Radiator...time to cut it shorter.

[varmint]

After double checking the radiator shell and convinced that it's OK and taking measurements of the radiator and sure that it's too tall, it's time to cut.
There are new radiators available, which would also require me to purchase a fan hub, then tax and shipping comes to about $980. So why not try and salvage what I've got first.
The gap is about 3/4". The radiator core should be 18-3/8" but is 18-7/8". So the core is about 1/2" too tall and the top tank is 1/4" too tall.
I don't see any reason to shorten the tank...just shorted the core by 3/4".

radiator04.jpg (70.51 KiB) Viewed 6686 times

[Kerry]

With over 50 years of family-owned radiator service up my sleeve, trust me, if you don't have any experience, you will turn it to a pile of scrap.

[Wayne Mims]

Why not just swap it for a short radiator in good condition instead of trying to cut it down. I'm sure there's someone out there. got a decent short radiator. That would swap you. Looks like an awful lot of work and you're probably gonna end up with a pile of crap just my two. Cents.

[varmint]

Frank,
This non-Ford radiator is already a pile of scrap. So, no harm trying.

Ervin,
Actually, our T needs a tall radiator but this example is already taller than a tall radiator.
Yes, did look for a used one. Found it. Bought it. And got stuck with this. Do I trust a seller going thru that again?

Here are the two older posts which precede this one:
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=37169
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=37301

The side straps are two-piece steel which overlap, barely welded together, and a random bracket on one side.
It should be easy to cut the welds, overlap them 3/4" after the core is shortened.

[tdump]

I have done alot of things in my time to save money, alot of stuff folks on here would think I was bonkers for trying but I was successful. But this is 1 thing I would be reluctant to try. I am looking forward to seeing how this works out

[Scott_Conger]

I am pretty sure you don't even know at this point if it cools, but you are willing to invest super human effort to knock an inch off of the height? If no one else, listen to Kerry

personally, I'd lay it in the road and let traffic run over it. The end result will be the same and it will be a quicker and a lot less work.

[tdump]

Would it be possible to cut the steel brackets off the sides and simply move them up the radiators sides a bit? dropping it down in the frame?

[JTT3]

Just a thought Vernon, why not just move the mounting tabs instead of cutting the core? You should have plenty of room based on your gap for the shift on the frame by allowing it to sit lower in the frame. If you’ll note the bottom tank is narrower at the edges and that should allow the radiator to sit lower in the frame. The bottom strap may need some material welded to it to match up the hole once moved but certainly an easier project vs your initial plan. On The upper tabs, Pop the rivets and move it the amount needed, then re rivet or bolt with grade 8 bolts & lock, nut once you are at the level you need to be, then you can add the additional material on the bottom tab & bend to meet the upper tabs, drill hole and your set.

[varmint]

Awesome replies.

John,
In one of the older posts, tried to raise the two side brackets but the hand crank is in the way. Cannot lower it.

Bent the fins down all the way across to mark 3/4" that will have to get removed.
Cut the tiny welds on the steel side brackets.
I mean...even if this fails, don't you want to see what happens next?

[speedytinc]

Could you dimple the bottom tank to clear the crank?

[RVA23T]

I mean...even if this fails, don't you want to see what happens next?

YES

[Tim Williams]

what about just putting a spacer block between the shell and the radiator? start with wood and if it works, then make some out of aluminum. of course drill the hole for the bolt.

Tim

[Mark Gregush]

Putting spacers between the tabs and shell will also raise the height of the hood. Unless you are trying to use a low shell on a tall radiator for a car built after 1924, then it would not matter except for the gap. What year is the car?

[Allan]

No hood has any chance of fitting if you raise the front, unless of course you raise the back the same amount!!!! Good luck with the hood latches.

Allan from down under.

[varmint]

1926 (October) coupe.
The high hood matches the high shell almost perfectly.

Yes Mark,
I saw that spacers would indeed leave a gap between the shelf and the hood.

John,
I could dimple up 3/4" on the lower tank but it looks too restrictive for coolant flow.

[dobro1956]

I have also done many many things to make something work because it was all I had. I also consider myself very capable to pull off some really questionable fixes. But I would never attempt to shorten a radiator the way you are attempting. Just getting the tubes back into their holes in the tank would be an achievement. Then it will need to be re-soldered back in place water tight. Not easy with good clean new parts let alone old dirty probably rotten metal.

So I'll just have to set back and see how it turns out ..... good luck ....

