T #2

[TRDxB2]

I just don't understand why the confusion about a cars' year. We all know that a car's "year" is normally being referred to by its "Model Year" and has been for over a Century now and that is what DMV's and Insurance Companies care about. However, when in conversation with a car collector "Model Year" is secondary to "Build DATE". Protagonist Collectors strive for the earliest, first one, rarest, etc. for a variety of reasons (I'll let it itgo at that). One wonders why collectors spend thousands of dollars to own a Trailer Queen only to get a $10 trophy - must be their competitive spirit.
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The value of any collectable is based on its provenance (a record of ownership, used as a guide to authenticity or quality; not storytelling). So if there are pictures of #2 (#220 too) as it was first acquired, documentation on how it was restored and with what (pictures too), would the sold price be somewhat justified? More importantly what provenance do you have on your own vehicles, let alone to justify a Capital Loss on your Tax return when you sell it? The Holy Grail can never be found and accepted unless it preforms several miracles - and even then there will be skeptics.

[Retro54]

FYI, there are some decent photos of #2 from the Bonhams auction on the "Model T Ford Club of Facebook" page. They are not mine, so I didn't want to grab and share, but thought those who are interested... would be interested. Maybe others got good photos too??? I've been enjoying this thread and all of the opinions expressed.

Andy

[Jem]

I have been watching this saga with horrified fascination, it is both hilarious and tragic. If Don Hess did buy a substantially complete #2 car, any value it had has been destroyed by the 'restoration' it has suffered (yes, suffered is the word). Imagine what an important exhibit it would be if he had simply preserved it as found - a gem for researchers, checking the thickness of the original paint, analysing the pigments, checking the leather used in the upholstery etc. Instead we have what Rob rightly described above as a clone, a reproduction, not an original. Ans now it's been sold for silly money, it is no longer a motor car, it is a piece of jewellery to be kept in a vault as in investment.

I will happily retract that last sentence if the new owner takes it out on tour and puts a couple of hundred miles on it. Cars were made to be driven.

[ModelT46]

Who putchased the "#2"? Where will it be now located?

[bcbug68]

It is a very beautiful car! But I see it is very difficult to see pictures of the car before restoration and to know what is original or not.
Nobody has a list of the early 2 levers cars with pictures and information on it? Or maybe it is not possible to publish it here to respect the owner’s ?
My 489 is not complete and not perfect but I told what is orignal or not.

[Wayne Sheldon]

Brice C, I understand that there is a list, it however is closely guarded due to several owners not wanting their information let out. The list has been maintained somewhat, but a couple of the cars have managed to drop out of sight, having been sold and the new ownership not being divulged.

As I recall, I heard/read that you were trying to sell yours last year? Did you sell it? Such a rare thing to have. I don't recall what the count was? But not very many of those first less-than-a-thousand-built two lever model T Fords left! And as I recall, less than half of the "survivors" were anywhere near complete or intact when found. A couple on the list were little more than only the motor.

[flatbroke3]

there are 35 serial numbers on the list of two levers, I know of one that is not on the list, so make that 36 known serial numbers. some are just engines and some are cars

[Steve Jelf]

...what provenance do you have on your own vehicles...

I think for nearly all Model T's the answer is zero. How many of these cars come with a complete history going back to their original purchase? 1%? 2%? Certainly mighty few.

[pete eastwood]

As far as provenance, model T #714 that my family once owned has a complete know history.
A. Lantz from Colton Calif was the first owner.
My dad was the third owner.
Los Angeles County Museum, that now owns the car is the 6th owner.

[bcbug68]

Brice C, I understand that there is a list, it however is closely guarded due to several owners not wanting their information let out. The list has been maintained somewhat, but a couple of the cars have managed to drop out of sight, having been sold and the new ownership not being divulged.

As I recall, I heard/read that you were trying to sell yours last year? Did you sell it? Such a rare thing to have. I don't recall what the count was? But not very many of those first less-than-a-thousand-built two lever model T Fords left! And as I recall, less than half of the "survivors" were anywhere near complete or intact when found. A couple on the list were little more than only the motor.

Ok. It was what I thought… some people doesn’t want to tell the truth just for money I think.
Yes I would like to sell mine, I did not yet succeeded. I only have one offer but not a good deal. I have to change of project that is why I would like to sell it.

[bcbug68]

there are 35 serial numbers on the list of two levers, I know of one that is not on the list, so make that 36 known serial numbers. some are just engines and some are cars

I thought it was about 10 survivors cars. Thank you for your post.

[TRDxB2]

As far as provenance, model T #714 that my family once owned has a complete know history.
A. Lantz from Colton Calif was the first owner.
My dad was the third owner.
Los Angeles County Museum, that now owns the car is the 6th owner.

Provenance needs to be supported be documents : pictures of people with a time reference in the photo. Paper documents etc. "Known" = Noah an the flood if you understand what I am getting at.
Hope these photo's are in a diary with the car - otherwise it will be another "undocumented" Model T

[pete eastwood]

The car is listed in the 1909 California DMV records as being owned by A. Lantz, Colton Calif. which is what the second owner told my dad .
The second owner owned a Ford dealership " Banta & Smith" in Colton & took the car in on trade in 1918.
He kept the car at the dealership. When he retired he moved the car to Pasadena, storing it at his brother in laws plumbing shop.
That is where my dad found it.