Model T Transmission rebuild, The Way We Do It

Discuss all things Model T related.
Forum rules
If you need help logging in, or have question about how something works, use the Support forum located here Support Forum
Complete set of Forum Rules Forum Rules
User avatar

Topic author
JWalters
Posts: 102
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 6:34 pm
First Name: Jason
Last Name: Walters
Location: Missouri
Board Member Since: 2000

Model T Transmission rebuild, The Way We Do It

Post by JWalters » Sat Feb 02, 2019 2:38 am

This is a great post from the old forum I think would interest those that have not seen it.



By Kohnke Rebabbitting on Saturday, July 20, 2013 - 07:01 pm:



The Brake drum was shot, so we ordered one from J&M Machine, Oh, what a Beauty, in every way.

I started taking pictures today, and will add more as I progress, as if I wait, it will take a long time to get them all listed.


Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

This is a Jig I made, to align Ream the Tail shaft bushing, as out of Ford Service.

Image

Align Reaming Tail Shaft Bushing

Image

Triple Gear Reamer, Wilson Benches coming. First one is a starter and Gen. table, I have Two.

Image

Image

Image

Image

Showing Reamer Finish.

Image

Image

Parts Ready to Machine

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Pictures Showing Dial points

Image

Image

Image

Showing center Point that was making the shaft off center, I cleaned it up, and it centered

Image

Hose clamp to hold the fingers back

Image

Centering brake drum in 4 Jaw

Image

Image

Image

Image

Brake drum, Tail Shaft, and also Main shaft now in perfect Alginment



Got the Triple Gear pins in the mail today, and have to polish out .000-50 thousandths on the bearing part of the pin.

I will have to take .001 thousandths off the part that press's into the flywheel.

That will leave a .003 thousandths press on the pins, and a .003 clearance on the Gear Bushing.


Image

Polishing Triple Gear Pins to size.

The 1.560 is how far back I cut the tail shaft for the Ball cap, no matter if it is ball bearing, or babbitt. This motor will get babbitt.

I will polish out the tail shaft tomorrow, and cut the ball cap.


Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

By the way, that clamp and switch is my automatic shut off switch.

Image

Image

Image

Polished, before polishing

Image

Can still see the lines after the 1500 grit, but can't with the finger nail.

Image

Aligning the ball cap at the only place that comes close to the center every time.

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Ruffed out babbitt at high speed, .020 left to go.

Image

If you want something that gets right to the 1/10 of a thousandths every time, these are what will do it. They are call inside Mic's, or also Post Mic's.

Image

Image

Putting in the oil groove.

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Made for pressing out the pins, but normally I just take a big hammer and knock them out.

Image

Image

I oil the pins. I use a dead blow to tap them in.

Image

Image

I use 1/2 of a Model T wrist pin to push the pin to level.

Image

Image

I use 1/4 inch coarse X 2" bolts and tap the flywheel.

Image

My boy made this to use flywheels on.

Image

It goes up, down, and turns so you can work on the Magnets, or what I am doing.

Image

Image

Image

I hold a big hammer under the bolt to take the stress of the threads when peening.

Image

Small taps, no big hits.

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Oil the inside of the gear and shaft

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image



A couple of things here.

After you press on the driven gear, it just about always makes the brake drum bushing go smaller, and from the two keys pushing in on the bushing that you should always run the reamer through again to size the hole where it was.



The other thing is the clutch spring pin should be cleaned up so the pin can be placed by hand, instead of having to pound it in.



Image

Band Building

We media blast, "Black Diamond", no dirt, make sure there is nothing caught under the end that is riveted on. clean, clean, clean.




Image

As they come out of the box.

Image

I mark an inch.

Image

I use a metal shears to cut the 1 inch off.

Image

Cut off.

Image

What I use to seal the ends from raveling, way better then what was on them out of the box.

Image

Image

I spray on a slick paper, so it don't soak in so fast, or wax paper.

