Revisit- Brass T's in Australia Hi Constantine!

[Luxford]

Here is Australia at the moment we are still being rained upon no end. large parts of the country under water some for the third time this year, including Lismore Ford dealer Bob Trevan who had his Model K and other T's submerged to the roof of his storage shed.
So one is stuck indoors a lot and in doing so I happened upon an old post on the old Forum from 2010 nearly 12 years ago.

http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/11 ... 1293177166
Those of you who posted and newer members may like to do a reread.
In it Constantine asked about early T's in Australia having local bodies. Since then more has come to light.

Ford Canada getting slowly together bringing over parts from Detroit assembling them as well as looking for local sources to produce more Canada built bits to help along the Canadian content found they could produce more chassis as they had all the components to do that but the one difficult part was the body. In the Book "Shadow of Detroit" several relevant facts appear in the text when you read it closely.
Obviously they had to sell the cars to make their profit to enable them to keep expanding. They found themselves with completed chassis but a shortage of bodies. Being largely independent from Detroit they were trying to avoid the duty on as many things as possible and the body cost was a big one.
So they offered the overseas distributors just the chassis which is what Gordon Mc Gregor considered to be the actual product anyway, the body could be several things but the chassis was the product he was building foremost.
There is now evidence which shows chassis were being delivered to Australia as early as mid1910 or earlier. This made sense the shipping costs would be cheaper, even though the local body may be more expensive the result was complete cars being sold his bank balance was increasing so why not.

In this period a touring, a tourabout, a roadster and a Town Car could be shipped from Canada. and distributors picked one or two of the choice available. If it was only a chassis other styles or more importantly different nicer looking style similar to the European cars were possible.
One mention in February 1911 says chassis to suit single seater bodies will be arriving next week. Obviously if they were arriving in Feb 1911 they would have been sent from Canada in late 1910. In mid 1910 A Melbourne firm ordered "several" Landaulettes for their Taxi business. The Town Car body was not only large it was expensive and required a huge box to transport it. Making the body locally probably saved them quite a deal of money.
No Town Car remains have surfaced in Australia as far as I know but there would have only been a handful compared to the total number of Fords. Being wood they probably deteriorated quickly clocked up heaps of miles been chopped up to make more purposed machines such as farm pick ups till they ended up scattered all over the farm. Even if they did survive years later, if found the new "restorer" probably rebuilt the body as something else or made it a USA version as the body would have been considered "wrong" ( some still say that today with surviving original Australian examples., if its not the same as the USA version it needs to be thrown away.)
1910 is 2 years before Henry made the chassis available, but as we know Ford Canada always changed things where needed, their early touring bodies were wider and had a double front seat to allow the gas tank to be accessed without disturbing the passenger, same sized wheel all around. Obviously Henry Ford took up the chassis sales idea in 1912 having seen how it went in Canada as it helped the bottom line.

[Kerry]

Yes, that was some interesting reading back in 2010. That article that Arthur Davies wrote in 1925 claiming the Australia had 5000 unsold T's always played on my mind so several years ago I did some digging on that claim but more so in shipping and politics of that time frame of 15/16/17. More paper work than I care to re-research but I did post a basic summary at that time. My conclusion was that Davies didn't have his facts correct.

[Luxford]

Kerry, you made that perfectly clear in 2010 but you were way off then and still are, the details as explained then were correct. Since then more on that topic has come to light also, here it is. Even though the book "The Shadow of Detroit" was mentioned at the time extra information was not forthcoming but the event is covered in the book.

The large number of Fords were ordered before the war started in 1914 because of the great sales which escalated every year previously and they ordered big. The orders for the Fords were placed with the numbers to arrive when available as Ford Canada was able to supply them. In 1915 Ford Canada had sent over more than 5000 Fords.

Quoting directly from The Shadow of Detroit"
On page 127 at the bottom David Roberts says " McGregor reported a 50% increase in Ford's export trade due largely to Britain and France being "out of Business" - he was not above exaggeration- but in reality his own overseas business was being affected by the war. In Australia, sales fell off dramatically in early 1915, leaving dealers with thousands of unsold Model T's. Negotiations with a representative sent by McGregor reportedly led to a hold on new shipments and heavy price slashing, which advertisements attributed to the Canadian company's increased production and reduction in manufacturing costs. Reports of a hold on shipments are seriously undermined however, by Ford's aggressiveness, as demonstrated by it's own record of exports to Australia in 1915-16: 5234 cars and 1268 chassis". They were already here way before the events in the following years!!!

