Coil ring sealant

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Marshall V. Daut
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Coil ring sealant

Post by Marshall V. Daut » Sat Mar 28, 2020 12:22 pm

What are folks using to coat magneto coil ring wrappings these days? Predictably, some knucklehead in the past tried to remove the starter from my friend's 1924 Coupe engine and tore through the windings' coatings in that area. Plus, the remaining coils could use some freshening up with a sealant. They appear to be an original whitish-gray color = never restored or recoated. Now's the time to do it with engine all over the garage floor.
I see some coil windings in on-line photos are coated in red and some that are yellow, some even green. Glyptal seems to be the traditional favored coating, but at $42.00 per spray can plus shipping or tax locally, that's pretty steep for one-time job. I'm not necessarily looking for a cheap way out. I just don't want to pay for a Bentley when all I need is a Rambler. Or do I need to just bite bullet and buy Glyptal? I only want to do this ONCE and do it RIGHT!
Recommendations, please? As always, thanks in advance.
Marshall


Scott_Conger
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Re: Coil ring sealant

Post by Scott_Conger » Sat Mar 28, 2020 12:43 pm

Marshall with due respect I'd say that if you want to do it ONCE and RIGHT, none of your plans would really meet that criteria for me. If the engine is all over the floor it isn't like some $$ are not going to be spent on this thing even if it is on a budget. And who right now is NOT on a budget? FWIW.
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Re: Coil ring sealant

Post by Joe Bell » Sat Mar 28, 2020 1:09 pm

I use to rebuild my own, then had Wally do them for me, Now since Wally Retired I have Bill Lucius of New Riegel Ohio do them for me, he supplies the big vendors with them and they are to deep in the engine to mess them up and to have to do them again. 419-595 2310 is his number. Hope this helps!

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Mark Gregush
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Re: Coil ring sealant

Post by Mark Gregush » Sat Mar 28, 2020 1:15 pm

There are two ways to do this job the right way or the get by way. The first is to replace the coil ring the other is to leave it out and run a distributor.
https://www.modeltford.com/item/3250F.aspx (plus shipping both ways)
I know the voices aren't real but damn they have some good ideas! :shock:

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Jerry VanOoteghem
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Re: Coil ring sealant

Post by Jerry VanOoteghem » Sat Mar 28, 2020 1:31 pm

Joe Bell wrote:
Sat Mar 28, 2020 1:09 pm
I use to rebuild my own, then had Wally do them for me, Now since Wally Retired I have Bill Lucius of New Riegel Ohio do them for me, he supplies the big vendors with them and they are to deep in the engine to mess them up and to have to do them again. 419-595 2310 is his number. Hope this helps!

Marshall,

You're right, $42 is way too much money, since it will be wasted. He'll still have old cruddy coil ring, but with Glyptol on it. The smart money is to do what Joe, (and others), suggest.


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Marshall V. Daut
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Re: Coil ring sealant

Post by Marshall V. Daut » Sat Mar 28, 2020 1:36 pm

The coils near the starter are not damaged or scrunched. Maybe I overstated their condition. Just the wrappings are skinned and some of the brass coil wrapping layers are visible. The magneto worked before disassembly, but I suspected it was weak because there was no change in sound or power when switching from battery to magneto. We will recharge the mag, but I want to reseal the coil wrappings first. That's why I am soliciting opinions on what sealant to use.
Marshall


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Re: Coil ring sealant

Post by Dan McEachern » Sat Mar 28, 2020 1:55 pm

New coil is best but. . . . clean the coil of all grease and crud and if a single coil is loose, or the insulation totally gone, 5 minute epoxy works well with a coat of Glyptal over it. Grainger has spray cans of insulating epoxy and so does Amazon- one brand that I use is SPRAYON and it was about $10 a can last time I purchased it. I would suggest disconnecting the grounded end of the coil from the frame and do a resistance check from the winding to the frame before you put too much time into it to check for any coils that are shorted to ground. In a perfect world everything could be replaced with new, but sometimes ya gotta do what ya gotta do.

here is a link to the Sprayon from Zoro:

https://www.zoro.com/sprayon-red-insula ... &gclsrc=ds


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Re: Coil ring sealant

Post by rgould1910 » Sat Mar 28, 2020 2:10 pm

Here's my advice/experience. Never recoat an oily coil. Nothing will adhere for long. Even if you disassemble, rewind and recoat, recoat multiple times and bake the coil as recommended. Air drying doesn't work. I've had Glyptal and a syrupy varnish I got from a local electrical winding repair outfit flake off otherwise. I've had no problem with coils furnished by RV Anderson or in the past by Wally.