Image

3 Pieces cut in 1/2.

Image

This is two coats.

Image

Image

K.R. Wilson rivet machine.

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Check to make sure bands match drums.

Image

Rivet seated on the inside.

Image

Image

The ends of the bands out further then the band ears, so they don't gouge the drum surface.

Image

Image

Image

Transmission assembly:

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image



By Kohnke Rebabbitting on Sunday, July 21, 2013 - 03:40 pm:

I always check the drums with expanding mandrels to see where the out sides are with the center, and that is with out bushings.



The first time I knew the center was right, as I check, and recheck, and found out with the mandrel, that the drum was sprung a little, and that is a waste of time, and bushings.



If the drum is sprung, which isn't too often, but happens, I pitch the drum.



The drums that the out sides were cut, or out of round with the center, they do go in a 4 Jaw, and get the bushing shaft with gear centered and bored to within a .001



Then they go in the Wilson jig and centered on the reamer taper, locked down, and the last .001 is reamed with the hole, and Jig.

The out side band area does not touch, or do you want it to.



I have had I think 3 re-rebuilds that I had to do this way, other wise, its normal.



Then the out side is trued again, and no I don't have to take off a 1/4 inch.



Thanks Herm.



By Kohnke Rebabbitting on Sunday, July 21, 2013 - 05:50 pm:

I have almost 3 sets of reamers. Two sets were were N.O.S..



So far I have used both sets, and sharpened both sets once when it gets time.



Counting just transmissions, I should have done about 350 to 400.



I don't use them dry, as I use cutting oil on the bushings.



You have to check the reamer under a big Mag. Glass, to see if there is any reflection of light of the edge that cuts. If there is, that's the time to sharpen, or you can ruin the reamer.



When you sharpen a reamer, they only sharpen the taper part, if they have to sharpen the side, they some times can do it once, a very little, or the hole size gets smaller.



While they would still bore straight, you would have to finish with a hone, or a different reamer of some kind.



By Kohnke Rebabbitting on Tuesday, July 23, 2013 - 11:24 pm:



The first drum had .018 thousandths taken off.

The second one, .011-50 to .012.

I would have taken more if needed.



To just polish a pitted, wore, and warped drum O.D. is not rebuilding.

High and low spots on drums give bad band surface. It seamed important enough when they were new.

I have always turned the drums, and would never put a Transmission together with out it.



They were rust pitted, and the drums are just about always not true from band wear.

Trueing them makes them round to the center, and a 100% band contact.

To me, with out Trueing the drums would be like putting on New brake shoes, and not true the drums, that makes every thing New again.

The only drum I didn't turn was J&M Machines New brake drum, as it dialed Zero.



By Andre Valkenaers on Thursday, July 25, 2013 - 02:06 am:

Herm, Why do you use only one bushing on the brake drum??



Thanks Herm



Andre

Belgium



By Kohnke Rebabbitting on Thursday, July 25, 2013 - 01:12 pm:

Andre, I leave them out because they are not needed. Ford left them out in late 1925, and later.



The only way the oil gets into the Brake Drum bushings is the hole in the Drum shaft, or what can get in the ends of the bushings.



With the inside bushing left out, that whole cavity from the Driven Gear, to the Drive Plate bushing is oiled, and acts as an oil well.



It is also harder to Align 3 bearings, rather than two.



With 2 Bearings you can bore them separate, as long as they are straight with the housings, but with 3 or more, they have to be align Bored, or align reamed.



Image

Image



By Chris Brancaccio - Calgary Alberta on Thursday, July 25, 2013 - 02:32 pm:

Herm, do you balance the drums?



How is the balance on the new J&M drum?



By Kohnke Rebabbitting on Thursday, July 25, 2013 - 03:33 pm:

Chris, We have the drums Balanced if the owner wants it.



But we always balance the Flywheel.



