock blocks front and back of the front wheels. Then put the parking brake lever forward and with the engine running depress the low pedal then the brake pedal then the reverse pedal. If you don't kill the engine try pulling on the parking brake all the way back. If you still don't kill the engine, you will have unstuck the clutch and working the pedals should have caused the oil to go between the disks and wash out the old oil. If it is unstuck drive it around for a few miles and then change the oil again. Should be OK.
Norm