NEW TO VAPORIZER

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DontKnowMuch
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NEW TO VAPORIZER

Post by DontKnowMuch » Sat Mar 14, 2020 7:55 pm

I am new to the vaporizer carb on my 27 T. A question to those running this car system?
Do you find the vaporizer a bit harder to start when it is cold? That is, is
it harder starting than an NH when cold?


Jack Putnam, in Ohio
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Re: NEW TO VAPORIZER

Post by Jack Putnam, in Ohio » Sat Mar 14, 2020 8:25 pm

Yes, you have to be heavy on the choke for initial start up. If you look at the carb the float bowl is a long way from the top of the carburetor. Just choke it like you mean it.


2nighthawks
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Re: NEW TO VAPORIZER

Post by 2nighthawks » Sat Mar 14, 2020 8:30 pm

James - Altho' some of what I'm about to tell you is pretty much "personal opinion", however, my opinion really is based on some pretty sound evidence.

First, I have read several accounts on this forum over several (in fact, many) years of reading and participating on the forum, of folks that have spoken of "hard starting" with the vaporizer carburetor. Also, from more personal experience, I purchased a very nice "driver grade" '27 depot hack from the family of a very well known and well respected (....but now deceased) member of the Long Beach, CA chapter of the club. This fellow was known to always carry a can of starting fluid in the depot hack with him to aid in his very good running, but very hard to start when cold vaporizer-equipped depot hack. After purchasing this depot hack and driving it for quite awhile, I also experienced the very hard starting when cold nature of this otherwise good running car. Accordingly, I installed what many consider the best all-around carburetor for Model T's, an NH Holley which I have to say, immediately turned the car into a very easy to start under all conditions car.

Bit of additional info that you'll discover if and when you consider replacing the vaporizer, and if your engine is in fact the original "new & improved" Model T's of the '26-'27 variety, you'll probably find that there is no hole at the bottom of the engine block between #2 & #3 to accommodate "thru' the block" throttle linkage, and until fairly recently, to install a carburetor other than the vaporizer, it was necessary to punch or drill a hole through this thin part of the engine block for the linkage. Because I really have an aversion to drilling, and much less "PUNCHING" a hole in an engine block, I purchased the very nice kit that Lang's (and perhaps other vendors) sells which enables installation of a very simple and good operating (over-the-top of the engine) throttle (or carburetor) linkage. To sum up, I have to say that after a couple years of service with this new set-up in place of the vaporizer, I would absolutely replace the vaporizer with the NH Holley and over-the-top linkage again! Dyed-in-the-wool "purists" would disagree, I'm sure, but for a "driver" grade car like mine, it's great! Sorry to be so "long-winded" as I usually am, but "that's ma' story an' I'm stick'n to it! FWIW,...harold


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Re: NEW TO VAPORIZER

Post by 2nighthawks » Sat Mar 14, 2020 8:32 pm

Sorry Jack P.,.....simultaneous typing!


TFowler
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Re: NEW TO VAPORIZER

Post by TFowler » Sat Mar 14, 2020 9:21 pm

Fairly new to Ts and no experience the NH carbs vs Vaporizer.

I rebuilt the Vaporizer on my 27 T. I found that the spray nozzle must be removed as there is gunk and carbon that will clog several orifices behind it. All connections must be air tight....I use Permatex Red on the heat plate and pipe connections.

Cold Start - Hand Crank
Open carb adjustment 1/2 to 3/4 from normal operating position. Throttle in 6th notch
Switch off ....Choke on ...Pull thru 6-8 times
Switch on ....usual fires on 3rd pull

Hots starts fire on 1st pull......Free starts are quite common

I have been very impressed with the vaporizer ......others may disagree.

Todd


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Re: NEW TO VAPORIZER

Post by Jim Bowery » Sun Mar 15, 2020 6:33 am

I have been running a vaporizer on my 1927 Touring for 32 years with very few problems.


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Re: NEW TO VAPORIZER

Post by Jim Eubanks » Sun Mar 15, 2020 8:04 am

I have two cars with vap's on them and have been running them for years. Both cars are vets of a bunch of national tours and our mountain tours every year. I have no problem with them starting and seldom ever change the setting on them. I will say that I pay careful attention to sealing of everything including the intake manifold rings and use high temp silicone.