We have had only one Balanced from J&M Machine. It was off a little, but so are the Originals, and a lot more. They sure have the Originals beat by far. I don't think you could cast a piece like that and get any kind of balance.



Every thing is balanced from the wheels on out modern car to air craft parts.



By Stephen D Heatherly on Thursday, July 25, 2013 - 10:07 pm:

Herm, do you always replace all the bushings or just the worn out ones? I have heard several times that replacing the bushings makes for a noisy transmission but, I would think as long as everything was done right there would be no problem.



Stephen



By Kohnke Rebabbitting on Friday, July 26, 2013 - 12:42 am:

Stephen, I have never taken a Transmission apart, that was good enough to just clean up, and put back together, for my own, or a customer.



The transmissions will run wore out, if not to bad, as will the rest of the motor.



The problem comes in when the bushings wear to much, and then start taking out the gears on a drum, or triple gear that could have been saved.



If the triple gears are left go to long, with .004 thousandths, on up, and as all triple gear pressure is to the outside, the gear will run tipped on the shaft, and the teeth will eat into the flywheel, and ruin the gear surface, and or the flywheel.



As far as the noise, I have never heard one any different then another, outside of the ones that need fixed.



If you have grinding, scraping, knocking, ect., something was over looked.



Many transmissions are left with the old triple gear pins. A typical triple gear pin is .002 thousandths out of round, and it is always on the high pressure side on the gear. So, if you fit the new bushing with .003 to the largest diameter, with wear of .002 at its lowest, now the clearance is .005, and the triple gear has no choice, but to run cocked.



So, when the triple gear runs cocked, it will tear up the teeth on the driven gear, and the drums.



The last thing, when I get time, I will take some Mic readings on my N.O.S. drums and triple gears, as they are factory reamed, and that should put to rest the difference of opinion on what the clearances should be, as these will be Ford factory Spec's.



By Andre Valkenaers on Saturday, August 03, 2013 - 01:36 am:

I just Wonder:

Why do you cut the band lining in half and are you leaving a gap in the middle of the lining? Is this for a better cooling and oiling of the bands??

What is the red stuff you add on the bands at each end??



This real a great writing and should be saved in a manuel.

Thanks



Andre

Belgium



By Kohnke Rebabbitting on Saturday, August 03, 2013 - 01:03 pm:

Andre, I read about the band lining method in a Dykes automotive book when I was a kid. It made sense, so I have always done it that way.



It leaves a one inch gap at the bottom for oiling.



With out the stiffness in that missing band area, the band is left to be able to flex more so all the band will contact at all the band, not just some areas.



The bands as they come out of the box do not have enough goop on some ends to keep them from raveling.



There is already a picture of this, but this is red electrical insulation paint which I get at an electric motor shop.

Image

Thanks Herm.

User avatar

andrefordt
Posts: 125
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 12:25 pm
First Name: Andre
Last Name: Valkenaers
Location: Scherpenheuvel
MTFCA Number: 23792
MTFCI Number: 19330

Re: Model T Transmission rebuild, The Way We Do It

Post by andrefordt » Sat Feb 02, 2019 3:01 am

I have saved this in my Model T files in 2013 and try to do this each time I rebuild a transmission. It is always a succes and as you drive the car you really feel the difference. Just great and the right way to do this . It should be in a book or at least an article in the Vintage.

Thanks again.

Andre
Belgium


Tom Hicks
Posts: 763
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 12:07 pm
First Name: Thomas
Last Name: Hicks
Location: Chesterfield, VA
MTFCA Number: 32518

Re: Model T Transmission rebuild, The Way We Do It

Post by Tom Hicks » Sat Feb 02, 2019 3:08 am

Wow, no wonder transmission rebuild is not cheap.