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Re: Coil ring sealant

Post by AndreFordT » Sat Mar 28, 2020 2:15 pm

Hello Marshall,

experience learned me that trying to repair a coilring is a waste of time and money.
If yours have some insulation gone or coils that seems to be out of working you only have the chioce between replace it or rebuild it.
Replacing is easy you can find it at about every model T part shop.
Rebuilding it your self can be done. You just need to take your time for it and first read the Electric System Manual Edited by the MTFCA.
That's what I have done some 10 years ago. Since than I rebuild about 15 coilrings every year. It takes me about a weekend to clear the job.

To insulate the cleaned string I use a kind of masking tape that stand the oil.
As you take the coils apart you will find two insulation shields at each side of the coil. Under each sometimes you can find a third shield.
These shield need to be replaced. 48 are needed. Gasket paper works very well for this.
After winding the coils you need to warp it, I use 10mm (3/8") wide cotton tape, about 125cm is needed for each coil.
After assembly of the coilring I give it two coats of polyster resin, after you can paint it any colour you want.
Before all everything need to be cleaned and degreased very well.

I will try to post 12 photo's showing the way I do it. We can post only 5 photos at each post, it will take three post to post the all.

Good luck
Andre
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AndreFordT
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Re: Coil ring sealant

Post by AndreFordT » Sat Mar 28, 2020 2:16 pm

second serie photos.
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AndreFordT
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Re: Coil ring sealant

Post by AndreFordT » Sat Mar 28, 2020 2:17 pm

last.
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AndreFordT
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Re: Coil ring sealant

Post by AndreFordT » Sat Mar 28, 2020 2:22 pm

Forgot to tell. Price of the needed material is about $10.-
Last time it took me 15 hours to clear the job.

Andre
Belgium

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KWTownsend
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Re: Coil ring sealant

Post by KWTownsend » Sat Mar 28, 2020 3:29 pm

Andre-
Nice work.
What product did you use on the ribbon to insulate between each layer of the windings?
I rewound one of these 30+ years ago and used Dolph's insulating spray varnish.
: ^ )
Keith


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Re: Coil ring sealant

Post by jab35 » Sat Mar 28, 2020 5:28 pm

KW: McMaster Carr Part number 7574A11 Silicone Adhesive Fiberglass heat rated to 500F. 0.007" thick. This is 1/2" wide and I split to 1/4", at the time I could not find 1/4" wide. The coil ribbon is 3/16 for my ring. I used the same 1/2 " wide fiberglass tape to wrap the finished coils. 10$ per mag ring is dirt cheap, the tape retailed for $11.00 per roll of 18yards. Look at Andre's previous posts he has a lot of pics and is very meticulous, class act on his rebuild.

McM-Carr also has the fishpaper you make the washers from that go behind the coils, I used 0.020" thick. Cut the washers in a teardrop shape so you have a little 'tab' behind the coil between the solder joint and the iron core.

I glued each coil and fishpaper washer to the ring with Glyptal 1202 clear electrical varnish and after final assembly I saturated everything with clear Glyptal 1202 electrical varnish and baked at 200F for an hour in the kitchen oven. The temp and time is recommended by the manufacturer of this product.

Best, jb


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Re: Coil ring sealant

Post by Scott_Conger » Sat Mar 28, 2020 6:08 pm

James

are you single?

or just trying to be?

:lol:
Scott Conger

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Re: Coil ring sealant

Post by NU2theT » Sat Mar 28, 2020 6:20 pm

Several years ago I made the mistake of spraying an exhaust manifold and "curing" it in the oven. We went out for dinner on numerous occasions to make up for that one :lol:


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Re: Coil ring sealant

Post by R.V.Anderson » Sat Mar 28, 2020 6:22 pm

As has been pointed out, this is NOT the place to do a lick-and-a-promise type job. Even on an original coil in seemingly good condition, the cotton wrapping is brittle and likely to begin to flake oil-line-clogging pieces once it's returned to service. If this coil was a recent rewind, I'd be happy to send you a small amount of Glyptal to touch up the area, but on an original, uh-uh.