[JTT3]

So meet in the middle some where. The dimple in the bottom & some spacers between the radiator tabs & frame of course you’ll still need to change the location of the tabs but it might just be enough to clear the ratchet / motor mount.
Basically I’m trying to get you to an alternative that prevents you from your recent plan. Here’s another thought, not far from you is an “old school” radiator shop that has the experience to actually do what you want to do. They repaired & recored many of my junk radiators over a few decades.

[Allan]

There already is a dimple in the bottom of a Ford radiator to clear the saddle on the front engine mount. The "dimple" would need to almost crush the bottom tank to make another 3/4". And then there is clearance to be had at the frame side rails. Already, the standard tank is tapered on the end to clear the front cross member.

Any adjustment must be at the top of the core. This involves removing the side supoprt straps, dis-assembling the top tank, removing the top header plate from the core, cutting down the core, re-tinning all the tubes at the top and then soldering [read soddering] it all back together. Then modifying the side support panels and fixing them back in place. All this on a radiator of unknown cooling capacity !!!!!.

Allan from down under.

[tdump]

I am curious as to how a radiator got to be a "Odd" size anyway?

[John kuehn]

The radiator looks like a flat tube. Ford made a flat tube for a while for the 26-27 T’s. If it’s not a T radiator it could be a aftermarket or recore that built up later. It can be made to fit with blocks or shims to fit with what you have. It won’t be perfect but would work.

But make sure it will cool by using it and driving it if you have to modify it later for what migh be a better fit. Old radiators can look good but no cool. Been there before twice and won’t try again.

[TXGOAT2]

It is normal and necessary to have a gap of about 1/8 inch between the bottom of the hood shelves and the tops of the fenders. It is also normal to have a gap of about 1/2 to 3/4 of an inch between the bottom of the hood sides and the tops of the hood shelves.
The radiator mounts do not sit on the frame. They sit on springs and "thimbles", and rides a half inch or so above the frame.

The body of the car sits directly on the frame, but it is common to have shim washers between the body mounting points and the frame brackets. Some of the body mounting points will have hardwood blocks or inserts that the body bolts pass through.
If these are worn, rotted, or missing, it can be impossible to make the hood and fenders fit together properly, and the doors may not shut properly, or shut at all.

You'll save a lot of headaches by getting fenders, running boards, and running board aprons that fit the car. Coupe rear fenders are different from some others of the same model year.

[varmint]

Thanks for the encouragement and thanks for the voice of reason.
There are flat tubes but does not say "Ford" anywhere on it. Maybe someone may want to try to identify what this really is (besides scrap).
(Prior photos)

[varmint]

Cut!
Now, time to remove paint before sweating the parts off.

[Scott_Conger]

all this work for a two-row, untested, non-FORD radiator

*shaking head*

You're certainly a tenacious guy!

[JTT3]

Might as well stop unless you’re a glutton for punishment. Two row flat tube in our neck of the woods won’t, excuse the pun, cut it. You might as well order a leakless water pump if you do manage to put it back together water tight. While you’re at it order a dc electric radiator cooling fan. You’re going to need it. I think Ford experimented using a two row radiator in late 25 & 26 based on info from McCalley’s book. If it’s original you’ll see the tubes are more oval shaped than rectangular and as the story goes mostly sold in the more northerly areas. In addition I believe the fan shaft a hub were made longer so it was closer to the radiator for cars that had the two row radiators. That said even then it wasn’t up to the challenge.

[TXGOAT2]

Did the 2 row Ford radiators lack the steel bar through the core between the lower mounting ears?

As I understand it, the 2 row radiators weren't much good when they were new.

[Kerry]

If you go by what was available in the period parts books, the options for round tube radiators, 3, 4 or 5 tubes, the one that I'm sure would have been a piece of crap is 1924-26, is listed as a single row flat tube radiator.

[Allan]

Vernon, cutting the core at the bottom is a stroke of genius! It will be much easier to work with the bottom tank than the top one. This will mean trimming the steel side straps to length, an easy fix. It might have been easier to remove the bottom tank first, and then the base header from the full core. Now you have little to hold on to when working on the cut-off section. Good luck with tinning and re soddering the header to the core.

Allan from down under.

[varmint]

Obviously, there are two rows, saw that before I cut it.
Only removing the bottom tank to do all the work and leaving the top tank on untouched.
The two mounting brackets have a "left" and a "right" since the bolt hole shifts away from the inlet and outlet pipes.
It looks like somebody has worked on this tank before.

Pat,
With the tank directly on the frame, there was at least an inch gap.

Scott,
I imagine you with right now as a wobble head dash ornament, "shaking head".

John,
Yes, this T has the longer fan hub, the reason for even bothering with this economy radiator. If it fails to cool, then we replace the radiator and fan hub together.

