Internal oiling system - quite ingenious or?

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Terry_007
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Internal oiling system - quite ingenious or?

Post by Terry_007 » Mon Feb 03, 2020 8:26 pm

A bunch of us from the Colonial Model T club convened last weekend for our 1st meeting/tech session of the year. We went to the home of a new member who asked for help looking at his current 15 project. He had purchased a "rebuilt" engine from someone out west and had it shipped to him and he was anxious to pull the head, pan, and hogshead to see what it looked like inside.

Here is what we found when we tried to pull the pan -
First, it was plumbed with some copper tubing, supplying oil(theoretically) to each of the main bearing caps. There was no internal oil distribution tube, but also had dippers on the ends of the rod caps. Those internal copper oil lines were plumbed to the front of the pan so all three caps got oil. It resembled a pressurized system, however there was no oil pump. There was a slit cut in the deepest part of the pan at the flywheel end and an external pipe had been brazed on so that "theoretically" oil would splash round, get splashed into that slit in the pan, and carried by that external tubing back to the front of the pan where it would be distributed to the three bearing caps. Lots of nice work and pretty copper and brass, but it just doesn't seem to me that it would work well as there is no pressure to force the oil through the external tube to the front and then to the bearing caps.

Is this someone's ingenuity in action? A frustrated plumber working on an old car? A genius in disguise?
None of us have every seen anything quite like this before and we all wondered if anyone out there in T-land had a similar system? Was it something someone created or a kit that could be purchased?

We want to advise the guy restoring the car how to proceed. Should he remove everything and go with the old standard internal oil tube? Put it all back together and hope it works? If the plumbing is removed, how do you recommend dealing with the holes left in the bearing caps? They do go all the way through the bearing material in the caps. Would just leaving them open provide some extra oiling capability perhaps?

Anticipating additional questions - the rest of the engine looks pretty decent, although the bearing caps were not torqued really tight, after removing them, they all look good according to the owner. Valves need to be lapped in and cleaned up, it has old cast iron pistons in it, crank weights look well installed (although I personally have no experience using them). Transmission was done well, new redone mag assembly, It was reported to have been a rebuild with just a few miles on it.
Attachments
Model T Oil System front of pan.jpg
Model T Oil System tubing.jpg
Model T Oil System external tube.jpg


Topic author
Terry_007
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Re: Internal oiling system - quite ingenious or?

Post by Terry_007 » Wed Feb 05, 2020 11:06 am

Very surprised there have not been any responses yet on this. Anyone out there in T-land ever seen this kind of set-up before? Still wondering how to best advise the guy who owns it.
Thanks,
Terry - and the rest of the Colonial Va Chapter guys who are also wondering.


Kenny Edmondson
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Re: Internal oiling system - quite ingenious or?

Post by Kenny Edmondson » Wed Feb 05, 2020 11:13 am

From the pictures, I can’t see where it would do anything. Is there a pump I’m missing or does the contraption defy gravity in some manner?


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Re: Internal oiling system - quite ingenious or?

Post by Scott_Conger » Wed Feb 05, 2020 11:24 am

Terry

I won't comment on anything regarding the plumbing job, but will comment on your question as to whether leaving the bearing cap holes open will provide for more oiling. Answer: No.

There actually IS pressure in the bearing as designed by Ford, with an oil reservoir on top and the crank spinning to create a hydro-dynamic wedge in the bearing which will lift the crank OFF of the cap when running. If there is a hole in the cap, where the pressurized wedge is at it's highest pressure, well, there won't be any high pressure. You'll have premature bearing failure.

After looking at this graphic, ask yourself if a hole at "6 o'clock" seems like a good idea:

Hydrodynamic Lubrication.jpg
Hydrodynamic Lubrication.jpg (13.22 KiB) Viewed 1738 times

I think in your heart, you already know what to do with this engine.
Scott Conger

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Les Schubert
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Re: Internal oiling system - quite ingenious or?

Post by Les Schubert » Wed Feb 05, 2020 11:26 am

After studying the pictures and descriptions I REALLY like the design and execution!!
The “pickup” would get a LOT of oil pushed at it from the flywheel.
I might just decide to copy it.
Thank you for the posting


Les Schubert
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Re: Internal oiling system - quite ingenious or?

Post by Les Schubert » Wed Feb 05, 2020 11:28 am

If you decide to follow Scott’s advice then I am quite interested in taking it off your hands


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Re: Internal oiling system - quite ingenious or?

Post by Les Schubert » Wed Feb 05, 2020 11:31 am

This is not to say that Scott’s discussion isn’t 100% accurate from our engineering school studies, but there are other factors at play.
I will leave it at that


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Re: Internal oiling system - quite ingenious or?

Post by Kenny Edmondson » Wed Feb 05, 2020 11:42 am

The simpler solution would be to run a pipe off of the starter drive cover (bendix) to distribution pipes. If you don’t think much oil gets to that cover, leave it loose once.


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Re: Internal oiling system - quite ingenious or?

Post by Scott_Conger » Wed Feb 05, 2020 11:48 am

There is no doubt that the flywheel will move a lot of oil and create pressure. This isn't the first time I've seen a similar set up. Without an internal oil line to the front of the motor, the bulk of the motor will still be starved of oil, while the mains DO recieve oil. That in itself is a fundamental flaw in the execution of the existing design, if the description of "no internal oiler" is as I understand it. If I am misinterpreting the pictures and there is somehow a line going to the timing gears or front of the engine, then there is oil going where it belongs (perhaps the first picture is indicitave of that)...in that case, oiling would be complete.