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Re: Coil ring sealant

Post by keen25 » Sat Mar 28, 2020 6:34 pm

That to me is a metal anguish problem. You are thinking this ring still has some life in it but darn it is so deep in the engine assembly. I found that I have long forgot the financial pain of the few hundred dollars to install a new ring but if I put the used one in I will always be thinking that the ring is going to fail and I will need to get a new one and do all that work of an install later that I should have done before. I also must have the mag working, I get a real charge out of turning the switch to mag and hearing the engine jump up a little.


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Re: Coil ring sealant

Post by jab35 » Sat Mar 28, 2020 8:11 pm

Scott: That little question took a good bit of the edge off the angst of corona19, thanks. Actually if we make it thru this summer we will have completed our first 50 years together sharing the kitchen and stove. I got the Glyptal tip from Mark Fleishhacker (RIP) and I find that is excellent for this application. After air drying, the Glyptal 2102 varnish is essentially odorless and the bake temp is low enough that there was no objectionable odor in the oven or in the house during or after the procedure. best, jb


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Re: Coil ring sealant

Post by Scott_Conger » Sat Mar 28, 2020 9:13 pm

JB

contrats on the 50 years, and by the way...you're welcome. ;)
Scott Conger

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Re: Coil ring sealant

Post by BobShirleyAtlantaTx » Sun Mar 29, 2020 6:17 am

Using Mylar tape to insulate the wire, then rapping the coils with 3M glass cloth electrical tape and putting a paper washer under the coil. Blasting the ring and putting it together then I take the assembly to an electric motor rebuild shop in Oil City LA. To me this is the important part of the build, the motor shop has a pressurized vat that forces the lacquer into the coils and then they bake it. I’m not sure what the lacquer is, but it’s some tough stuff.
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Re: Coil ring sealant

Post by Henry K. Lee » Sun Mar 29, 2020 6:26 am

Very Nice Work Folks!!!! Do it right and be done with it!

Hank


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Marshall V. Daut
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Re: Coil ring sealant

Post by Marshall V. Daut » Sun Mar 29, 2020 8:39 am

Wow! The response with all this terrific information is overwhelming! Thanks to everyone for taking the time to share your experience and recommendations. Very impressive and most instructional!!! You've given us a lot to think over and options to choose from. I'll see what the car's owner wants to do.
Marshall


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Re: Coil ring sealant

Post by John kuehn » Sun Mar 29, 2020 8:54 am

If you want to run a T on mag and be sure about it I would buy a rebuilt mag ring. With yours as a trade in for a rebuilt is around 200.00. If yours is an original and never been rebuilt the insulation is 100 years old. Yes I know it’s about the cost but to be sure I would get a rebuilt.
That’s what I finally did with my my T’s.


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Re: Coil ring sealant

Post by jab35 » Sun Mar 29, 2020 12:09 pm

After rebuilding one mag ring and with a second one in progress, I absolutely and totally agree with John Kuehn!

Not because rebuilding is so hard, time consuming, etc, it's not difficult, even somewhat therapeutic, and I learned a lot and have satisfaction of a successful project. However, professional rebuilds are available for a very fair price and with surface ground poles and mounting surfaces, new copper strip in the windings, these are a bargain and vastly superior to Henry's originals. Rebuild if you like, it's a great project in my opinion, but don't feel bad investing in a professionally rebuilt mag ring, that is money very well-spent. Stay safe, jb


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Marshall V. Daut
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Re: Coil ring sealant

Post by Marshall V. Daut » Mon Mar 30, 2020 12:37 pm

I spoke with Mrs. Lucius in Ohio this morning. Our ratty old magneto coil ring will be sent later this week to her husband Bill for exchange with a rebuilt coil ring. One less thing to worry about in this ^%#%&! engine. Thanks for all your input and outstanding photos. The depth of Model T knowledge on this website never ceases to amaze me, as well as the willingness to share advice and experience. Where was all this terrific support when I first got into Model T's in 1978??? :lol: Thanks again to all!
Marshall

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