Valve timing

BernhardBK · Post by **BernhardBK** » Sat Oct 29, 2022 5:36 pm

I had to grind the valve seats of my 1923 Roadster. Afterwards I set the valves by piston position (KR Wilson tool). I have got adjustable lifters.
I checked the settings with Wilson‘s tool several times, everything seemed to by alright.
To be on the save side, I double-checked my results by valve setting by lash.
First problem was that I could not find the typical valve overlap, where inlet valve opens and before exhaust valve closes.
When Exhaust valves were fully closed, inlet valves did not start to open.
Therefore I measure the timing for every opposite cylinder twice. First when exhaust valve was fully closed and second when inlet started to open.
Cly 1 exh 0.018 inl 0,028 / exh 0.016 inl 0,26
Cly 2 exh 0.018 inl 0,026 / exh 0.018 inl 0,28
Cly 3 exh 0.016 inl 0.024 / exh 0.016 inl 0.028
Cly 4 exh 0.016 inl 0.033 / exh 0.018 inl 0.03

They should exh 0.012 inl. 0,010.

My measurements are much too much, and inlet clearance is higher than exhausted….strange.

I appreciate any recommendations what I should do.

Thanks a lot
Bernd Klingels
Kirchberg/Germany

Post by **Moxie26** » Sat Oct 29, 2022 5:56 pm

Setting valves by piston position will accurately Time each valve in the Piston stroke to open or close equally, thus giving a smoother running engine with a bit more power. Now setting each valve by the same gap for intake or the same gap for exhaust will override the smoothness and efficiency of the engine..... Comparing piston position Valve gap against feeler gauge clearance will not be the same. I set my valves with piston position and the engine has run a lot better.

Kerry · Post by **Kerry** » Sat Oct 29, 2022 6:06 pm

Basically, setting by piston position was for worn cam shafts, rechecking the lash by feeler gauge and the variables are telling you that the cam is worn.

JohnH · Post by **JohnH** » Sat Oct 29, 2022 6:10 pm

The whole point of setting by piston position is to compensate for wear or irregularities in the camshaft. So, unless everything was newly machined, I would be surprised if the clearances were all the same.
Mine are all over the place, and valves with the higher clearances are noisier. But, the proof is in how well it runs after setting the timing this way.

Scott_Conger · Post by **Scott_Conger** » Sat Oct 29, 2022 6:11 pm

Setting valves by piston position will accurately Time each valve in the Piston stroke to open or close equally

IF it is a stock FORD cam and it is worn out.

We don't know WHAT cam is in the car nor its condition. Adjusting any decent cam that is in any kind of good condition will lead to a noisy valve train and deteriorated performance

Who in their right mind would want to de-tune a cam to a fixed 1920 value (KRW spec based on stock FORD)
when that modern cam had improved lift and lap? The above advice seems to suggest just that. Setting a STIPE cam (for instance) to piston position a la KRW would end up with very noisy and poor performance as previously mentioned.

Again, It is a great process that works on WORN ORIGINAL cams...and we DO NOT know the condition of the subject cam. I've used it in that case, and it does improve performance...as for my STIPE, I'll set it to their recommended clearances, thank you.

Post by **Moxie26** » Sat Oct 29, 2022 7:06 pm

Scott and Pat ..... sorry to upset you but the KR Wilson piston position tool to set the opening and closing timing on the valves in reference to the piston position for intakes / or exhausts does give the engine the best running performance no matter what cam is in the engine.. original Ford, Stipe, Chaffin, or XYZ. .... IT'S CALLED TIMING.

Post by **Art M** » Sat Oct 29, 2022 7:22 pm

My opinion
Feeler gage. More power
Piston position more smoothness
My opinion. What do I know. Not much according to many

Art Mirtes

Post by **TXGOAT2** » Sat Oct 29, 2022 7:33 pm

A modern cam in good condition ought not need each valve timed to each piston. An original cam, or any cam with heavy wear or an inaccurate regrind might benefit from timing each valve. In that case, timing each valve opening point to the piston position would regularize the timing of when each valve opened relative to the piston, but it would not restore lost original lift and probably would not restore original duration or cam profile. I'd think that at some point, as wear progressed, you'd wind up with well-timed valve openings, with clearances all over the map, from too tight to too loose, and likely have excess noise and abnormally rapid wear and perhaps some valves that would overheat due to too little clearance for some operating conditions.

