Availability of authentic Font & Size Number Stamps

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Does anyone have a source for authentic sized number stamps that also has the correct style font? I have (-and use) them for Model-A and E V8 but I don't have for a T and it appears they are different than the later KR Wilson stamps. Suggestions??

[Steve Jelf]

Online ads often have pictures. I'd start with a Google search of number stamps for sale. You might get lucky.

[Jerry VanOoteghem]

There's always this route I suppose...
https://buckeyeengraving.com/custom-steel-hand-stamps/

[TRDxB2]

I spent some time searching for the font style used for engine number stamps and never found a good match across all the numbers

This what I came up with based one some stampings that looked original. The arrow point to the numbers hardest to match (9 is 6 upside down)

[BigAl]

Sometimes if you want an identical match you have to have them made. I have been fortunate I live near Detroit and have many local options. I have had great results at Argon Tool 248-583-1605. Madison Heights, Mi. They do stamps for the automotive Industry.

[kmatt2]

I can’t help you with a current source of number stamps that match the stamps that Ford used during the Model T years. But back in the early 1970’s I was able find a new set of Model T matching stamps being sold in an original wood box . Found by accident , in an old hardware store that had been in business in a small Central Valley California farming town. The hardware store was in the same brick building just off the branch line railroad tracks going back to the early 1920’s and run by the same family. It is my opinion that the Model T era stamps matched a commonly used and sold font of the day. Try looking for matching stamps at places that sell older used tools and hardware supplies.

[Dan Hatch]

Check this out
https://www.youngbrosstampworks.com/rou ... character/

[Allan]

My set came from a restoration supplies emporium which catered for home renovators/restorers who wanted original fittings. A side line included old/collectible hand tools, and they had a large collection of stamps, both letters and numbers My numbers are about as close as you could get, except that the 1 does not have the little foot on it. I am not that anal about absolute detail that I have yet made a little tool to add that detail. However, they had no letter C in the size needed to prefix Canadian numbers.I did find a Q and a G of the same size, and with the help of a Dremel tool, these make a prefect impression.

Allan from down under.

[TRDxB2]

Check this out
https://www.youngbrosstampworks.com/rou ... character/

I visited the site to compare their font. Then I noticed that they are in Muscatine Iowa,just 30 minutes away from me, 2 miles from my Brother-in-law and about the same from a Golf Course I play occasionally. Guess I need to plan a visit & see what they can do. There 3 & 7 are just about perfect.

[micshotrodgarage]

Frank, Let us know what you find out, I would like to have a set too.

[Dan Hatch]

Their web site says they only sell to their distributors.

[Allan]

Looking at the photos of the engine number on the original 1913 tourer Mark Chaffin has for sale, chasing a particular font may be like tyring to herd cats. Check out the differences showing

Allan from down under.

[TRDxB2]

Looking at the photos of the engine number on the original 1913 tourer Mark Chaffin has for sale, chasing a particular font may be like tyring to herd cats. Check out the differences showing

Allan from down under.

I have looked at numerous engine stampings via the internet and the most common are as I displayed above. As we know engines were replaced were to be stamped with the number of the replaced engine. In that case the stamp used my or may not have been matching Ford stamping. NOTE: The last sentence in the the ford manual instruction indicates that "the stamps are inexpensive & can be purchased at a local hardware store"
If you look at the picture where I have reversed the image in order to see the number shapes used by Ford. So if one desires to match to am original font then that should be as shown
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[Ed Baudoux]

My grandfather had a set of stamping dies for the Model A Ford, complete with the correct stars I don't know what ever became of them.

[Allan]

Frank, my point is there obviously were different fonts used by Ford at different times. What may be correct for one plant at one time may not be correct anywhere else. Having a good set to match an original number is fine. Having a Ford suggested set from a local hardware shop is not likely to produce any sort of consistency.

Allan from down under.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

I visited the site to compare their font. Then I noticed that they are in Muscatine Iowa,just 30 minutes away from me, 2 miles from my Brother-in-law and about the same from a Golf Course I play occasionally. Guess I need to plan a visit & see what they can do. There 3 & 7 are just about perfect.

Frank, have you been able to schedule a Tee-time, along with a visit to Young Bros. yet??

[TRDxB2]

I visited the site to compare their font. Then I noticed that they are in Muscatine Iowa,just 30 minutes away from me, 2 miles from my Brother-in-law and about the same from a Golf Course I play occasionally. Guess I need to plan a visit & see what they can do. There 3 & 7 are just about perfect.

Frank, have you been able to schedule a Tee-time, along with a visit to Young Bros. yet??

Not yet - and the group I play with on Monday think its to far away. But as it gets cooler with tee off later ... so there may be a chance.

[speedytinc]

First would be a consensus of what's correct/acceptable.
I notice a major difference in the sample 1's & the hardware store set recommended by Ford service.
Did I miss what the correct # height should be? Was it special or a common fractional size?

