later coils in 13 box

[RichJ]

I'd like to use the common coils in a original 13 wood coil box , I know others have done this upgrade ,
appreciate all input .

[Les Schubert]

Some options;
1. Make new boxes for conventional coils that fit the early style coil box. I made a set 20 some years ago!
2. Close the points on the early style coils and install a “master vibrator”. This would be the era correct solution!
3. Install a electronic timer (E or I timer)
4. I installed a “customized” Trufire in my 13 T 20 years ago. Has worked great.
Just some suggestions.

[got10carz]

I have a 13 coilbox full of popsicle sticks. Makes newer coils fit.

[Mark Gregush]

A lot depends on WHAT coil box you are working with, as in type and brand. 1913 there wasn't just a one size fits all coil box like later cars. Metal? Wood, what brand? Depending on the brand, the terminals might not even line up with the contacts.

[Loftfield]

I use later coils in my 1912. I cut shims from thin plywood and some very smooth composite board. The shims are the size of the coils (no popsicle sticks to slide around), inserted between the coils and behind the coils. The trick is be sure that the shims are not too tight (the coils should slide in and out easily) or the pressure will eventually cause the corners of the coil box to spread open, corner finger joints easily reglued. I then use a piece of spongy rubber tubing glued into the top to hold the coils down. Several years and many miles later all is well with this system. Newer coils are much easier to obtain, and MUCH easier to keep adjusted. Coil problems were the number one complaint to Ford until K-W came along. OK, what I do isn't "original", but unless you take the lid off the coil box nobody sees. If you are going for that AACA 400 point car this approach might not be best. If you want to drive your T down the road a lot then it works just fine.

[RichJ]

Thanks to all for the informative replays ,I have a box that is too narrow to accommodate the newer coils and I don't have the original coils,
has anyone re-configured the KW coils to fit in the smaller box ?
I' d be interested in buying the early coils -if anyone has any they would part with ; then I could do as Les suggested and use master vibrator or E timer.

[speedytinc]

Thanks to all for the informative replays ,I have a box that is too narrow to accommodate the newer coils and I don't have the original coils,
has anyone re-configured the KW coils to fit in the smaller box ?
I' d be interested in buying the early coils -if anyone has any they would part with ; then I could do as Les suggested and use master vibrator or E timer.

A fellow in the club has the same issue. His has plastic kw coils cut up.(narrowed) with copper strips soldered to match the boxes contact points. Looks like quite a mess, but works. Making a new, proper sized box seems to be the cleanest answer. Recent post showed a real clean job.

[Original Smith]

I like original KW 1913 style coils. They are more reliable than the coils made in the 1920's. They aren't impossible to find either. You just have to go out and find them!

[Ron Patterson]

Rich
The solution to this problem depends upon if you really have a first half of 1913 KW coil box or something else?
The original KW coils used the first half 1913 KW wood boxbox were larger (see photo) than later standard sized KW coils.
As Steve (got10carz) indicated you have to make shims to go between the coils (5 shims) AND (4) in the back (rear of car) of each coil and the inside of the coilbox to take up the extgra space left by using the smaller coils in the larger coil coilbox. You will alos have to solder some sheet brass pieces to the later coils to make up for the slightly different coil contact spacing of the 1913 KW larger coils.
With some careful measureing and patience making the shims this solution works very well.
If, on the other hand, you have a wood coilbox (not KW) from another year car the solution is somewhat different.
If you can post a photo of you coilbox we can tell exactly soo exactly you have.
Ron Patterson

[Mark Gregush]

Sounds like the OP is working with a Heinze box.

[TWrenn]

Sounds like the OP is working with a Heinze box. The 1914 up coils would also be a little too tall, making it hard to install the lid.

Exactly what I was thinking. I have Heinze coils in my '13 and for all the dissing of these occasionally, I love mine! They run a lot quieter than the KW's for one thing, but you can still hear them just enough to get your "buzz on"!!

