More on Ford racing in France, 1911, and a big thank you.

Discuss all things Model T related.
Forum rules
If you need help logging in, or have question about how something works, use the Support forum located here Support Forum
Complete set of Forum Rules Forum Rules
User avatar

Topic author
Rob
Posts: 387
Joined: Fri Jan 04, 2019 1:53 pm
First Name: Rob
Last Name: Heyen
Location: Eastern Nebraska

More on Ford racing in France, 1911, and a big thank you.

Post by Rob » Wed Feb 06, 2019 7:19 pm

Several forum members stepped up and helped me find info on several French speaking sites, regarding the wreck of a Ford racer while preparing for the 1911 French Grand Prix. And today, someone evidently bought the photograph that was on ebay, and sent it to me. I can't thank you all enough! I'm not going to spend a lot of time on this, but will post some of the materials found. It seems this Ford racer made an impact on French media. Unfortunately, I've not found mention of the historical significance in any of the Ford histories I own.

I was aware a Ford was sent to France to run in the 1911 French Grand Prix. What i didn't know was that it was a Ford Special. That's significant, because Ford Motor Company didn't ship these racers around to anyone else. Only Frank Kulick, and a couple of other Ford drivers on occasion, raced these special and very different cars. And Ford seemed to be very careful to make sure the public and media didn't know these were anything other than stripped stock Model T.

The photo I received today:
IMG_1696.JPG
Reports say the racer was traveling 75 to 80 mph and struck a poplar tree, glanced off, and struck another. The mechanician was immediately killed, and Henri Depasse, Ford's French agent, was badly bruised and shaken. Needless to say the racer didnt' make the Grand Prix:
IMG_1690.JPG
The article appeared in the L Auto paper, with plaudits for the Ford Special:
IMG_1688.PNG
Close up with computer generated translation:
IMG_1728.PNG

User avatar

Topic author
Rob
Posts: 387
Joined: Fri Jan 04, 2019 1:53 pm
First Name: Rob
Last Name: Heyen
Location: Eastern Nebraska

Re: More on Ford racing in France, 1911, and a big thank you.

Post by Rob » Wed Feb 06, 2019 7:33 pm

The second place finish on the Mont Ventoux hill climb gained the racer front page exposure on this publication of "La Vie au Grand Air (Outdoor Life)"
IMG_1723.JPG
IMG_1725.JPG
IMG_1724.JPG

User avatar

John E. Guitar
Posts: 177
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 2:52 pm
First Name: John
Last Name: Guitar
Location: Sydney
Board Member Since: 2012

Re: More on Ford racing in France, 1911, and a big thank you.

Post by John E. Guitar » Wed Feb 06, 2019 8:08 pm

Finishing second overall, beaten by a 100 horsepower car and beating all other cars including another 100 horsepower car.

I wonder if the Cottin Desgouttes is the car that was in the film Chitty Chitty Bang Bang?

User avatar

Topic author
Rob
Posts: 387
Joined: Fri Jan 04, 2019 1:53 pm
First Name: Rob
Last Name: Heyen
Location: Eastern Nebraska

Re: More on Ford racing in France, 1911, and a big thank you.

Post by Rob » Thu Feb 07, 2019 9:12 am

John,
The early race scene has stuck with me for year from Chitty Chitty Bang Bang. I suspect that scene, and the resulting magical early car also interested me in long hooded beasts such a the Model K. Another movie that impacted my early interest in cars in general and Model T in particular were the Flubber movies with Fred McMurray.
What Wikipedia says about the "real" Chitty;
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chitty_Bang_Bang
IMG_1739.PNG
Opening race scene to the movie:

https://youtu.be/oYU7z6z3N14

User avatar

Topic author
Rob
Posts: 387
Joined: Fri Jan 04, 2019 1:53 pm
First Name: Rob
Last Name: Heyen
Location: Eastern Nebraska

Re: More on Ford racing in France, 1911, and a big thank you.

Post by Rob » Thu Feb 07, 2019 9:28 am

It appears Ford Motor Company and representative Henri Depasse certainly made a splash with the Ford Special. While history seems to have forgotten, racing and French sports and racing magazines of the day documented details of the Ford Special's visit. Following disqualification from the light car race at Balougne in late June, Depasse entered the Ford racer in the French Grand Prix at Sarthe for July, 1911. La Revue de L'Automobile previewed the entries:
IMG_1741.JPG
IMG_1742.JPG
IMG_1743.JPG
IMG_1744.JPG
IMG_1745.JPG

User avatar

Topic author
Rob
Posts: 387
Joined: Fri Jan 04, 2019 1:53 pm
First Name: Rob
Last Name: Heyen
Location: Eastern Nebraska

Re: More on Ford racing in France, 1911, and a big thank you.

Post by Rob » Thu Feb 07, 2019 9:35 am

And last but not least, Ford and Gregiore:
IMG_1746.JPG
This is the translation of what the magazine wrote about the Ford, and it's disqualification from the Balougne race, along with reference to Ford's one Km speed trial 111 KPH (69 mph):

"Ford:
The departure was refused to the Ford car in the Coupe des Carriages ... because it did not weigh heavy enough! In running order, it weighs only 600 kg., That is to say a little more than standard series chassis, but less than 800 kg. imposed as minimum in the Cup.
  The Ford racing car is very fast; she made 111 km.-h in the test of the kilometer start, at Fresnaye-sur-Sarthe, at the beginning of June. It is, in all points, similar to the serial cars, except that the piston and the rods *have been opened, and the diameters of valves increased.
   Everybody knows the personal characteristics of the Ford, its flywheel magneto, its epicyclic speed change, its transverse springs, etc.
   It is certain that the lightness of the Ford car constituted for her a more marked advantage on a very bumpy circuit, like that of Boulogne, than on a level circuit like that of Le Mans. Nevertheless, we are sure that the Ford team will complete an interesting race.
* - original “ajourés” - translation; “with holes made in it” [possibly the holes in the cylinder walls of Ford Special motor blocks]"

User avatar

John E. Guitar
Posts: 177
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 2:52 pm
First Name: John
Last Name: Guitar
Location: Sydney
Board Member Since: 2012

Re: More on Ford racing in France, 1911, and a big thank you.