The ball cap has an oil hole. Does that hole go to the top, or the bottom?
Technology, the solution to all of our problems... and the cause of most of them.


kerry
Posts: 210
Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2019 2:42 pm
First Name: Frank
Last Name: van Ekeren
Location: Rosedale Vic Australia

Re: Model T Transmission rebuild, The Way We Do It

Post by kerry » Sat Feb 02, 2019 3:37 am

To the top Tom.

User avatar

John Warren
Posts: 478
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 12:18 pm
First Name: John
Last Name: Warren
Location: Henderson, Nevada

Re: Model T Transmission rebuild, The Way We Do It

Post by John Warren » Sat Feb 02, 2019 9:54 am

Herm knows what he is doing, Thanks for re-posting.
24-28 TA race car, 26 Canadian touring, 25 Roadster pickup, 14 Roadster, and 11AB Maxwell runabout
Keep it simple and keep a good junk pile if you want to invent something :P

User avatar

Topic author
JWalters
Posts: 102
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 6:34 pm
First Name: Jason
Last Name: Walters
Location: Missouri
Board Member Since: 2000

Re: Model T Transmission rebuild, The Way We Do It

Post by JWalters » Sat Feb 02, 2019 3:29 pm

andrefordt wrote:
Sat Feb 02, 2019 3:01 am
I have saved this in my Model T files in 2013 and try to do this each time I rebuild a transmission. It is always a success and as you drive the car you really feel the difference. Just great and the right way to do this . It should be in a book or at least an article in the Vintage.

Thanks again.

Andre
Belgium
Andre, I agree it would make a great article.

User avatar

Topic author
JWalters
Posts: 102
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 6:34 pm
First Name: Jason
Last Name: Walters
Location: Missouri
Board Member Since: 2000

Re: Model T Transmission rebuild, The Way We Do It

Post by JWalters » Sat Feb 02, 2019 11:39 pm

andrefordt wrote:
Sat Feb 02, 2019 3:01 am
I have saved this in my Model T files in 2013 and try to do this each time I rebuild a transmission. It is always a succes and as you drive the car you really feel the difference. Just great and the right way to do this . It should be in a book or at least an article in the Vintage.

Thanks again.

Andre
Belgium
Andre, Did you try the transmission band linings cut in half like Herm does? If so do you think it offers any improvement over a solid lining? Thanks

User avatar

andrefordt
Posts: 125
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 12:25 pm
First Name: Andre
Last Name: Valkenaers
Location: Scherpenheuvel
MTFCA Number: 23792
MTFCI Number: 19330

Re: Model T Transmission rebuild, The Way We Do It

Post by andrefordt » Sun Feb 03, 2019 1:59 am

Yes I do, and it is as Herm say.
It give better grip on the drum and seams to get better cooling and much more oil on the drums. I only didn't cut the gap 1 inch but 1.5cm.
It was a little hard to find the product to finish the ends here but that is done too.

Again Thanks to Herm to share his experience with us.

Andre
Belgium

User avatar

Topic author
JWalters
Posts: 102
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 6:34 pm
First Name: Jason
Last Name: Walters
Location: Missouri
Board Member Since: 2000

Re: Model T Transmission rebuild, The Way We Do It

Post by JWalters » Mon Feb 04, 2019 12:31 pm

Thanks Andre,
It makes good sense. I will try my bands like that the next time I have it taken apart. :D


RBrooks
Posts: 4
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 7:23 pm
First Name: Randy
Last Name: Brooks
Location: Knoxville TN

Re: Model T Transmission rebuild, The Way We Do It

Post by RBrooks » Mon Feb 04, 2019 10:05 pm

Very informative with good pictures! Thanks for the repost.

User avatar

Topic author
JWalters
Posts: 102
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 6:34 pm
First Name: Jason
Last Name: Walters
Location: Missouri
Board Member Since: 2000

Re: Model T Transmission rebuild, The Way We Do It

Post by JWalters » Wed Feb 06, 2019 9:36 am

RBrooks wrote:
Mon Feb 04, 2019 10:05 pm
Very informative with good pictures! Thanks for the repost.
Herm has shared a lot of good information with us.