This section has a footnote (No 34) and it says. "Evening Record 29 September 1915,Ford Sales Bulletin 31 July 1915. 341, 344. Norm Darwin, The History of Ford in Australia (Newstead, Aus. 1986) 14-15.
Which clearly shows the 5000 plus cars Arthur Davies mentioned in his address was correct, so your conclusion is just wrong! That article which I was able to find here and Roberts also finding two other Canadian references to the same thing in Canada and him adding the Arthur Davies report of the same event shows it is indeed the truth.

[Kerry]

Peter, I don't buy those figures for a second, first off, Canada only built in 1914, 18771 T, s by 1915 the brits had taken control of shipping. The Ford model T in WW1 publication from July 1914 to Nov 1918, Briten alone had built up a fleet estimated between 20-30,000 T's
1914/15 NSW's alone, new car registration number was 6560 let alone adding in the rest of the states. Why T's Held in bondage? if that 5000 number is correct, if so, it wasn't for very long, let alone find a 15 on the road still or for restoring.

By March 1916 the Automobile publishes that, Australia Needs Cheap Cars.

Now Peter, you have been around a long time and rallies etc, how many 14 or 15's can you count that are still around from this "huge" influx of imports? but count the 1916's that came to Australia in a small number by clipper, they aren't in short supply, for the one 15 engine I have found for re-building I would have done 10 16's.

[Luxford]

Kerry,
I can say the same to you, I don't buy your figures, they don't make any sense to me, is there anyone out there that they do??
What has the British control of shipping got to do with the delivery of Fords? They were still being sent to Australia with Fords on them during the War years if you look up the newspapers. The Dealers put on a brave face, building up the Ford sales figurers but look closely and you can see sales dropped, they took to painting them in other colors to try and move them and also did big advertisements pushing commercial versions. Davies and Fehon as well as Tarrant even printed good quality sales booklets.

Queensland Ford Agency always made the point to tell everyone when a ship arrived with more Fords. They were British registered true but they were being sent here to take back much needed supplies to Britain such as coal, wool and wheat so they needed a cargo to bring here and the Fords were ideal.
"Canada only made in 1914 18,771 T's", as Australia was their biggest market the 6000 out of that total sounds right as all the other Commonwealth countries and Canada combined would be getting the others. So what is the point there?
"1914/1915 NSW new car numbers total 6560", yep! lots of sales initially for all makes that's why they ordered big and ended up in strife. Soon went belly up.
British had built up a fleet of 20,000 -30,000 T's. So what! they were supplied by America, nothing to do with Canadian Fords coming here.
"Australia needs cheap cars", probably true as those possible customers here were getting hit with all sorts of taxes to pay for the war but not many had the means to buy anything new and most of the possible buyers had left to fight in Europe.
"Why T's held in bondage" what's that about? I don't think I have ever mentioned bondage.
and your last fact that there are more 1916 T's out there than 1915 T's (well I think that's what you are saying) I don't, in nearly 60 years in Model T's have I ever had a thought that 1916 T's were more prevalent than 1915 T's. They always were in the minority, to illustrate, the entry list for the Maryborough rally in 2019. (Check your copy out) , 1914 -6, 1915 -23, 1916 -1 Other entrant books from the Veteran Car Club and Model T Rallies all show more 1915's than 1916. Geelong in 1998, 1915 -18, 1916- 7. and a good query would be, how many are recent imports and not originals from Canada in the teens, stupid argument!!
I am more likely to believe actual records of the day than someone's idea of what happened, without showing some sort of proper proof. I would believe David Roberts research way more than yours.
I would be interested if anyone sees Kerry's ideas as worthy.
If you can supply any actual real proper evidence rather than ideas of your own I might consider them but so far I don't see you have a any.
You can reply but I won't be answering.

[Kerry]

Like I said, shipping records of the day will tell you more than what someone assumes or speculates much later for their version of history. Never let the truth get in the way of a good story.

1915, 4700 Fords delivered to Australia and New Zealand. The Matatua was the last cargo steamer leaving Canada June 30 1915 with 528 Fords on board and that shipment is quoted as.
"Has been forced upon the company owing to the cargo steamers being pressed into miliary service"

Mr G W Whatmore, director and manager of QLD Motor Agency who had just returned from a visit from Melbourne and Sydney May 1915 reports that Fords have completely sold out of stock.

As for only 1 1916 being at the QLD nationals, I can assure you I wasn't the only one. After checking casting dates as I do, to many people ID their cars by calendar date rather than fiscal model years.

It took until the early 1920's to clear the back log of wool and grain rotting on the docks that was ear marked for England during the war which could not be delivered.

[m2m]

Hi Peter !

I just saw this thread, thanks. I will have a read then reply.

