What lubrication for Original Roller Timer?

[rainer]

Hello.
Because my old Roller Timer is heavily worn out, I organized a replacement one and want to do it right from the beginning.
What lubrication is best directly inside the roller's bore?

Personally I am inclined to spray in some motorcycle chain grease, because it has high adhesion and viscosity. It is also very thin during spraying and quickly thickening later, so it will get better into the roller's bore.

Next in order I would use SAE230 oil as used in the differential. Also of high viscosity so it will stay longer in the bore.

Or SAE40, the normal engine oil I use?


My old timer had deep dents before and after every contract plate in the bacelite ring, and roller + contact plate are rough like sanding paper. Not good, especially after 5 years with low mileage.

[John Codman]

I use whatever is in my squirt oil can. I drain the bottles that held engine (usually) oil into a container that eventually goes into the squirt can. It's oil, it's clean, and so far it seems to work just fine. I like the motorcycle chain oil idea though.

[rainer]

What mileage should a roller timer allow without look like mine?

Tomorrow, after replacing the old timer, I can provide pictures.

Meanwhile I am pretty sure that my temperature problems mostly come from this strong dents inside the timer - besides the stuttering at higher rpm.
The roller will jump when coming out of every dent/groove, this leads into later spark. I learned that later spark causes higher temperature of engine.

[modeltspaz]

When I bought my '26 Touring in 1999, it had a genuine Ford script timer and roller installed. After I got quickly fed-up with the generally crappy performance of the car, I started asking around about what fixes I should perform. The first piece of advice came from the late Frank "Fast Frank" Harris. Boy, do I miss him.

He told me to get a New Day Timer. I found a few at the Turlock Swap Meet that year. When I put that timer on, the difference was unbelievable. I kept the script timer and roller, and to be respectful to the gentleman that I purchased the car from (actually his widow), I placed the timer and roller under the seat, so it's actually still with the car.

The last time I had to service that New Day Timer was about a year ago. All I did was do a minium clean-up on the inner face and replace the brush.

New Day Timers are still available. There have been reproductions, but beware. There were some repops made in a tan colored thermoplastic (melts under heat) material that were marked with a large letter "S" on the outside face. I won't say what S stands for, but I'll leave that up to you. DO NOT BUY ONE OF THOSE! I believe that the quality New Day Timers are being recently reproduced. I highly reccomend one of those.

Mike "modeltspaz" Spaziano.

[TXGOAT2]

Ford recommended 20W oil for the engine and the timer.

[TXGOAT2]

The Ford type roller timer requires a light oil, not grease of any kind.

[Steve Jelf]

Yes, the current New Day repop has a very good reputation.

One knowledgeable T guy (everybody would know the name) packs his Ford roller timer full of grease, and claims that's the way it works best. Of course, when I posted a political opinion on Facebook he called me a fool. FWIW.

[TRDxB2]

Just some thoughts & questions..
Was just wondering if the choice of lubrication has to do with what is believed to need lubrication. The roller mechanism only has two axles, one for the lever arm and the other for the roller itself. So for sure they need lubrication.
The rotation of the roller about the camshaft would cause lube on the roller to be spewed outward within the timer cover. How much would remain?
Too much lubrication between the roller and contact ring could affect proper electrical contact (any form of lubrication should not contain molybdenum or graphite). If a leaking cam seal provides to much lubrication then why fill the timer cavity with grease?

Is there something in the design that would cause parts to receive lubrication when in operation? Perhaps when the engine is shut off a hot engine causes the grease to gravity flow, settle to the bottom of the cover to get spun around & lube everything again. That makes Vaseline sound like a reasonable choice.

[speedytinc]

Oil will puddle behind the lowest edge behind the insulator ring. A little oil added by a non sealed cam will keep the roller & contact surfaces wet.
External oiling as prescribed keeps the roller pin wet. Eventually the oil puddle picks up enough metal powder from contact wear to short out one of the lower contacts to the case. Thus requiring a good cleaning to remove the metallic oil on a regular basis.

[rainer]

Ford recommended 20W oil for the engine and the timer.

Hi, thanks for this information.

Just a final question about lubricating:
When dripping oil into the flip-cap opening, does it reach any important part at all? The roller is at the cylindrical part of the cap, the hole is in the cone. when adding some drops of oil, it will seep down on inner side of the cone and collect behind the bakelite ring.

For sure, there it will help nothing, it does not even get close to any part requiring lubrication.
From my understanding the roller axle and the outer surface of the roller will need oil to reduce wear. The axle lots more than the outer surface.

How is the timer correctly oiled?
The only meaningful idea I get is turning the engine to a position where the roller is at 6:00 o'clock, then I can reach it with the long and thin fip of my oil can. But as it is almost impossible to peek through this little hole, this appears not practical to me.