Post by **TXGOAT2** » Sat Oct 29, 2022 7:35 pm

A feeler gauge can give poor results if the cam is not accurately made and in good condition.

Post by **Moxie26** » Sat Oct 29, 2022 8:37 pm

Moxie26 wrote: ↑
Sat Oct 29, 2022 7:06 pm
Scott and Pat ..... sorry to upset you but the KR Wilson piston position tool to set the opening and closing timing on the valves in reference to the piston position for intakes / or exhausts does give the engine the best running performance no matter what cam is in the engine.. original Ford, Stipe, Chaffin, or XYZ. .... IT'S CALLED TIMING.

Post by **TXGOAT2** » Sat Oct 29, 2022 8:47 pm

Use a rubber camshaft and let each cylinder make up its own mind. Personally, I'd rather have an accurately made camshaft in good condition. It streamlines adjusting valve clearance and gives the most accurate overall valve action that is obtainable on a practical basis.

Post by **TXGOAT2** » Sat Oct 29, 2022 8:54 pm

If you really want to split hairs on valve/piston timing, you need a well-made, uniform camshaft that won't flex or wind-up and accurately fitted cam bearings, and you also need a torsionally-stiff crankshaft and well-fitted crankshaft and wrist pin bearings. A well functioning cooling system and oiling system is also needed to minimize irregular expansion of engine parts under various operating conditions.

Scott_Conger · Post by **Scott_Conger** » Sat Oct 29, 2022 9:12 pm

I'm not upset...just amazed at some of the things folks sometimes say with absolute certainty which are patently false. I'm not immune to it and in fact dropped a real clanger the other day...I was called out on it and I publicly apologized for passing on bad info when I clearly should have known better.

How anyone would believe that a modern cam with extra lift, and lap which is different than an original FORD cam can be set to the same opening/closing versus piston position and still get what you paid for and manage to do it without creating .030" lifter gaps and a totally detuned engine is a mystery to me. If that makes an engine run better than using the manufacturer's designed gap (usually around .010), well I think we have different definitions of "better". Setting lift to piston position on a worn-out, original cam WILL improve performance. Marginally. You will also have to invest in hearing protection, before the clatter of grossly large valve/lifter clearances induce tinnitus.

So, all the cam design that has been put into Chaffin cams with advance built-in for more torque, all the cam design that has been put into Stipe cams of all stripes, and others, ALL benefit from setting opening/closing based on 1920 KRW piston position method. That's patently ridiculous. Install a 7 1/2 degree cam gear and see how that piston position thing works out...

If a guy was to tell me that he could make an NH carb perform as well as a Stromberg carb, I'd say he doesn't know much about rebuilding Strombergs; if a guy says to set valve/lifter clearance on a brand new, advanced Chaffins cam to the engine's piston position using 1920 KRW values, and he will improve performance, well, I'd say he

Now, if you have a Stipe cam, have it's lap/lead chart in front of you, install a degree wheel, and find that their grind equipment was off on one lobe by 1 degree, and you dialed in/out the lifter by .002" or so to compensate, then I say "good for you". You now have the perfect "T" engine and squeezed an extra 1/100 HP out of it. If this is what you're stating, and I've misunderstood, please accept my apology. I will achieve the same performance increase by keeping my tires at the correct pressure and not have to fiddle with a degree wheel.

Your stated position is that regardless of cam or cam design, whether new or worn, dialing in valve events identically, to piston position with a KRW gauge without regard to lap/lead/or advance of that cam is called..."timing". I would call it "unique".

I don't care what anyone does to their T, but passing off faulty information as gospel to someone who may not know any better, does no one any favors.

I would imagine this sort of advice would cause a cam designer/manufacturer to want to tear his hair out and ask "what is the point of doing all this design work and investing in expensive precision equipment if the end user will not follow simple instructions?"

In 2006, you were touting and extoling the virtues of the Stipe 280 cam. Did you set it to the mfg. value or did you do a piston-position setup then or is it relatively recently that you decided that you no longer trust them to deliver a quality product?