User avatar

Topic author
JWalters
Posts: 102
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 6:34 pm
First Name: Jason
Last Name: Walters
Location: Missouri
Board Member Since: 2000

Re: Model T Transmission rebuild, The Way We Do It

Post by JWalters » Thu Feb 14, 2019 9:02 pm

.

User avatar

Topic author
JWalters
Posts: 102
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 6:34 pm
First Name: Jason
Last Name: Walters
Location: Missouri
Board Member Since: 2000

Re: Model T Transmission rebuild, The Way We Do It

Post by JWalters » Sun Feb 24, 2019 7:13 am

.

User avatar

GrandpaFord
Posts: 48
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 2:46 pm
First Name: Neil
Last Name: Kaminar
Location: Mebane, North Carolina
MTFCI Number: 22425

Re: Model T Transmission rebuild, The Way We Do It

Post by GrandpaFord » Sun Feb 24, 2019 9:04 am

I see you used a safety wire on the screw that retains the clutch hub instead of a cotter pin. Why? Is there a chance that the wire could work its way up and become loose?
Screen Shot 2019-02-24 at 8.49.38 AM.png
Screen Shot 2019-02-24 at 8.49.38 AM.png (253.71 KiB) Viewed 1749 times


autotran
Posts: 1
Joined: Wed Mar 06, 2019 10:10 am
First Name: David
Last Name: Edwards
Location: Boston Area

Re: Model T Transmission rebuild, The Way We Do It

Post by autotran » Wed Mar 06, 2019 10:30 am

I am not a T member or owner but would like some info about the "Modern Clutch" article written by Bruce McCalley in the Jan/Feb 1970 (Vol 5, Number 1) issue. The clutch hub used must have been a 1957-63 Dynaflow one as that is the only one that could accept the Raybestos D26324 clutches. The last Cadillac Hydramatic that would accept these clutches is the 1955 one. If anyone ever did this modification where were you able to purchase the D26324 clutches or its replacement? Raybestos must have sold them up to at least 1970 as that is when the article was written. Theses clutches were flat red waffles, 5-5/16" (5.312") OD X aprox. .077" thick with 51 splines on the inside. (The Buick Dynaflow clutches are identical but are .098" thick instead). Raybestos sells nothing close to this .077" thickness today. Thanks for any help you might be able to gave me. Dave Edwards DBA AutoTran www.autotran.us autotran5@aol.com
PS: This is the only article I have ever found or seen that mentions the D26324 part number.