[TRDxB2]

What is a wood 13 coil box? Is it original to the year or some other change made by an owner sometime in the past. Pictures help erase some ambiguity and provide a more accurate solution. So.... I found this solution to a 1913 with an original KW coil box. Nor sure what cautions need to be taken in soldering strips without unsoldering internal connections
by troutjohn » Tue Apr 09, 2019 6:02 pm https://mtfca.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?t=2756
Daren, here is another option to consider. I have a 1913 with an original KW coil box. I use later more modern coils with brass strips soldered to the contacts and wood spacers in the coils box. See 2 pictures: 1) the coils in the box with spacers. 2) 3 coils: later one, 1913 one with lower contacts, and a later coils with the soldered strips.

[Mark Gregush]

I have not read anything from that indicates he has a KW box, just asking about KW coils. There were at least 4 different size coils and boxes used in 1913. Kingston, Heinze, KW and Ford. I read his question to mean, he is going to use the newer style coils made by KW. He could also have a Kingston or even Ford depending on when the car was made.
To move forward, please let us know what coil box you are asking about.
Thanks

[TRDxB2]

I have not read anything from that indicates he has a KW box, just asking about KW coils. There were at least 4 different size coils and boxes used in 1913. Kingston, Heinze, KW and Ford. I read his question to mean, he is going to use the newer style coils made by KW. He could also have a Kingston or even Ford depending on when the car was made.
To move forward, please let us know what coil box you are asking about.
Thanks

I'm with you on what coil box does the owner have. I started my response above with "Post by TRDxB2 » Wed Jan 05, 2022 10:13 am
What is a wood 13 coil box? Is it original to the year or some other change made by an owner sometime in the past. Pictures help erase some ambiguity and provide a more accurate solution." I only added the KW solution as it appeared that was one used for that period.
As they say: "A picture is worth a thousand words". It is what it is doesn't mean it is what it was!

[Quickm007]

Rich
The solution to this problem depends upon if you really have a first half of 1913 KW coil box or something else?
The original KW coils used the first half 1913 KW wood boxbox were larger (see photo) than later standard sized KW coils.
As Steve (got10carz) indicated you have to make shims to go between the coils (5 shims) AND (4) in the back (rear of car) of each coil and the inside of the coilbox to take up the extgra space left by using the smaller coils in the larger coil coilbox. You will alos have to solder some sheet brass pieces to the later coils to make up for the slightly different coil contact spacing of the 1913 KW larger coils.
With some careful measureing and patience making the shims this solution works very well.
If, on the other hand, you have a wood coilbox (not KW) from another year car the solution is somewhat different.
If you can post a photo of you coilbox we can tell exactly soo exactly you have.
Ron Patterson

Hi Ron,
What is your suggestion for using later coils with this coil box as well?

[Quickm007]

Rich
The solution to this problem depends upon if you really have a first half of 1913 KW coil box or something else?
The original KW coils used the first half 1913 KW wood boxbox were larger (see photo) than later standard sized KW coils.
As Steve (got10carz) indicated you have to make shims to go between the coils (5 shims) AND (4) in the back (rear of car) of each coil and the inside of the coilbox to take up the extgra space left by using the smaller coils in the larger coil coilbox. You will alos have to solder some sheet brass pieces to the later coils to make up for the slightly different coil contact spacing of the 1913 KW larger coils.
With some careful measureing and patience making the shims this solution works very well.
If, on the other hand, you have a wood coilbox (not KW) from another year car the solution is somewhat different.
If you can post a photo of you coilbox we can tell exactly soo exactly you have.
Ron Patterson

Hi Ron,
What is your suggestion for using later coils with this coil box as well?
coils 1.JPGcoils 2.JPGcoils 3.JPGcoils 4.JPGcoils 5.JPG

[Quickm007]

Rich
The solution to this problem depends upon if you really have a first half of 1913 KW coil box or something else?
The original KW coils used the first half 1913 KW wood boxbox were larger (see photo) than later standard sized KW coils.
As Steve (got10carz) indicated you have to make shims to go between the coils (5 shims) AND (4) in the back (rear of car) of each coil and the inside of the coilbox to take up the extgra space left by using the smaller coils in the larger coil coilbox. You will alos have to solder some sheet brass pieces to the later coils to make up for the slightly different coil contact spacing of the 1913 KW larger coils.
With some careful measureing and patience making the shims this solution works very well.
If, on the other hand, you have a wood coilbox (not KW) from another year car the solution is somewhat different.
If you can post a photo of you coilbox we can tell exactly soo exactly you have.
Ron Patterson