As for Bernhardt, he will have to decide if he is tuning a worn out original cam (piston position) or a modern replacement cam (.010-.012). Right now it appears as though he has a new cam, detuned to obsolete specs and sees the resultant large clearances. The near-perfect consistency of gap leads me to believe that it is a relatively new replacement cam. A quick measurement of the lobes and visual scan of condition should put that question to bed without too much effort.

Norman Kling · Post by **Norman Kling** » Sat Oct 29, 2022 9:55 pm

I will add a couple other things to the mix. The height of the pistons above the wrist pin, and whether the top of the block has been resurfaced. For a modern cam with good bearings and adjustable lifters, the most accurate method would be to use the clearance between the lifter and the valve stem with lifter on the heel of the cam.
If you use the KR Wilson method, be sure to check the clearances, not necessarily for adjustment but to be sure they are not too close which could cause burnt valves.
Norm

Scott_Conger · Post by **Scott_Conger** » Sat Oct 29, 2022 10:16 pm

Bernhardt

may I suggest that you open the inspection plate on the pan: measure the base circle of each cam and measure the total height. Subtract base circle from the height dimension and you will have your lift...if the cam is worn, each lobe may be a bit different, but after recording each cam lobe you should have some idea as to what the lift is or was supposed to be.

Lift will likely be in the range of: .250", .280" or .290"

Once you have determined total lift, you can begin to guess who made the cam, and whether it is a reground cam, an original cam, or a new cam

for more information on cams with different lifts, you can start studying here and see if you can match your lift and duration to any of the mentioned cams...at least it is a start: https://mtfctulsa.com/Cams/design.htm

good luck!

BernhardBK · Post by **BernhardBK** » Sun Oct 30, 2022 4:21 am

Thanks a lot for the many recommendations.
I am no mechanic and I got all my little knowledge of classic cars from conversations with other classic car friends, reading and trying to understand books and articles from websides (incl. forum, youtube,…).
Maybe many of the information is also not from mechanics, but I think, that doesn’t need to do be a precondition for a useful recommendation.
What I now try to do is to figure out, is, what kind of cam I have in my 1923 Roadster.
I am not quite sure, if I will be able to measure the base circle of each cam and the total high of the cam in the car. I have another cam of a spare engine, where I will practice the measurement, hopefully that will make me able to measure on the cam in the car.
I will try to understand the mtfculsa information regarding the different cams and next Saturday I’ll try to measure that. But I am not very confident, that I’ll be able to understand and measure it.

As I already stated, I am no mechanic, but I am a collector of information which I try to understand…

What I read about Ford Model T engines is, that there MUST be valve overlap.
I understood that valve overlap is the situation, in which the inlet valve already starts to open BEFORE the exhaust valve is fully closed.
Both valves should be open for a short moment, when the cylinder gets gas to explode short time later…
Hopefully my understanding of valve overlap is correct.

I timed my valves with the KR Wilson tool, which means I timed the opening of the exhaust valve and the closing of the inlet valve!

But that led to fact that I do not have the “valve overlap situation”.
In my engine none of the 4 cylinders have the exhaust valve still open, when the inlet valve starts to open.
Maybe that might be a problem for the engine…
And maybe that proves that the KR Wilson method should not be used for timing/clearance the valves in my car/camshaft (maybe because the top of the head has been resurfaced, ...).
What do you think about that?

Thanks for your enlightenments

Bernhard
from the oldest city in the Hunsrueck region

Kerry · Post by **Kerry** » Sun Oct 30, 2022 4:53 am

Man! you are trying too hard to make it rocket science, set the lash at 10 in and 12 ex and be done with it and have fun driving the tread of the tires.

Post by **Jerry VanOoteghem** » Sun Oct 30, 2022 8:16 am

Kerry wrote: ↑
Sun Oct 30, 2022 4:53 am
Man! you are trying too hard to make it rocket science, set the lash at 10 in and 12 ex and be done with it and have fun driving the tread of the tires.

Agreed!

Post by **TXGOAT2** » Sun Oct 30, 2022 10:32 am

I'd get a good camshaft and lifters and be done with it. Valves, valve seats, valve guides, and valve springs need to be in good shape, too. If you have the engine apart, check the combustion chamber volume and correct if necessary. I'd resurface the head, then correct the volume.