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George House
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Re: NEW TO VAPORIZER

Post by George House » Sun Mar 15, 2020 10:29 am

I’m with T Fowler on his starting description. Love my vaporizer. Best carb in economy w/ somewhat decent performance...
One of the biggest problems with today’s youth is they’ve never known the fear of hearing leather being rapidly pulled through seven Wrangler belt loops.

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Charlie B in N.J.
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Re: NEW TO VAPORIZER

Post by Charlie B in N.J. » Sun Mar 15, 2020 11:04 am

Stick with it and follow the suggestions. My 1st. T, a '27, had a vaporizer. The problem was I was too new to T's and ended up switching to an NH. (which I liked a lot). But my point is I wasn't willing to learn at that time. I'm older now and think I know better than tossing $ at correcting a problem that was really in my mind. By the way my block had the hole between the cylinders. The valve cover had the hole too but the gasket didn't.
Forget everything you thought you knew.

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Ed Baudoux
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Re: NEW TO VAPORIZER

Post by Ed Baudoux » Sun Mar 15, 2020 12:38 pm

I run the Vaporizer on our Fordor. Cold starts are never an issue, but it usually requires a bit of choke when warmed up. I plan to check for an air leak, as soon as our snow is gone.
Grayling Michigan
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1926 Huckster
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Re: NEW TO VAPORIZER

Post by Jim, Sr. » Sun Mar 15, 2020 9:55 pm

I have been running a vaporizer on my 1926 touring since 1971. Next year it will be 50 years and pretty much trouble free. I also use high temp silicone to seal everything. The thin tin plate has probably been changed about 5 times. On a cold start, I open the needle valve a quarter turn, turn on the ignition to battery, pull the choke, and push down on the starter switch. It usually starts on the first revolution.
1922 Coupe , 1926 Touring


Chris Barker
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Re: NEW TO VAPORIZER

Post by Chris Barker » Mon Mar 16, 2020 10:30 am

18 years and about 35000 miles on a Vap -

Mine will always cold start if I do the following.

Pull out the choke, richen by 1/4 turn, give it some throttle and press the starter for 4 compressions.
Push in the choke, turn on the ignition and press the starter.

And it will never start if I don't!


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Re: NEW TO VAPORIZER

Post by OilyBill » Fri May 15, 2020 2:10 pm

Decided to go with a Vaporizer Carb on a 1927 Coupe
Anyone have an idea where I can get a replacement fuel float? From the posts on here, it sounds like the original float was weak, and needed to be of a larger volume. I have the original float, and could probably clean it and seal it, but would prefer to have one that has a little more flotation, as there seems to be a consistent problem mentioned in these posts, about the original float not being able to hold back the fuel head pressure from the cowl tank. Anyone have any input?
Also, does anyone have the little spare sheet metal hood for the inlet? Mine has the little hole that indicates it had one originally.


Scott_Conger
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Re: NEW TO VAPORIZER

Post by Scott_Conger » Fri May 15, 2020 3:24 pm

The larger float is what came with it, and won't hurt. What will help more, is a modern float valve with a viton tip.
Scott Conger

Full Flow Float Valves - deliver fuel like Henry intended!

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Duey_C
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Re: NEW TO VAPORIZER

Post by Duey_C » Fri May 15, 2020 11:16 pm

Yeehaw! MORE positives about the much maligned/mis-understood Vaporizer carbs!
I hope when I can get back to the TT with a vapo-rub carb, that he'll be be just as nice.
Switch ON, four poor coils, two or three choked flops with the hand crank and vroom! What a sweety, he is.
Since I lost my mind mind, I feel more liberated

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Mark Gregush
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Re: NEW TO VAPORIZER

Post by Mark Gregush » Sat May 16, 2020 12:35 pm

Working on 26 with the vaporizer, little harder to start compared to what I am use too (Kingston and Schebler's), it's not in the best shape, but starts and runs just fine. Before this one, last time I played with a vaporizer was over 20 years ago, so this is a learning curve for me too. :)
I know the voices aren't real but damn they have some good ideas! :shock:

1925 Cut down pickup
1920 Dodge touring
1948 Ford F2 pickup


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Re: NEW TO VAPORIZER

Post by Russ T Fender » Sat May 16, 2020 1:24 pm

The Vaporizer carburetor on my '27 started fine with the starter if you richened the mixture a1/2 turn and held the coke on all the way. Unfortunately, it was a bear to start on the crank when cold. I rarely use the starter as none of my other cars have one and found this to be annoying but the real reason I switched to an NH is the lackluster performance on the road. The "improved" Ford is heavier and sports the low compression head which makes it slower out of the box but when I switched to a straight through NH there was a noticeable improvement and cold starts were much easier on the crank! I like things the way Ford made them and all my cars, except the '27, run original equipment but after having my Vaporizer rebuilt professionally with no improvement I gave up on it. I must admit however that warm starts were fine and I got many more starts on compression with the Vaporizer.


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Re: NEW TO VAPORIZER

Post by OilyBill » Sun May 24, 2020 2:25 am

I keep hearing about the thin heat plate in the Vaporizer Carb rusting and getting pinholes.
I just took one apart, and I would SWEAR this thin plate is made of stainless. It is as shiny as a fresh stamping, but has carbon on the exhaust side of the manifold. There is no sign of rust or pitting, even though the rest of the carb had rust on it. (light rust, plus grime from storage)
Does anyone know if Ford ever used a stainless heat plate? Or was this an aftermarket accessory?
My personal opinion is that it is NOT an aftermarket piece, as it has all the surface features of the ones depicted in the parts drawings. (That was a pretty intricate stamping die, for just a flat part.) Also, it doesn't look as thought the carb was ever apart. I assume it was removed sometime in the past and they put some other carb on the T they had, It looks like it just laid on the shelf for however many years before I got it. I got it as a complete unit, from one of our members post-passing dispersal sales.
It DOES have the little hole for mounting the little sheet metal elbow intake.
Any Vaporizer experts have any input?
Thanks!

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Thorlick
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Re: NEW TO VAPORIZER

Post by Thorlick » Mon May 25, 2020 8:07 pm

William, I just replaced my heating plate on my ‘27... again. The new ones do look shiny like stainless. Stainless would be a good choice like the tube running through the stove. The problem I have with the reproduction heating plates is that the detailed stamping is too sharply delineated.

Shiny steel stamping with evidence of use
Shiny steel stamping with evidence of use
IMG_7229.JPG (17.08 KiB) Viewed 1938 times



The plates tend to crack at the stamped feature.


Crack follows stamping then spreads from there.
Crack follows stamping then spreads from there.
D3CEF08B-8C89-4F24-BF34-0A66CA08DA0B.jpeg (22.99 KiB) Viewed 1895 times




I assume that these cracks are a result of the reproduction stamping dies being too sharp. Although this crack looks small it will expand when hot. Even a little exhaust gas puffing into the carburetor mixture will make the car run poorly if at all.

While you have the carburetor open be sure to check the riser tube. looking closely at this one you can see it was cracked through the center below the heat exchanger wire coil. It is interesting that the plate and the tube failed at the same location... don't know which is the chicken and which the egg!



crack in mixture tube below the coiled heat sink wire
crack in mixture tube below the coiled heat sink wire
tube.jpg (12.31 KiB) Viewed 1938 times



I have used NH, Stromberg, and Zentith X carburetors but returned to the vaporizer about 16 years ago. If you set up the carburetor carefully with no leaks it can run very well with performance close to the NH, just more sensitive to the needle valve. I ran mine for about ten years (daily driving) until the plate burned through. You will know there is a problem in very little time. Fix the problem (usually the heater plate) and you are good to go for a long time.

I really enjoy using the Holley Vaporizer because it performs well and really irritates the "experts" who say a Vaporizer is no good and can't be run!



Holley Vaporizer Carburetor
Holley Vaporizer Carburetor



TH
Terry Horlick, Penn Valley, CA
1927 Mountain Patrol Vehicle from the Los Angeles City Fire Department (L.A.F.D.)
1912 Model T Ford English Station Omnibus


OilyBill
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Re: NEW TO VAPORIZER

Post by OilyBill » Tue Jun 23, 2020 10:16 pm

Thank you, Terry!
I appreciate the info!
The vaporizer is what was on this car when it was new, and I see no reason it shouldn't be rebuilt successfully and reinstalled, and run just as good as the day it was driven off the dealer lot. So that is what I am working towards.