[speedytinc]

Squiring oil in the flip top cap puts that oil on the roller brush directly.
That oil makes is way to the roller. If started soon after oiling, the oil will get to the roller quicker by centrifugal force.
Yes, having the roller @ 6:00 would be ideal. Perhaps by having/knowing one of the 2 lower contacts firing their respective coils would give you an idea of the roller's exact location.

[rainer]

Just some thoughts & questions..
Was just wondering if the choice of lubrication has to do with what is believed to need lubrication. The roller mechanism only has two axles, one for the lever arm and the other for the roller itself. So for sure they need lubrication.
The rotation of the roller about the camshaft would cause lube on the roller to be spewed outward within the timer cover. How much would remain?
Too much lubrication between the roller and contact ring could affect proper electrical contact (any form of lubrication should not contain molybdenum or graphite). If a leaking cam seal provides to much lubrication then why fill the timer cavity with grease?

Is there something in the design that would cause parts to receive lubrication when in operation? Perhaps when the engine is shut off a hot engine causes the grease to gravity flow, settle to the bottom of the cover to get spun around & lube everything again. That makes Vaseline sound like a reasonable choice.

Well, I guess I somehow destroyed my roller timer within approx. 1000km, but I have no idea, how. (-> therefore I ask here, in hope to find out what I did wrong)

• The roller itself has a huge play on its axle, so either the axle, roller bore, or both is heavily worn out. I can rotate the roller for approx 2-3 degrees!
• The outer surface of the roller is like 60 mesh sand paper.
• The surface of metal plates on contact ring is also like sand paper.
• The Bakelite ring (insulator) has a dent before and after every metal plate, so deep, that you can easily feel it with the finger when sliding over it. It is really deep (or feels like so).
• The brass shim for the felt ring behind the roller arm is loose and flapping around when the timer cap is removed. I don't know it it has to be so loose in this case.

I was really shocked when I found all this damage.

I assume the roller never saw any oil while I dripped in some oil from time to time. This caused this extreme wear. And this in turn causes a bumpy run of the engine when speed is above 40 kph (not mph!!). For sure the roller will jump out of every dent in Bakelite, this results in delayed contact for ignition, and so I actually get a later ignition. Also explains while I drove most of the time with fully advanced spark, also at medium speed.

Now I know that I will open the timer at least twice a year, wipe it clean, and lubricate the roller itself before re-assembly. And I will use lots more oil through the flip-cap opening, hope this will flush away any residue from contact ring. Better too much than too little amount of oil.

[speedytinc]

The new roller timers available in the past,( I cant speak to current production, but I doubt their quality has changed) are/were junk new out of the box. Inside contacts must be perfectly round & centered, they were not. New rollers commonly wear out quickly.
This is why those in the know don't run them. Look @ what the Montana boys run - Anderson's & new days.
My own experimentation has led me to the New Day with a soft carbon brush. I get several thousand miles between cleaning the carbon dust out.
I carry an extra carbon brush in case I get caught with a worn brush on the road.

[rainer]

Too much lubrication between the roller and contact ring could affect proper electrical contact (any form of lubrication should not contain molybdenum or graphite). If a leaking cam seal provides to much lubrication then why fill the timer cavity with grease?

Well, I wouldn't bother about molybdenum. It is non-conducting. Graphite is more critical in my eyes.

Watching how the timer is "sealed" to the engine block, I am pretty sure that anything being liquid cannot collect inside the timer cavity. There is no gasket towards engine block, so oil will always find out from timer cavity.
At least, my timer was literally bone-dry inside, though I regularly put some drops of oil into the timer cavity.

I am a bit concerned about using light weight oil like 20W. Possibly people poured oil in everywhere very generous.
Thin oil will seep out from timer within a couple of hours and then will be no further lubrication any more.
Of course, lots too thick oil can lift the roller (similar to hydroplaning), but even that oil will be squeezed away from contacts after some engine revolutions. In this case I see better chances that some oil will reach the roller axle from time to time. Am I right or wrong?

The danger I see is that thick oil will hold dirt in place.

[DanTreace]

Now I know that I will open the timer at least twice a year, wipe it clean, and lubricate the roller

The roller timer needs routine service if you put miles on your T.

Ford recommended every 200 miles to oil or lube that roller timer, cleaning occasionally too. Many brands of timers were made to help longevity and to reduce maintenance of that key device to fire the plugs.

Remember that at 1000 rpm the timer roller is making 2000 contacts a minute. That is about 30 mph.
1000 rpm crankshaft speed. The cam, which the timer roller is mounted on, turns half of engine speed, 500 revolutions per minute. The timer roller makes 4 contacts in the timer case for every revolution = 2000 contacts per minute. Lots of wear can happened without lubrication.


