Can I test starter with head off

[jwipprecht]

I back at getting a 1919 Center Door running after 77 years in storage. It has the generator and starter options.
At present the head is off, valves out, coilboxes overhauled and also out, carburetor overhauled and out, no battery in, generator out for testing and switch/ammeter out to fix the fact that BAT does not make a connection to COIL. (I know why and how to fix that.) The commutator (timer) is new and on the front of the engine. There is no gasoline in it and the switch is out so MAG is not connected to COIL. I am approaching the point where I believe I have cleaned everything up and new parts on hand and almost ready to reassemble. Before I start reassembly I would like to test the starter, which is still in place, to find out if I need to take that out too. I think I can just ensure the transmission is in neutral, set the brake, connect the starter to a 6V battery and see if the cylinders go up and down. My questions:
1. Could any harm be done by testing the starter like this?
2. Have I missed any preparatory steps?
3. Should I jack up the rear end so the back wheels are off the floor?

John

[speedytinc]

You can remove the starter brush cover to get a sense of the brushes & commuter condition/cleanliness. Possibly spray some brake clean before running.

1) possibly.
If the motor hasnt been run in 77 years, every bearing is bone dry. I would put in fresh oil. Minimum 2 quarts thru the transmission cover on the drums & triple gears. Pour 1/2 quart @ a time to allow the oil to soak into the bands & bushings. Pour the remaining quart & one 1/2 in the front breather cap. Squirt some oil in the 4 cylinders & valve stems. Hand crank to check if free & move the oil around the cylinder walls.

3) to be safe, I would jack up one wheel, chock the fronts & turn over in gear to insure dry triple gear bushings get oil before having to spin as they do in neutral.

[jwipprecht]

Thank you! I have already done what you said to do in 1), including hand cranking. I'll jack up a wheel as you suggested. I'll wait to see if anyone else replies before I try the starter.

John

[big2bird]

Make sure you have 4 qts oil in it, handle crank a few minutes to move the oil, and go ahead.

[Jerry VanOoteghem]

You can certainly "test" the starter with the engine head removed, but it won't be a great test since it won't take much torque at all to spin an engine with no compression. It will tell you whether or not the starter is "dead" or "alive", I suppose, and if the bendix will engage. It won't tell you if the starter has the power to turn over an engine with normal compression, however. In short, an interesting test, but really conclusive of very little.

As to the pre-lube advice, oiling the cylinder bores and making sure that they're free of surface rust is a must, but you're not going to hurt anything else by running the starter for 5 seconds.

[jwipprecht]

In addition to the other things I did to prepare for the starter test, I took the timer off. I did this because I had previously removed the generator, and without the brace that goes from the generator mount to the timer and holds the timer in place it was just sitting there loosely. I didn’t have to remove wires or anything, I just took it off and set it down on the frame. I activated the solenoid (I installed) and … nothing. So, I’ll have to pull the generator. At least there’s continuity through it from the post on it to the car. I know I can crank it.

[NoelChico]

If the engine bearings are all dry, does oil get to the rod bearings with just spinning the crank, assuming no scoops but oil in the dips? What about the piston pins and bushings? Oil to the main bearings? I'm inclined to pull the inspection pan and squirt oil UP to those places, but I'm not a real Model T mechanic.

[John kuehn]

Since you have the head off pour some light oil in the cylinders. Drain the engine oil and put in some fresh oil as others have said. Get the engine to turn with the hand crank first. If the engine is still stuck jack up the front end engage the hand crank in a horizontal position and place a block or jack under it while it’s engaged. Remove any jacks or jack stands and let the full weight of the car rest on the hand crank jack.
Let the weight of the car push the hand crank up to hopefully get the engine free. You may need to let it sit up a day or two for the engine to free up.

THEN use the starter to turn the engine to lube it up.

[Jerry VanOoteghem]

Was it stated anywhere that the engine was stuck?

[jwipprecht]

The engine is not stuck. Underneath is beautiful and well oiled. The cylinders and and intakes and exhaust ports were caked with baked on carbon. I had already cleaned all that off and now the top of the engine is beautiful too.
Since the starter does not work, and if I can't get it overhauled soon, I'll use the crank. I know how to hold it properly to avoid injury. There was only a remnant of a spring on the crank - the spring that makes the crank pop out of the engine once it starts. It appeared to me that the way to get the spring on was to take the "ratchet," that engages with engine, off and then I could slide the new spring on. I read a few posts about the pin that holds the ratchet (thank you posters). Mine had the pin with a cotter pin. The cotter pin came out easily but the pin only came out with applications of penetrating oil and a center punch. The posts I read mentioned no problems getting the ratchet off, but mine would not budge no matter what I did. I was able to wind the spring onto the shaft of the crank. However, instead of popping the ratchet out of the engine, the spring just slid down the curve of the crank. Now the last quarter inch or so of the end of the spring farthest from the engine was bent at a right angle. What was that for? Upon close inspection of the shaft near the curve I saw a small ( about 1/32") stub. I tried putting the bent end of the spring against that stub but it wouldn't stay. Then I had an idea. I got a firm grip on that stub with a pair of pliers and pulled and out came the last piece of the former spring. With the same pliers I pushed the the bent end of the spring into the hole, which held the spring, which popped the ratchet out easily. Success! Luckily I had wound the spring onto the handle the right way.

[TXGOAT2]

If you need to remove the starter, read up on the correct procedure to follow when removing it. It's easy to damage the magneto coils if you don't do it right, and you DO NOT want to do that. It would be best to send the starter to one of the starter rebuilders who do Model T starters and who have the tools, parts, and a test bench to do it right. When tightening or removing the starter cable nut, always use two wrenches, one to hold the hut under the cable terminal so it can't turn, and the other to remove or tighten the nut that holds the cable terminal.

[Jerry VanOoteghem]

Just wipe down the cylinders with some oil and turn the engine over, either by hand, or with a repaired starter. You will hurt nothing...

[TXGOAT2]

I would do exactly as Ford recommended when putting a new car into service.

[Steve Jelf]

The crank has a small hole near the first bend. The little bend at the front end of the spring fits into that hole like this.