Who has a Kelsey Felloe?

[Oldav8tor]

I need help from someone who has a Kelsey demountable wheel. I'm doing some research related to the design of reproduction rims and need to know the width of a Kelsey felloe. I suspect they are narrower than the typical Ford or Hayes but don't have one to check. In case you're unsure what to measure, I've attached a drawing. To make the measurement, I use a simple pair of calipers. Measurements in mm preferred but anything will do.

Thanks in advance!
Tim

felloe.jpg (56.72 KiB) Viewed 2140 times

[Joe Bell]

The lugs I have and nuts are flat? yours are beveled?

[CudaMan]

I suspect the cross section was selected just to show the dimension of interest, it wasn't meant to be 100% faithful. Here are a collection of rim/felloe cross sections (courtesy of Martynn Vowell).

[Oldav8tor]

I do not have a Kelsey felloe thus the question. I used the excellent artwork from Martynn Vowell as a basis for my illustration. I simply need to know the width. I believe many of the Kelsey felloes and rims were made in Windsor, Ontario and are more common on Canadian cars and Canadian exports. I also think there are minor differences, thus the question.

So many felloes and rims get mixed up today there are many people driving on combinations that were never expected to be used together. In many cases they work just fine, but perhaps not in all.

[Dan Hatch]

I took a set of NOS Kelsey rims out of a Ford Dealership in North Tn that closed in 1929. So they were not just used in Canada.

[Allan]

Here you go Tim.

These are both Canadian Kelsey felloes the black loose lug one made in 1923 and the red fixed lug one in 1925.

Note the much wider inner land on the red fixed lug felloe. This felloe is 0.2" wider than the black loose lug felloe, all the difference being in the wider inner rolled edge. This difference is not shown in Martynn's drawings.

Back to back, the difference in width of the inner land is more marked, and the difference in diameter shows up too.

Note the rim register mark highlighted on the red fixed lug felloe. On an unworn combination of rim and felloe, the rim wedges on that wider inner land. It is this wedge effect which allows the wheel to be "driven". On such a good combination there will be a gap, wide enough to take a credit card, between the felloe outer edge and the rim.

On the black loose lug felloe, the rim binds on the outside rolled edge of the felloe, the credit card gap being on the inside land.

This outer rolled edge on the loose lug felloe is wider than it is on the fixed lug felloe, but the difference is not as much as it is on the inside edge.

Some believe that the rims bind on both edges of the felloe. It is hard to believe that two roll formed components could be made to enable such a precise fit. These photos clearly show that a fit on both lands is not the case. This is obviously not the case on those felloes with the straight up outer edge.

Another difference which is no so obvious is a difference in the inside diameter of the two types of felloes. The fixed lug felloes have a deeper section, making the spokes shorter. A number of restorers have found this out the hard way, having purchased spokes made for fixed lug felloes and finding them too short for their loose lug felloes.

Martynn's drawings are a good guide to the various rim/felloe combinations, but they are not definitive.
They show no difference in the variations in the rolled felloe edges.
They all show the rim in contact on both the outer and inner lands.
The three Ford loose lug clamping pieces show no land for the longer leg of the lug to engage.

There needs to be more work done on wheel rim combinations. What I have learned is through experience, and that experience is limited to our Canadian sourced production in the main. My experience with US made Hayes wire wheels does however fit with what I have found with wooden spoked fixed lug wheels.

Allan from down under.

[Luxford]

My Kelsey felloes measure 1 - 15/16 inches

[Luxford]

I must have been posting at the same time as Allan, I agree with him only one edge seats the rim this would spread the load evenly around the felloe and rim but the driving/braking forces are taken by either the bolts (if the rims have a fixed lug) or should have an insert in the rim to go over the bolt to prevent slippage of the rim or have the steel tube around the valve hole to contact the felloe valve hole as some other types have. Often with miss- matched rims and felloes there is no actual stop to prevent the rim from sliding around the felloe and with rims being so flexible no guarantee that enough surface contact between rim and felloe can prevent the two surfaces from slipping against each other. As it's obvious that both edges of the felloe aren't meant to make contact I can't see that the makers would have thought owners would tighten the rim and felloe enough to prevent slippage so a separate contact point needed to be in place to stop the rim turning. If the rim is not prevented by a mechanical system then the rim will move around and rip out the valve stem.