This roller was causing miss at speed, as surface was worn from debris by poor maintenance.

(spring removed to put on replacement roller)

[rainer]

The new roller timers available in the past,( I cant speak to current production, but I doubt their quality has changed) are/were junk new out of the box. Inside contacts must be perfectly round & centered, they were not. New rollers commonly wear out quickly.
This is why those in the know don't run them. Look @ what the Montana boys run - Anderson's & new days.
My own experimentation has led me to the New Day with a soft carbon brush. I get several thousand miles between cleaning the carbon dust out.
I carry an extra carbon brush in case I get caught with a worn brush on the road.

I have the impression you are talking of timers with sliding contact, as you are talking of brushes?


This is one of the "new" roller timers I got:
It is a little bit rusty inside, but the contact ring is in very good condition, with even, clean and smooth surface. I will use some sanding paper to get out some of this surface rust, then I will paint it a little bit in black before installation (of course, not the contact surface).

This timer looks LOTS better than my old one.

[speedytinc]

The new timer you show seems to have higher edges on the contact edges than the adjacent insulators. This is no good. The inside must be perfectly smooth & centered. Anything less will cause the roller to bounce causing a washboard wear pattern & worse running the higher the RPMs.
Sandpaper wont do it. The timer must be trued in a lathe.

Roller timers need constant attention. Oil before each drive AND every 200 miles if on a long drive.Your description sounds like the timer wasnt oiled enough.

[rainer]

The new timer you show seems to have higher edges on the contact edges than the adjacent insulators. This is no good. The inside must be perfectly smooth & centered. Anything less will cause the roller to bounce causing a washboard wear pattern & worse running the higher the RPMs.
Sandpaper wont do it. The timer must be trued in a lathe.

Roller timers need constant attention. Oil before each drive AND every 200 miles if on a long drive.Your description sounds like the timer wasnt oiled enough.

Hi.

The picture shows that the contacts are a very little bit wider (sideways), but this is out of where the roller is. The inner radius (where the roller is in touch) is smooth, no changes in height.
I will get my lathe finished in 1 week or so, then I will give the timer a little touch from inner side to verify that it is really 100% round.

The washboard wear pattern and what you describe is what my old timer shows.

[Allan]

Rainer, that timer has nice thick metal contacts in the ring. It is a good candidate to be re-machined in a lathe so that you clean up the rust and make the roller track perfectly round.

In my first years of T model ownership I ran the timer packed full of red grease. It worked really well. When I came back to T models in the late 70's I went the same route, but it was not much good. Whether the grease formula was changed in the intervening years I do not know.

My timer of choice now is the Anderson flapper type.

Allan from down under.

[TXGOAT2]

A possible cause of the sandpaper look to the contact surfaces and roller is electrical arcing. One cause for excess arcing could be excess current draw from the coils. Another could be excessively thick lubricant. Worn parts would probably aggravate both arcing and promote rapid further wear. I would expect a Ford type roller timer to perform best and last longest when lubricated and maintained as Ford directed and when run on Magneto most of the time using well adjusted coils.

[greenacres36]

When I used to run a roller timer I would put a handful of red grease in it. Seemed to work really well. I had a timer that oil and metal powder shorted out one of the bottom contacts at one time. That’s a bear to diagnose. Now an itimer for me.

[rainer]

TIMER IS REPLACED,
but what I experienced was a bit weird. I try to describe what I did, let me know if I did something wrong, please.

Replacing the roller:

• Remove the nut and the securing shim for the little pin. The old roller easily could be removed.
• Then I took out the brass cover (for holding the felt ring), No felt ring behind of it.
• I soaked the new felt ring in oil and set it in place, followed by the brass cover. It was impossible to press it so far to the left that the brass gets in touch with the engine block. The brass ship was in a distance of 4 mm ti the engine block.
• So I decided to take it off again, including the felt ring. I used a super sharp blade to cut excess felt (everything higher than the recess in the brass) away. In fact I halved the thickness of felt.
  Now the brass shim was lots closer to the engine block, gap approx. 1mm, so it is within elasticity of brass.
• I inserted the new roller. It was sliding easily, but I noticed that I cannot slide it on the camshaft far enough with my fingers to insert the pin. So I used the nut without the securing shim to press the roller on until I could insert the pin. Then I removed the nut, inserted the securing shim, and finally tightened the nut.
• Finally I attached the wires to the new timer cap and installed it.
• As first lubrication I filled in 10ccm of oil through the flip-plug of timer. I chose so much to fill the recess behind the contact ring. Excess oil will float across the contact ring and seep out between engine and timer cover. Then I cranked the engine some turns to get oil everywhere.