[Chris Haynes]

So you remove the old number and put on the number you want. How do you plan or recreating the original cast texture of the number boss? It won't take any special devices to notice that the original number as been removed. If you happen to run into a Law Enforcement Officer that is having a bad day you may find yourself in trouble. It is illegal in every state to remove a manufacturers number. In CA it is section 10751 of the vehicle code. I learned this the hard way.

[Allan]

There is no need to remove the old number. The boss on my barn fresh buckboard is so rusted on the right end that the last digit in the number is gone. The 1925 car was re-registered in 1954 with just the C and 5 digits.

When restoring my 1925 roadster the original block was beyond economic rescue, so i used a replacement. I made a brass plate the exact shape of the engine number boss, and stamped the original number on the plate. That plate was fitted with a liberal application of black RTV and sandwiched between the block and the side water outlet. Once painted, with sawdust applied to/in the wet paint, it cannot be detected. I have not altered/obliterated the donor block number, I have retained the original block, so it can't be used by anyone else. When we have a car inspected for registration, the identity check involves checking the number against a stolen vehicle register. I have the original, so that box was ticked off. Another box requires a frame/ID number, so we stamp a number so that box can be ticked off too. As any T before 1926 was nunberless, the chance of anyone stamping the same number on a restoration is a million to one or more. On my roadster, the specila wide body had an individual body number stamped in the timberwork. That served as the ID number.

Allan from down under.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

So you remove the old number and put on the number you want. How do you plan or recreating the original cast texture of the number boss? It won't take any special devices to notice that the original number as been removed. If you happen to run into a Law Enforcement Officer that is having a bad day you may find yourself in trouble. It is illegal in every state to remove a manufacturers number. In CA it is section 10751 of the vehicle code. I learned this the hard way.

Chris, ...answers to your questions can be made in many ways, -but I will begin here based on personal first-hand experience.

To start, I am a professional engine rebuilder operating a licensed vintage repair business in Tennessee. As such, on many occasions we have been used to professionally verify VINs on out-of-state title transfers. One of the biggest misconceptions many (-like you) have is that beginning in the 1920s, the engine is NOT the VIN. In the case of Ford, the engine number only dictated what the VIN would be for that vehicle when the engine was installed. Ford did this practice of stamping all engines sequentially before sending them to Branches as a method from having errors made when stamping the VIN to the frame. Once the frame was stamped with that same number during assembly, THAT stamping became the VIN. Therefore it is legally accepted by DMV when a legitimate business stamps a subcomponent of that vehicle with a number that was originally assigned to that vehicle. Again, it is considered legal to stamp or restamp under those circumstances. It has also been my experiences that documentation and transparency make this even more lawful in the DMVs eyes.

2nd, many replacement engines do not have any number stamped onto them. As such, stamping that engine to match a documented VIN is accepted by the DMV. Ford had a protocol that allowed his Agencies (Dealerships) to stamp or restamp for this purpose, -and the DMVs and the legal system in most States have recognized and accepted this. I did read your state's 10751 law however there are many areas where that can be challenged in court. It likely should be noted that your experiences involved a State where pragmatic logic is generally pushed aside for bureaucracy. Fortunately for the rest of us, most remaining States use common sense in matters such as this. In my State, any vehicle over 30 years old is basically exempt from your code.

To your comment about how to recreate the texture on the pad, it can be done in several methods. One method is to use a scaler which is often used in welding and stress relieving when doing cast iron repair.

I hate that you were affected by your State's law, and I trust you realize that laws and protocols regarding this do vary greatly from state to state.

[Jerry VanOoteghem]

So you remove the old number and put on the number you want. How do you plan or recreating the original cast texture of the number boss?

The engine numbers are stamped on a machined pad to begin with and not on a raw, cast surface. Are you referring maybe to early blocks, where the number appears on the right, front pad, behind the timing gear area?

[speedytinc]

So you remove the old number and put on the number you want. How do you plan or recreating the original cast texture of the number boss?

The engine numbers are stamped on a machined pad to begin with and not on a raw, cast surface. Are you referring maybe to early blocks, where the number appears on the right, front pad, behind the timing gear area?

Regarding blocks numbered above the water inlet, There is no cast texture.
The raised pad is smooth from machine surfacing of the pad & water inlet.
Re-milling the pad to clean off the # turns the surface back to a pre-stamped pad.
Someone really sharp might notice, but these pads would have varied due to shifted castings.

[Steve Jelf]

Just to raise the level of confusion, let's remember that replacement BLOCKS were sold without numbers, supposedly to be stamped with the number of the block they replaced. Replacement ENGINES came from the factory with serial numbers.

[Wayne Sheldon]

Just a minor detail distinction, about machined embossments versus cast surfaces. In 1912, when Ford moved the serial number from where it had been since late in calendar 1908, up to the other side of the block. For awhile, maybe a couple months on SOME blocks as patterns and forms wore out and were replaced, the serial number was stamped on the bare casting of the side of the block. I have seen photos (and a few in person) of mid 1912 blocks with the serial numbers stamped in several locations near the water inlet, on the bare casting. They have been high above the water inlet, low above the water inlet, as well as ahead of or behind the water inlet. The casting date also was on some blocks, but not others. By late 1912 model year, the serial number embossment was well set and established where it remained with some changes in size and shape until the end of production. Casting dates then were placed behind the serial number embossment for the next several years on USA engines.