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Re: NEW TO VAPORIZER

Post by Scott_Conger » Tue Jun 23, 2020 11:16 pm

all of the info that you will find on the forum regarding drilling/cleaning passage ways if necessary, and ensuring no vacuum leaks anywhere will ensure success. If the throttle shaft is at all loose/worn, you may have unpredictable idling speeds. That is an often overlooked part of lesser rebuilds. No carb will perform optimally with a loose throttle shaft, and the vaporizor is particularly sensitive to vacuum leaks of any kind, anywhere.

Finally, be aware that while they may look the same, the bowl nut/draincock assy is DIFFERENT than a normal NH and CANNOT be interchanged. Be sure and order the correct part if you must replace it.
Scott Conger

Full Flow Float Valves - deliver fuel like Henry intended!


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Re: NEW TO VAPORIZER

Post by John Codman » Wed Jun 24, 2020 11:12 am

My '27 came to me with an NH. Obviously sometime during the last 93 years there was an owner who didn't like the vaporizer. I have no vaporizer experience, so I have no opinion to offer, but my T runs great with it's NH.

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Thorlick
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Re: NEW TO VAPORIZER

Post by Thorlick » Wed Jun 24, 2020 11:07 pm

For the car to run well you need spark, compression and fuel mixture. If a car runs badly on one type of carburetor folks are prone to trying another type. If it runs well on one type you tend to stick with that type.

Before playing with carbs you must make sure the car is running well spark and compression and a good carburetor.

If you don’t like the vaporizer you likely need to try a good running vaporizer. If you have a crappy NH maybe you need a good one.

I even had a poorly running Stromberg OF. After Stan fixed it it commenced running great.

So my opinion is get a carburetor running well and run it. If you have a reason to use a specific carb ( like I do... 1927 with no hole between #2&3) then spend the time and effort to get that one running and run it.

Because some people have a bad carb and don’t know how to make it work doesn’t mean you can’t fix yours and enjoy it.

IMHO TH
Terry Horlick, Penn Valley, CA
1927 Mountain Patrol Vehicle from the Los Angeles City Fire Department (L.A.F.D.)
1912 Model T Ford English Station Omnibus

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Thorlick
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Re: NEW TO VAPORIZER

Post by Thorlick » Thu Jun 25, 2020 10:00 am

I have pulled up a video you might want to look at regarding a vaporizer problem. Click here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OPfzFRipNkc.

About 5 years ago I had a problem with the carburetor running badly. You can see the carburetor squirting fuel out at 1:36 on the video. This is leaking out the vent in the bowl. In addition you can see a fuel leak out the connection nut above the heat exchange chamber at 2:04 in the video.

At the time I didn't really understand what was happening. I found a cracked exchange plate and changed it out which solved the fuel leak. The carb ran well for the next 5 years until the plate again cracked (see photo in earlier post).

I now know there was a crack in the tube inside that chamber. If your vaporizer is squirting fuel it is a symptom of simultaneous broken tube and plate. Replace the plate and it runs fine. But there is still a crack in the tube! The unusual fuel leak is due to the heating chamber pressure experiencing increase pressure pulses coming from the exhaust through the plate crack then blowing through into the emulsion tube. Once a pressure wave enters the tube it blows fuel out the bowl vent and the top of the emulsion tube... causing the car to be hard starting and very poor running.

At the end of the video you can see that even with a cracked plate and tube it still runs! I actually took me 5 years of daily running to finally getting around to spotting that cracked emulsion tube!

So now if the car is having a problem running I know to check both areas. In my experience a vaporizer carb is a good running unit but you need to fix any and all leaks. It's not rocket science, they ran well on inferior fuel in 1927 and if you do simple things they will run well on the inferior alcohol mixes we have available today.

IMHO
TH
Terry Horlick, Penn Valley, CA
1927 Mountain Patrol Vehicle from the Los Angeles City Fire Department (L.A.F.D.)
1912 Model T Ford English Station Omnibus

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Duey_C
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Re: NEW TO VAPORIZER

Post by Duey_C » Fri Jun 26, 2020 1:13 am

VERY interesting video Terry!
Thank you.
More great info for us non compliant carb users.
I have two good running NH's here also for the easily offended. ;)
Since I lost my mind mind, I feel more liberated

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