What makes me a bit nervous:
The old timer had no felt behind the brass shim. The shim was flapping at least 5~6 mm back and forth without installed timer cap. Now the center of the roller is causing pressure on the brass shim (because of the added felt). So I see that the hub of the timer arm will rub through the brass very quickly.
I didn't start the engine yet, I want to wait for your answers first. I am close to take off the timer cap and take out the felt. This doesn't look right to me. Or is this correct?

[Humblej]

If you have a modern oil seal for the cam shaft you do not use the felt washer for the timer. What have you got for a seal?

[rainer]

If you have a modern oil seal for the cam shaft you do not use the felt washer for the timer. What have you got for a seal?

Hi, Humblej

It is extremely hard to get a view on the cam shaft. I read that the felt should be inserted into a recess of the engine block. I can feel something hard around the cam shaft pointing towards the timer.
I think this is a modern seal.

I removed the felt washer and now it fits very well.

[TXGOAT2]

Ford recommended a light oil for general timer lubrication. That would correspond to 20W today. For cold weather, an even lighter oil was called for, such as 20W mixed with a little kerosene. Ford also insisted on using a light, high quality oil in the engine. (20W) I have had excellent results adhering to Ford's engine lubrication philosophy. I have not used a roller timer, but if I ever do use one, I will oil it frequently with MARVEL MYSTERY OIL. I suggest reading Ford period literature for information on engine and timer lubrication. Modern multi-grade oils do a fine job in the T engine, with 10W30 being well suited for most conditions. Modern oils do not appear to have any ill effect on the magneto. Given that the roller timer generates some debris when in operation, I would not use second-hand crankcase oil in it.

[TXGOAT2]

A small mechanic's mirror may be useful for inspecting the timer.

[TXGOAT2]

The spring loaded fit between the timer cover and the engine timing cover is very tight, if everything is in good condition. Manipulating the spark lever tends to wear the two parts into a very close fit. Some oil leakage from the timer is probably more good than bad, since leakage will tend to reduce debris in the oil. Ford evidently expected oil to leak from the timer, since the manuals make a point of oiling the timer frequently. What the timer needs is frequent application of clean, light oil. Following the procedure Ford recommended will provide that.

[TXGOAT2]

An original Ford timer will fit properly and work properly if maintained properly. A good reproduction timer will do likewise. It's important that the engine timing cover be properly located relative to the camshaft. If it isn't, several problems will arise, rapid timer wear being one of them.

[Steve Jelf]

Some of us avoid dealing with timer lubrication by using a New Day timer, which is designed to run dry. The New Day repop currently being produced is used by many Model T owners, and they say it's very good.

[TXGOAT2]

A New Day will give excellent results with properly adjusted coils.

[Aussie16]

Yes, the current New Day repop has a very good reputation.

One knowledgeable T guy (everybody would know the name) packs his Ford roller timer full of grease, and claims that's the way it works best. Of course, when I posted a political opinion on Facebook he called me a fool. FWIW.

I wondered if "Grease " would pop up as an alternative! I had many a debate with the man who claimed that packing with grease was best! All it did was create a horrible mess. Yes, I did actuallly try it. What a waste of time.
If using a roller timer, for best service, clean and relubricate after each day of touring or minimal every 100 miles.
Or alternatively got to a brush type ,flapper type or new electronic which will be zero maintenance and 100% reliability. Costly, but my cars are drivers which do regular and long distance tours.
In summary, Roller timers to work well but to continue to operate at their best they require regular maintenance.
Just my thoughts after 40 years of driving Ts.

[Aussie16]

The new roller timers available in the past,( I cant speak to current production, but I doubt their quality has changed) are/were junk new out of the box. Inside contacts must be perfectly round & centered, they were not. New rollers commonly wear out quickly.
This is why those in the know don't run them. Look @ what the Montana boys run - Anderson's & new days.
My own experimentation has led me to the New Day with a soft carbon brush. I get several thousand miles between cleaning the carbon dust out.
I carry an extra carbon brush in case I get caught with a worn brush on the road.

I have the impression you are talking of timers with sliding contact, as you are talking of brushes?


This is one of the "new" roller timers I got:
It is a little bit rusty inside, but the contact ring is in very good condition, with even, clean and smooth surface. I will use some sanding paper to get out some of this surface rust, then I will paint it a little bit in black before installation (of course, not the contact surface).

snap-2025-07-12_00-11.png

This timer looks LOTS better than my old one.

Although this timer might look ok, it is flawed and I would not use it. The insulating rim has a crack in it right under one of the contacts. This creates a perfect location create a short circuit and cause mis firing. If the crack is on the bottom section of the timer, it will be subject to ingress of hot oil and will fail quickly.