Post by **TXGOAT2** » Sun Oct 30, 2022 10:45 am

Increasing valve lash will decrease lift and duration, and can lead to valves "slamming" on the seat and lifters "slamming" the cam lobes. Decreasing lash will increase lift and duration, and may lead to valves failing to seat fully under sustained loads or high speed operation.

Dan McEachern · Post by **Dan McEachern** » Sun Oct 30, 2022 2:38 pm

After reading all the above, there are a few facts that need to be set straight for everyone's benefit.
The KRW valve setting gage and the setting of valve opening events by piston travel (distance of the top of the piston to the deck) only works for an engine with

1) Stock compression height pistons (which most aftermarket aluminum pistons are not) and

2) A stock camshaft with the original FORD cam profile and

3) a reasonably unworn cam. With that said, I suppose we can all agree to disagree.

To the OP- If you have no idea of what cam grind is in your engine, you might consider setting simply setting the valve lash to about .015" on the exhaust and .012" on the intakes and just run it. If its an old cam, there are most likely no acceleration ramps in the profile to be concerned with, so the above lash is a good starting point. Good luck with your project.

BernhardBK · Post by **BernhardBK** » Mon Oct 31, 2022 3:39 am

Okay, thanks.
For me it's clear now, that the KR Wilson Tool doesn't work in my 1923 Roadster.
I will use the feeler gauge and will check the camshaft not before I need to overhaul the whole engine, what hopefully will be not in the next couple of years - this month I just grinded the valve seats and installed new first oversize valves with new springs...
Thanks a lot for your valve lessons
Bernhard

Post by **Dan Hatch** » Mon Oct 31, 2022 6:00 am

There is a method in Tinkering Tips to time the valves using top dead center with a dial indicator.

Post by **JTT3** » Mon Oct 31, 2022 9:46 am

……………………… ………..

Post by **Moxie26** » Mon Oct 31, 2022 9:55 am

BernhardBK..... Sorry you can't accept setting your valves with a simple tool, on a standard Ford engine with a standard Ford camshaft.... If you do have someone rebuild your engine later, you can direct all the re- manufacturing specifications you want, good luck.

Post by **TXGOAT2** » Mon Oct 31, 2022 9:59 am

... There! You see? THE CHILD HAS PUT JELLY ON HER TACO!!

Post by **JTT3** » Mon Oct 31, 2022 10:18 am

……………………….

Post by **Jerry VanOoteghem** » Mon Oct 31, 2022 10:28 am

Moxie26 wrote: ↑
Mon Oct 31, 2022 9:55 am
BernardBK..... Sorry you can't accept setting your valves with a simple tool, on a standard Ford engine with a standard Ford camshaft.... If you do have someone rebuild your engine later, you can direct all the re- manufacturing specifications you want, good luck.

This was not necessary or helpful....

Scott_Conger · Post by **Scott_Conger** » Mon Oct 31, 2022 10:35 am

Bernhardt

the Tulsa link was really more for information rather than suggesting that you understand all aspects of the information contained. There is no need to use it in any way to finish your adjustments if you chose not to.

That said, if you are interested in trying to understand why you are having seemingly conflicting outcomes, if you will refer to each cam's specs (250, 280, 290) you'll see that each one has different points where valve lift commences, etc. Thinking about this and applying that fact to the problem, should put to bed any notion that every cam can/should be set (by way of lash adjustment) to do exactly the same thing relative to piston position and still retain any semblance of designed cam performance. When referring to some of the specs, I think you will also see why trying to set a modern cam to piston position using original specs will leave you with very wide lash (which you have discovered)...and that very large lash is why you are not seeing the "lap" that you are expecting to see. If you watched the lifters themselves, you'd see the lap, but with the wide lash, and only monitoring the valves, the valves are not correspondingly responding at the proper time.

Post by **TXGOAT2** » Mon Oct 31, 2022 10:54 am

Old engines can be full of surprises. They usually are. In the case of the Model T, you may find any number of irregularities in your century-old engine due to long service, abuse, and "make-do" repairs. Most Ts today have non-original pistons, and not a few have mis-matched pistons, or pistons never intended for a T. Crankshafts may be sprung or twisted. Rods may have been refurbished many times, and may not have correct or uniform center to center measurements. Crankshafts may have had one or more crank pins reground off-center. Many blocks have had the deck surface remachined, and some deck surfaces may not be aligned with the crankshaft centerline as they should be. Main bearing bores may not be exactly on-spec. There are many badly worn camshafts out there, and many re-grinds, some of which may not have been done with great accuracy. "One size" never did fit all T engines, and it certainly isn't likely to fit every T engine today.