Constantine

[Kerry]

The order of cars to fill the quoters of sales, the Wakatana, the second last steamer load to be sent to Australia, is due in Melbourne on August the 1st 1915. The next normal order of 720 cars for Australia was advised of the alteration in shipment, "will be brought to Australia per medium of sailing ships".
So, the only evidence of any sent number, forced upon the company, is still that last steamer, the Matatua with the load of 528 cars.
So far, I haven't found any dates for sailing ship loads in the last 6 mth's of 1915, 4 that arrived in 1916 before the Embargo. I do have a recorded casting date of 23rd of Oct 1915, so I'm assuming something must have made it to Australia by the 1915 Christmas?.
Plenty of paper reports of shortage of motor cars at that time period though.
As for the 5000+ cars stuck in New York for export Dec 1915, quoted as, "no fewer than 6000 to 7000 railway trucks loaded with motor cars being on the railway lines approaching New York City"
So if you were in the market for a new car in 1916 from that part of the world, Fords from Canada was your option. The forced load would have been a blessing for car sales here.
There is a story of few Dodges making it to Australia via Canada, an Australian news paper, bought a de-commissioned steamer from a scrap yard to get print paper to Australia from Canada. The Dodges did the trip on deck and needed to be stripped and re-painted before delivery, so the story go's.

[nsbrassnut]

Hi Kerry

Did the Matatua make a late 1915 delivery?

This one may not count, but the Matatua was loaded up ready to leave St. John, New Brunswick in March of 1916 when it caught fire and sank at the dock. That shipment of Fords was pulled back off, refurbished (Ford didn't like to waste stuff) and sold locally in the Canadian Maritimes.

Just curious. You make it sound like they may have used the same frieghters for several shipments of Ford.

Drive Safe

Jeff

[Kerry]

Jeff.
I have not found that any steamers had been used after the Matatua was used for that last trip in 1915, despite Peters comment that the T's for the war effort came from the USA is not a fact, so it is possible they were bound for England in March 1916
4 sail clippers are listed doing trips before the Embargo, the Walmate holding 155 cars, the Howth 120, the Kinpurney 115 and the Inverness 120.

[m2m]

Interesting discussion.

Do Australian Customs import records for vehicles and chassis exist from this period?

Off topic but maybe relevant. Ford Times magazines of pre-WW1 had a number of articles suggesting Ford cars were selling like hot cakes in Imperial Russia. Before he passed away, I met a Professor in Moscow that looked into this using Russian Government import records from this period. His research found very few USA made light and heavy vehicles were imported; most vehicles imported into Imperial Russia were from France and Germany. And of the few USA made vehicles imported, Ford was less common than White Motor Company. Fake news did exist even back then

[Kerry]

Constatine, records might still exist but to find is another story, I have some government department figures compiled by who knows who in 2003 which are just laughable
As for the story of Russian T;s, 31 May 1915 a story is published that Henry Ford announced that he had an order from Russia for 40,000, He said, 15,000 in stock leaving 25,000 cars to be made and the whole order will be filled in two weeks. Did it happen? can't answer that.

[m2m]

Constatine, records might still exist but to find is another story, I have some government department figures compiled by who knows who in 2003 which are just laughable
As for the story of Russian T;s, 31 May 1915 a story is published that Henry Ford announced that he had an order from Russia for 40,000, He said, 15,000 in stock leaving 25,000 cars to be made and the whole order will be filled in two weeks. Did it happen? can't answer that.

Frank,

Tens of thousands of Ts being shipped to Russia in 1915 is very unlikely to be true.

Here's an old post:

http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/118802/174389.html

Boris Shpotov researched Ford in Russia using Russian government records and also visited the Benson Ford Research Center and wrote a book "Henry Ford: life and business" (this book is in Russian and the Benson has a copy).

Apart from that, where's a single photo are some of these thousands of cars having arrived in Russia, or a follow up article in the Ford Times discussing the arrival of these cars.

Constantine

P.S.

Here's another interesting Russian T discussion:

http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/17 ... 1301800104

[Kerry]

Exactly Constantine, just like the BS on 5000 in storage in Australia!

[m2m]

Exactly Constantine, just like the BS on 5000 in storage in Australia!

Where would the relevant car import records be assuming they still exist? Perhaps the National Archives of Australia?

[Kerry]

Archives comes up with saying "No Records", for the time frame I've been searching.

[m2m]

Archives comes up with saying "No Records", for the time frame I've been searching.

Maybe records from that era haven't been digitised (you may need to physically go to where the records are kept...Canberra?), or who knows maybe these records no longer don't exist?