[Luxford]

Here is a Kelsey rim with separate lug, you can see the rim has a steel block which straddles the bolt to take the driving forces. The Ford rim has a similar design. Obviously a fixed lug rim gets the drive through the bolt/felloe connection and can't slip around each other.

[Hap_Tucker]

Great info. Below is a copy of a factory Ford drawing for a USA Kelsey Wheel used by Ford USA. (Note Ford of Canada was supplied by Kelsey Wheel Canada factory that was located in Canada to avoid custom tariffs ref: David Roberts, "In the Shadow of Detroit" pages 100, 213 and other pages. From memory -- not as reliable as references -- I think I remember Ford of Canada had another supplier very early in Ford of Canada's production).

Note the drawing has 12 revision between May 23, 1919 and the last shown revision of Aug 13, 1923. So the drawing is up to date for a USA Kelsey Wheel produced for Ford USA sometime after Aug 13, 1923. (There were some cases where Ford updated the drawing based on what was actually already being done. But in general they were representative of the specifications for the size the part(s), material to use etc.

The drawing should be to scale - so if expanded to where the nuts size is the proper size it might or might not be accurate for that same measurement you are looking for (again for the 1923'ish time frame).

I'm Looking forward to what if any USA measurements will be posted. And from that factory drawing, it implies that the USA Kelsey wheels actually mated on both the inner and outer felloe flanges. Clearly not what Allan has found. But perhaps that is a USA vs Canadian difference? Or I'm looking at the drawing wrong or something else?

Lots more to learn and I hope others will add additional information.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off

[Allan]

In a previous post it was indicated in the patent application that the U shaped lug which bridges the rim bolt nearest the valve stem was described as a driving lug. I have seen combinations of wear in that particular rim bolt and the lug where the bolt has been worn nearly half way through and both sides of the lug severely worn.I have also seen others where no wear was evident. Clearly when there is no wear, there is no driving force on the lug or bolt.

Such wear only comes when the rim is loose on the felloe. If the bolts and lugs are kept tight, the rim is tight on the felloe. The driving force is maintained not by that singular lug, but by the wedging force between the rim and the felloe land. That force is applied by the rim bolts. The same applies with the fixed lug rims. The bolts jam the rim against the wider inner land on the felloe. Rather than describe that lug as a driving lug, it is best described a safety lug to prevent the rim screwing around the felloe and ripping the valve stem out of the tube. It is more necessary on rims with the solid ridge around them, as these do not have the relief cut in them for the foot of the loose lug.

Some rims have a collar around the valve stem. The felloe on which they should be fitted has a similar collar around the valve stem hole, into which the rim collar fits. This combination is also a safety measure to stop the rim slipping around the felloe. It is not a drive device, just as the U shaped lug is not.

From this, clearly some combinations are unsafe. A rim with a collar around the valve stem, fitted to a felloe without a collar, is open to slippage if the bolts are not tight. Different miss matches create different problems. Some are really unsafe.

With all demountable rims, the bolts are there to wedge the rims onto the felloe lands. If they get loose, wear occurrs, fit is compromised, and problems ensue. This can lead to the wheel bolts becoming drive bolts because the rim is no longer tight on the felloe.

Obviously, other have different opinions.

Allan from down under.

[Oldav8tor]

Thanks guys! A lot of info to digest and make sense of. Just a note - looking at the Ford and Hayes rims I have the outer edge of the rim has a raised bead just inside the lugs that lightly touches the circumference of the fellow and the rear of the rim fits against the angled rear flange of the felloe. I would say the rim is supported both front and rear. In the attached photo of a Hayes rim you see the bead and the wear marks on the back of the rim where it contacts the wheel flange. I'm no expert on the subject but I'm learning thanks to the info being shared here.

[Allan]

Tim, I believe the wear register on the inside edge of the rim is allowing the rim to go further onto the felloe, resulting in the rolled part of the rim making light contact with the felloe. After a 100 or so years of use it is bound to happen. I have a Hayes wire wheel where that wider inner land on the felloe is worn so thin it has allowed the lug to make similar wear marks on the outer face of the felloe, rather than the lug standing off with a gap. In this situation, the four rim bolts are becoming drive bolts.

Allan from down under.