My only advice was for one specific question which I do, of course stand by, that being, if the device is removed, the mains must be plugged.
Scott Conger

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AZTerry
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Re: Internal oiling system - quite ingenious or?

Post by AZTerry » Wed Feb 05, 2020 1:00 pm

Do you have or can you get a photo of the oil pickup on the inside of the pan? I am curios if there is just a slit in the pan for the oil to enter or if there is a scoop over the slit.


StanHowe
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Re: Internal oiling system - quite ingenious or?

Post by StanHowe » Wed Feb 05, 2020 3:51 pm

I've made a couple setups similar to that over the years. Those of you who remember my yellow speedster could have seen the pickup on the side of the flywheel housing part of the pan. It would blow oil out the front of the delivery pipe at anything just above idle. Its been a long time but I'm thinking a gallon a minute with the cap off the end. More than we thought it would for sure. I also did an internal plumbing to the timing gears but no plumbing to the mains or rods. I drill the rods from the top and countersink a small depression to hold oil. Worked pretty well, I guess, I never lost a rod.

After that engine exploded and ended up on the scrap heap I did another one with a BIG pipe coming off the top of the hogshead with a pipe into the timing gear housing so it sprayed oil right on the timing gears and kept them lubed. That engine had a Matco mag drive on it. Worked like a charm. Again, no pipes to the main like they show, but a fitting in the side of the block at each of the main bearing bolts drilled into a reduced diameter main bolt with a hole drilled from that chamber to the main bearings. Oil flowed from the pickup tube to the distributing tube to both the center and front main as well as the fitting to the gear chamber. I had a glass tube sight gauge on the pan, you could see the level drop when ti was flowing oil to the front.

Wish I had some pictures.


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Re: Internal oiling system - quite ingenious or?

Post by Les Schubert » Wed Feb 05, 2020 4:58 pm

If you look at the first picture you will notice that the connection inside the front of the pan is in fact a T fitting. So PLENTY of oil will be dumped into the dip tray to be sprayed around inside the crankcase. Personally I would probably install a orfice (maybe 1/8” diameter) to ensure that plenty of oil under pressure gets to the main bearings.
On another note is the Dunn counterweights;
Personally I like them and have been running them in my 27 roadster since 1978, BUT they are a BEAR to install and avoid warping the crank!!
I would suggest undoing the centre main and install a dial indicator and make sure that the crank isn’t bowed. As I say I LIKE them if done right!!


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Re: Internal oiling system - quite ingenious or?

Post by Les Schubert » Wed Feb 05, 2020 5:05 pm

I would really like to see a picture of the oil pickup area
I guess upon reflection I would certainly consider adding a oil filter if I built a copy (and a oil pressure gauge). I would guess that a 10 psi gauge would be a good starting point


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Re: Internal oiling system - quite ingenious or?

Post by Scott_Conger » Wed Feb 05, 2020 7:08 pm

Les

I've been thinking about this off/on and agree that I'd put a gauge on also if I were to go through the exercise, though I was guessing that it would ultimately put out 2-3psi, so you're probably at a good starting point with a 10lb gauge.

From what I've read, I think you're the guy to take this to a good experimental conclusion with a well thought out arrangement. This set-up looks good right up to the interior plumbing and then the execution falls apart in my eyes.
Scott Conger

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John Warren
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Re: Internal oiling system - quite ingenious or?

Post by John Warren » Wed Feb 05, 2020 8:25 pm

As far as the outside oiler I did something similar. I drilled through the engine mount inline with the ring gear and brazed in a fitting. then on the front of the pan I drilled and tapped another fitting then installed a clear hose so I could see if it actually worked. 3/8" pipe fittings and 1/2" hose. It does run 1/2 full on a pretty good clip. It looks like its moving a quart of oil in about 15 sec. If you take the oil filler cap off while running it will spray out a mist. I like the way the pipe was done.
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Terry_007
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Re: Internal oiling system - quite ingenious or?

Post by Terry_007 » Wed Feb 05, 2020 10:12 pm

Les Schubert wrote:
Wed Feb 05, 2020 5:05 pm
I would really like to see a picture of the oil pickup area
I guess upon reflection I would certainly consider adding a oil filter if I built a copy (and a oil pressure gauge). I would guess that a 10 psi gauge would be a good starting point
It'll be another couple of weeks before I'm able to get over and get any more photos. Will try to get some and post, unless he dismantles the set-up by then.

It's really very simple - just a slit cut into the bottom of the pan at the flywheel end, quite near the drain plug. The bottom of the slit is pushed over a bit, and a cover is brazed onto the outside of the pan where the tube fits in. Theoretically I guess, oil is forced into that slit and then into the tube. I do recall that the forward end of the tube had a small hole in it. I suspect that might have been where some sort of pressure indicated was placed, or perhaps it was just a clean-out opening.

I think main concerns everyone seemed to have was it all looked kinda Rube-Goldberg like. Too many things to come undone and fall apart inside the pan.

Once the bearing caps come off I'll ask if they have been grooved in any way to help oil flow.
Terry

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Re: Internal oiling system - quite ingenious or?

Post by Duey_C » Thu Feb 06, 2020 12:47 am

I think we'd LOVE a pic inside the pan of that lip that's pushed over yet was thinking a top lip in the slit perhaps could've been pushed UP to catch even more oil. When ya get there Terry. :) No pressure...
Liked this outfit from the beginning! Thought ultra cool. Kept my trap shut. ;) GLAD other's chimed in!
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