And for whatever it is worth? All the early engines with the serial number below the valve chamber that I have seen? The number pad was smooth, not a rough casting. Whether it was machined off or filed smooth, I can only guess.

[Dan McEachern]

Who has actually re-stamped serial number on a block and been able to duplicate the depth and "sharpness" of the factory stamped numbers?? Cast iron is brittle by nature and I suspect that aging for 100 years has not made it any more ductile. My guess is (and only a guess) that successfully stamping new numbers will require a pretty healthy hit with a 2-3 lb sledge. Just guessing what the possibility of a big whack on the water jacket side of block that is relatively thin resulting in a cracked casting is.................. Just food for thought.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Who has actually re-stamped serial number on a block and been able to duplicate the depth and "sharpness" of the factory stamped numbers?? Cast iron is brittle by nature and I suspect that aging for 100 years has not made it any more ductile. My guess is (and only a guess) that successfully stamping new numbers will require a pretty healthy hit with a 2-3 lb sledge. Just guessing what the possibility of a big whack on the water jacket side of block that is relatively thin resulting in a cracked casting is.................. Just food for thought.

That is an intriguing thought Dan. We have restamped plenty of Model-A engine blocks using stamps with the correct fonts, but we were restamping from scratch, so as long as the hammer strikes were close to the same swing, this really wasn't an issue. I must confess that at my age, me hitting the head of each stamp the same is much akin to lightning in that I rarely can hit in the same place twice!!

[Chris Haynes]

So you remove the old number and put on the number you want. How do you plan or recreating the original cast texture of the number boss?

The engine numbers are stamped on a machined pad to begin with and not on a raw, cast surface. Are you referring maybe to early blocks, where the number appears on the right, front pad, behind the timing gear area?

You are incorrect,. Original blocks do not have the boss machined.

[Chris Haynes]

Chris, ...answers to your questions can be made in many ways, -but I will begin here based on personal first-hand experience.

To start, I am a professional engine rebuilder operating a licensed vintage repair business in Tennessee. As such, on many occasions we have been used to professionally verify VINs on out-of-state title transfers. One of the biggest misconceptions many (-like you) have is that beginning in the 1920s, the engine is NOT the VIN. In the case of Ford, the engine number only dictated what the VIN would be for that vehicle when the engine was installed. Ford did this practice of stamping all engines sequentially before sending them to Branches as a method from having errors made when stamping the VIN to the frame. Once the frame was stamped with that same number during assembly, THAT stamping became the VIN. Therefore it is legally accepted by DMV when a legitimate business stamps a subcomponent of that vehicle with a number that was originally assigned to that vehicle. Again, it is considered legal to stamp or restamp under those circumstances. It has also been my experiences that documentation and transparency make this even more lawful in the DMVs eyes.

2nd, many replacement engines do not have any number stamped onto them. As such, stamping that engine to match a documented VIN is accepted by the DMV. Ford had a protocol that allowed his Agencies (Dealerships) to stamp or restamp for this purpose, -and the DMVs and the legal system in most States have recognized and accepted this. I did read your state's 10751 law however there are many areas where that can be challenged in court. It likely should be noted that your experiences involved a State where pragmatic logic is generally pushed aside for bureaucracy. Fortunately for the rest of us, most remaining States use common sense in matters such as this. In my State, any vehicle over 30 years old is basically exempt from your code.

To your comment about how to recreate the texture on the pad, it can be done in several methods. One method is to use a scaler which is often used in welding and stress relieving when doing cast iron repair.

I hate that you were affected by your State's law, and I trust you realize that laws and protocols regarding this do vary greatly from state to state.
[/quote]

It is not just the VIN or Serial Number. It is any part/.
Code, Vehicle Code - VEH § 10751. (a) No person shall knowingly buy, sell, offer for sale, receive, or have in his or her possession, any vehicle, or component part thereof, from which any serial or identification number, including, but not limited to, any number used for registration purposes, that is affixed by the manufacturer to ...

[Jerry VanOoteghem]

So you remove the old number and put on the number you want. How do you plan or recreating the original cast texture of the number boss?

The engine numbers are stamped on a machined pad to begin with and not on a raw, cast surface. Are you referring maybe to early blocks, where the number appears on the right, front pad, behind the timing gear area?

You are incorrect,. Original blocks do not have the boss machined.

The boss around the water inlet is the same boss that the engine number is stamped on. Are you saying that the water inlet is bolted up to an unmachined face? Simply not true.

These all appear to be machined pads...

1.png (271.48 KiB) Viewed 3498 times

[Allan]

Actually, stamping each digit using the same hammer blow will produce mixed results. When stamping the number one in any combination, one should lighten the blow significantly. The imprint displaces far less material than say an eight, so the blow needs to be lighter to compensate. When i have one of these engine numbers to stamp, I generally practice on a piece of scrap first.

Allan from down under.