Allan,
The separation between the side steel brackets is at the lower tank. No trimming of straps necessary. They will simply overlap better by 3/4".

Pealing away the layers. The flat tubes are brass and the fins are copper.

[speedytinc]

While you have the tank off, rod out the core.
You can cut aluminum strips 1/8" or so under width & of various thicknesses.
Gently push thru each tube to ensure there are no obstructions.

Watching & learning from your experiences.

[dobro1956]

More than likely the radiator is the 2 row flat tube type that was associated with the "loss leader" cars that were made to compete with Chevy and other company's who were able to sell their cars as cheap or cheaper than Ts. I believe the loss leaders were sold at aprox. a 11.00 loss. But it made it possible to have a car to advertise at less than the competition. I had a 1926 non starter car that had the 2 row radiator. It was a like new radiator and never would cool the car .

[Allan]

Donnie, the narrow core round tube radiators I have seen are the same as the standard Ford radiators, except for the thinner core which leaves a blank space on the bottom tank. This radiator is a replacement type. Differences are, side panels, no reinforcing bar through core, different shape bottom outlet casting, different top outlet and resultant top tank panels, flat tubes etc. And it is out of spec as far as fit goes, not unlike some of the aftermarket reproduction parts available to us today. It is likely a replacement designed to undercut the price of others in the market.

Allan from down under.

[varmint]

1) Filed the tubes on the left, right side is untouched.

2) Wire wheeled the paint off the tank. Sweated off the brackets (left and right are different).
Stainless pan to catch the drippings, for reuse or not.

3) Separated the tank.

4) These brass tube stubs need to all leave.

[RajoRacer]

Keep that up Vernon & you'll need to open a repair shop !!!

[tdump]

Yep, I have 1 here you can check for leaks and repair for me anytime.

[varmint]

Yes John,
Saw quite a few videos of workers running metal strips with teeth down a core.

That did not take long at all, just a torch and then shake off the little brass guys off.
Collecting more solder to maybe reuse, it's expensive but I got a fresh new roll just for this project.
The brass plate was warped on the left side before I started.

[varmint]

Straightened the plate.
Wire brushed the inside of the tank pieces.
Even - Odd number of tubes, can only go on one way.
Tapped down in place
Expanded the tubes for a tight solder fit.
Filed the burrs.
Need to cut the tubes shorter and file again but not as short as the broken tube on the end.

radiator27.jpg (46.47 KiB) Viewed 5732 times

[varmint]

The gap between the radiator bracket and the shell is now zero.

radiator34.jpg (93.08 KiB) Viewed 5657 times

[KBurket]

I am impressed! Thanks for posting your progress.

[Kerry]

Everything should have been cleaned and tinned, header plate, tank and all the tubes before assembling..

[Allan]

Frank, that would take all the challenge out of making it watertight! You are correct of course. Trying to get a consistent flow on un-tinned parts is a real challenge. I hope it works.

Allan from down under.

[varmint]

For closure on this topic, I have worked on several radiators over the years and most leak after the first attempt of a repair. This is nothing new when you watch the pros sweat the radiator up as they merely test and sweat it up again. Some I test for leaks and fix, others get taken to the pros. This rad I took to the local pro and they, to no surprise, found leaks in my work. They also found several leaks in the top tank which I never touched. But after $200 there is a non-leaking radiator. Unfortunately, they painted our nickle plated cap black. Guess I will paint it too.
Vernon

[tdump]

let us see it on the car when you get it installed.

[John kuehn]

With the work you put into it I hope it does a good job of cooling.

[Henry K. Lee]

Vernon,

I like people that do not give up easy! I too look at challenges not disappointments, ROCK ON!

Hank

[babychadwick]

I just found this thread and boy are there a lot of depressing comments. If it hadn't worked it still would have gained you experience which is more valuable than what you were working with! When I was 16 I had my speedster that had a fan blade go into the honeycomb overland radiator on the car. Fortunately nobody was around to tell me I couldn't straighten and fill the destroyed section. A good bit of time and effort and it was repaired and no longer leaking. Take a look at an old dykes book and they expect radiator repair to be a skill people can accomplish.

[Duey_C]

Vern, I'm glad I waited to ask how it turned out. I was voting for you too!
You had the guts to try it and that is paramount. Very cool!
Excellent post Chad! Nobody said we couldn't.
I had my own little foray into a radiator as a 16 or so year old. The IH truck rad been thru the rad guy's shop.
100 scraped up dollars later, it still leaked. Propane torch and solder fixed it up. Still holding. I couldn't do it again if I had to.