BernhardBK · Post by **BernhardBK** » Tue Nov 01, 2022 6:32 am

To be honest, my English is too bad to understand all your comments or even the video

Yesterday evening I used a feeler gauge and set the valves with again.
I could see the "valve overlap" at the lifters of the valve and before that I had a look at a camshaft in the internet, where I could see, that the valves are most time closed. So even I should have found the correct position to set each valve's clearance.
Thanks again - especially for the clarifications about the limitation of the use of the KRWilson Tool and the source of additional information about different cams.

Post by **Moxie26** » Tue Nov 01, 2022 11:07 am

Bernhard.... Good luck and enjoy your ride.

ModelTWoods · Post by **ModelTWoods** » Tue Nov 01, 2022 12:14 pm

Now, I know why cam grinders recommend setting valve clearance by feeler gauge, only, HOWEVER, I have two Stipe camshafts and as I remember, Stipe recommends the same; not by piston position.

lnoller · Post by **lnoller** » Wed Nov 02, 2022 4:49 pm

I got an idea....set the valves one way and run the old girl. If she runs like crap just set the valves the other way and see if it is better. Problem solved!!

Post by **Moxie26** » Wed Nov 02, 2022 5:04 pm

Atta Boy Larry.

!!!!!

Post by **Art M** » Wed Nov 02, 2022 7:07 pm

Set them at 10 and 12 and you will be happy.

Post by **Moxie26** » Wed Nov 02, 2022 9:05 pm

Bernhard..... When you purchased your car, were you told of any repairs or maintenance of the engine and whatever history was known of your car? If there was any replacement of any parts or rebuilding of your engine I'm sure you would have been told of whatever was done to your engine... And that would have been reflected in whatever price the seller was asking. Now since you have adjustable lifters, that necessarily does not mean you had a replacement cam installed .,...yes I can understand new cam bearings , new valves and new valve springs with the original Ford cam installed. Good luck on finding facts about your car's history. ............Setting valves with feeler guages procedure is different than setting with the Piston position method. The Model T engine is a 4-stroke engine. With feeler gauges the Piston should be at top dead center of the compression stroke. Using the Piston position gauge and method, intake an exhaust valves are set in two different strokes, not the same stroke. The Model T Ford service booklet explains how to set valves by piston position. Page 71 entitled "Valve Timing " starting with paragraph 261 explains the Ford method of setting valves by piston position. I made reference to the Model T Ford service book that came out with the improved Model T in late 1925. If you can obtain the Ford service manual, please read and review your procedure to solve your problem.

Post by **Moxie26** » Thu Nov 03, 2022 10:07 am

Moxie26 wrote: ↑
Wed Nov 02, 2022 9:05 pm
Bernhard..... When you purchased your car, were you told of any repairs or maintenance of the engine and whatever history was known of your car? If there was any replacement of any parts or rebuilding of your engine I'm sure you would have been told of whatever was done to your engine... And that would have been reflected in whatever price the seller was asking. Now since you have adjustable lifters, that necessarily does not mean you had a replacement cam installed .,...yes I can understand new cam bearings , new valves and new valve springs with the original Ford cam installed. Good luck on finding facts about your car's history. ............Setting valves with feeler guages procedure is different than setting with the Piston position method. The Model T engine is a 4-stroke engine. With feeler gauges the Piston should be at top dead center of the compression stroke. Using the Piston position gauge and method, intake an exhaust valves are set in two different strokes, not the same stroke. The Model T Ford service booklet explains how to set valves by piston position. Page 71 entitled "Valve Timing " starting with paragraph 261 explains the Ford method of setting valves by piston position. I made reference to the Model T Ford service book that came out with the improved Model T in late 1925. If you can obtain the Ford service manual, please read and review your procedure to solve your problem.
[/quote........... Bernhard, .... Hopefully this information will be helpful

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