Hi Ron,
What is your suggestion for using later coils with this coil box as well?
coils 1.JPGcoils 2.JPGcoils 3.JPGcoils 4.JPGcoils 5.JPG

coils 6.JPGcoils 8.JPGcoils 9.JPGcoils 11.JPG

[RichJ]

Here are a couple of pictures for clarification. The second picture is the underside of the lid.

[RichJ]

One more picture.

[Ray Syverson]

Thanks to all for the informative replays ,I have a box that is too narrow to accommodate the newer coils and I don't have the original coils,
has anyone re-configured the KW coils to fit in the smaller box ?
I' d be interested in buying the early coils -if anyone has any they would part with ; then I could do as Les suggested and use master vibrator or E timer.

Rich wrote that his coil box is too narrow to accept the newer coils, so he will not be able to just shim them and add tabs on the contacts.

[Ron Patterson]

My response to what I understood the original posters query was carefully crafted to be about the wood KW coilbox with the early KW coils used in the firt half of 1913.
Frank B. has helped that with better photos of the exact situation I described.
I would only add that soldering tabs to the coilbox contacts of later coils to line up with cntacts in earlier coilboxes is simple to do, is reliable and commonly done in these situations.
You will many other people seeking solutions because ignition coils in pre 1913 Model T's was cluttered with many types of cois/coilboxes were frantically being tried by Ford to to address the fundamental problems with seperate Trembler coil per cylinder inherent in multi-cylinder cars.
KW and others made a boatload of money selling Master Vibrator coils. KW made a bigger bundle of money by convincing Ford to adopt their Williams designed ignition that was qquickly standardised upon and used from 1913 to the end of Moel T production. Details can be found in the attached article.

The Model T Ignition Coil - Part 2.pdf

(2.46 MiB) Downloaded 69 times

Ron Patterson

[RichJ]

Would 3 heinze coils and a master coil give me a reliable setup?

[RichJ]

I meant master vibrator .

[KWTownsend]

I modified KW coils to fit into an original Heinze coil box.

They need to be reduced in size (front to back) by 1/4"
I did that by cutting the finger joints on the top and bottom deeper by 1/4" and re-sizing the other corners and joints accordingly.
Then extension for the contacts, etc...

It was very labor intensive and time consuming, but they work well.

Mario, it looks like you have some special made coils for your Kingston box.
If you are having issues with them, it would be best to start a new thread.

: ^ )

[Quickm007]

Hi for sure, I do not want to highjack this thread. I was just asking because it was really similar of my situation but with all input I saw on this actual thread I have an idea what to do.

[Mark Gregush]

Keith, I have been going through some ideas to fix Clays Heinze coils. I have 4 Heinze coils, but as it is, they are wrong for his 12. The idea of resizing the coils might be the way to go, and would be using more readily availed parts. I am still toying with using the later windings with the original points, don't know yet if I will pursue that route as the primary is a lot taller and would require some changes to the lid as well height of coil, adding about 3/16-1/4" to the height of the Heinze coils.

[R.V.Anderson]

FWIW, which may be nothing, I rebuild, restore, and reproduce all styles of Heinze coils used on Fords and other early cars, 1906-1914. Exact replacement parts are readily available and I have many satisfied customers. The issue is my getting back out to the shop, if and when this knee/leg will allow it.

[AndreFordT]

First best wishes for the New Year.

I am dealing with the same problem: fitting later coils in a 1913 K&W wooden coilbox.
In the past I rebuilded a few Heinze coils with the later interior parts (see photos).
Here, to make it look right, I will build new boxes that fit right in the K&W coilbox.
It will be cleaner and better looking than make shims and adapting later coils to the box. (Will post photos as soon as it is done.)

Good luck
Andre
Belgium

[AndreFordT]

And here the coilbox.