Here is the original article if you do not have that issue: The pictures are missing.
MODERN CLUTCH GREATLY IMPROVES THE MODEL T TRANSMISSION
Another Model T modification by Ellis Gray
Text and photos by Bruce McCalley
Those of you who live in the colder sections of
the Country have no doubt cursed the ‘won’t-let-go’
clutch in the Model T Ford. All of us, at one time
or another, have jacked up a rear wheel in an attempt
to defeat the stiffness of a cold engine. Do what
you will, the Model T clutch was designed to hold,
not to release.
There are a number of Fords around now which
can be started in the morning by spinning the crank
a few times with the choke out, climbing into the
driver’s seat and turning the ignition switch to
“battery. ” No kidding! The clutch works so well
that the engine can be “rocked” under compression
after standing all night! Not only does it release,
it also locks up and won’t slip under any load.
How is this done? By installing a modern clutch.
How? Read on -
The secret is to replace the stock Ford disk
clutch assembly with a modern G.M. Hydromatic
unit from a 1960 to 1968 Buick. (The same assembly
from a Cadillac of the same period might be used but
the Buick unit is stronger. The hub of the Buick is
steel; the Cadillac, cast iron.) When installed, only
an expert would realize that the transmission was
anything but stock - even if he was changing the
bands.
You will need a set of steel clutch plates and
the hub from the Hydromatic transmission and a set
of heavy duty lined plates (Raybestos No. D26324).
The conversion can be done in any shop which has
a lathe, a drill press and welding equipment.
The standard Ford main shaft is milled to fit the
splines on the new hub. While a milling machine
might do the job easier, the proper cutter in your
drill press can be used. The rear surface of the hub
is turned down so that the hub will slide in far enough
to prevent one of the clutch plates from falling
behind. The front is chamfered to allow the Ford
tail piece to seat properly
The Ford brake drum is drilled to accept three
hardened steel pins which engage the outer edges
of the steel clutch plates. These pins are threaded
on each end and are held in the brake drum with
self-locking nuts. One advantage regarding the brake
drum: you won’t have to worry about the wear on
the bosses which held the original clutch plates.
They are no longer used. In addition, two small
pins are installed in the drum to aid in lining the
unit up during assembly. These pins mate with
holes drilled in the tail piece.
The tail piece is modified by brazing three lugs
in place and then drilling them to match the three
studs which have been installed in the brake drum.
The Ford pressure plate (ring) is modified by
brazing in a ring and then resurfacing it to match
the new clutch plates.
After a trial assembly, a groove is machined
in the main shaft to accept a retaining ring which
holds the new drum in place. (This groove has not
been cut in the shaft in the illustrations; the clip
is shown.
Assembly is similar to the original. Use a steel
plate first and alternate steel and lined plates
as needed. When assembled, the only evidence of
change visible will be the three nuts on the studs
which pass through the tail piece.
One word of caution: Be sure the clutch spring
is good (not ‘soft’) and replace if necessary. The
lined plates cannot stand slippage; will burn if they
are allowed to slip. The clutch is adjusted in the
normal manner.
This modification was conceived and executed
by Ellis Gray, who you may remember built the
overhead cam Rajo featured in the July-August
issue of The Vintage Ford. Ellis also designed the
ball bearing rear end conversion described some
time ago. Ellis stressed to the author that he is
not looking for conversion jobs. He has more than
enough to do now

User avatar

RustyFords
Posts: 745
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 11:16 am
First Name: Don
Last Name: Allen
Location: Houston, TX
MTFCA Number: 50001

Re: Model T Transmission rebuild, The Way We Do It

Post by RustyFords » Wed Mar 06, 2019 10:47 am

That sure is some pretty work.

Thanks for posting.
1924 Touring


Bill Kerndt
Posts: 9
Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2019 5:26 pm
First Name: Bill
Last Name: Kerndt
Location: Waukon, Iowa

Re: Model T Transmission rebuild, The Way We Do It

Post by Bill Kerndt » Wed Mar 06, 2019 11:30 am

Enjoy this every time I read it. Herm did an outstanding job on this article and I thank him again. Bill Kerndt


Kohnke Rebabbitting
Posts: 104
Joined: Sat Jan 26, 2019 3:12 pm
First Name: Herman
Last Name: Kohnke
Location: Clare, Iowa

Re: Model T Transmission rebuild, The Way We Do It

Post by Kohnke Rebabbitting » Thu Mar 07, 2019 12:14 am

grandpaford wrote:
Sun Feb 24, 2019 9:04 am
I see you used a safety wire on the screw that retains the clutch hub instead of a cotter pin. Why? Is there a chance that the wire could work its way up and become loose?

Screen Shot 2019-02-24 at 8.49.38 AM.png

I have taken at least 500 Transmissions apart, and rebuilt them. many the key would allow the set screw to move, back and fourth, a 1/4 to a 1/2 turn before the key would stop the set screw from going any further. The moving set screw had taken out the Disc Drum and set screw threads, and the rounded set screw end, and main shaft hole, other wise parts would have been still usable.

So I started using Bailing Wire, not light wire, you want to send a Man.

Thanks,

Herm.

Post Reply Previous topicNext topic