Post by John E. Guitar » Thu Feb 07, 2019 4:34 pm

Here is a 2009 video of the Cottin Desgouttes. Its 10.5 litre engine sounds pretty good.

http://cottindesgouttes.free.fr/en/GrandPrix1911.htm

User avatar

Topic author
Rob
Posts: 387
Joined: Fri Jan 04, 2019 1:53 pm
First Name: Rob
Last Name: Heyen
Location: Eastern Nebraska

Re: More on Ford racing in France, 1911, and a big thank you.

Post by Rob » Thu Feb 07, 2019 4:43 pm

Another French publication, Omnia La Locomotion, carried a brief description of the race, along with photos, dated August 12th, 1911:
IMG_1751.JPG
Online translation:

"
  • The hill climb of Mont Ventoux
    The Mont Ventoux hill race took place on Sunday the 6th of this month, and has achieved the same success as usual.
       The cars were divided into 8 categories, and there were also two categories of motorcycles.
       The course was exactly 23k. 600, and the altitude difference of 1679 meters.
       The highest speed was made by Deydier, on a Cottin-Desgouttes. He is nearing the record, still held by Bablot.
       The competitor who has the closest approach to Deydier's time is Depasse, on a Ford series.
       The two Lion-Peugeot, who, between the men, one Boillot and the other Goux, arrived first, each in his category, are also remarkable.

User avatar

Topic author
Rob
Posts: 387
Joined: Fri Jan 04, 2019 1:53 pm
First Name: Rob
Last Name: Heyen
Location: Eastern Nebraska

Re: More on Ford racing in France, 1911, and a big thank you.

Post by Rob » Thu Feb 07, 2019 4:57 pm

Thank you for posting John. It's interesting to see the Ford Special competed on the world stage. 1911 was Ford Motor Company's last big push at racing, and the Ford Special won and was competitive in the U.S. and now we know in one instance, abroad.

User avatar

perry kete
Posts: 386
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 11:46 am
First Name: Dennis
Last Name: Seth
Location: Jefferson Ohio

Re: More on Ford racing in France, 1911, and a big thank you.

Post by perry kete » Thu Feb 07, 2019 5:48 pm

Great information on the races I really enjoy reading the past history. What I find amusing is that they taper the rear of the car to make it aerodynamic but then have those large wind drag front fenders.
1922 Coupe & 1927 Touring


Jsteele
Posts: 34
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 11:25 am
First Name: John P.
Last Name: Steele
Location: Montana
MTFCA Number: 374
MTFCA Life Member: YES
MTFCI Number: 137

Re: More on Ford racing in France, 1911, and a big thank you.

Post by Jsteele » Thu Feb 07, 2019 6:32 pm

Hi Rob, Thanks this is always interesting stuff!

User avatar

Topic author
Rob
Posts: 387
Joined: Fri Jan 04, 2019 1:53 pm
First Name: Rob
Last Name: Heyen
Location: Eastern Nebraska

Re: More on Ford racing in France, 1911, and a big thank you.

Post by Rob » Thu Feb 07, 2019 6:33 pm

Thanks guys. John, i should have kept the wheels...... :)

User avatar

Topic author
Rob
Posts: 387
Joined: Fri Jan 04, 2019 1:53 pm
First Name: Rob
Last Name: Heyen
Location: Eastern Nebraska

Re: More on Ford racing in France, 1911, and a big thank you.

Post by Rob » Thu Feb 07, 2019 7:02 pm

Last magazine article. This description of the Ford racer was included in the late June 1911 issue of "La Revue de Automobile." In their Light Car Coverage" that Ford was disqualified from for being too light. The magazine rails agains exclusion of the Ford, however doesn't mention the oversized engine:
Cover
IMG_1754.PNG
Article/description:
IMG_1753.PNG
Translation:
Ford
In the statement of the characteristics of the Ford car, it will be noticed immediately that it is in flagrant contradiction with the regulation. Is it not compulsory for any machine taking part in the test to weigh a minimum of 800 kg. in working order? However, the Ford weighs only 600.
   But in a regulation, there is the spirit and the letter ... The 800 kg specification. had been introduced in order to prevent those who built a special car for the test to come to dispute with a chassis , a real monster too far from current solutions used in commercial types. Only ... it turns out that the Ford car, in its type of series, the one that is sold every day to the customer, weighs little more than 500 kg. Would it be necessary to impose 300 kg. lead salmon (one translator listed “pig iron”) to bring it to the minimum weight demands? The organizers thought, with good reason, that in this case it was possible to refer to the spirit of the regulations. However, as it is well known that Ford cars, by their special construction, are less than 600 kg., That all cars delivered to customers are below this weight, the Ford car is admitted as a "car" series".
In fact, the car engaged by the friendly Depasse in the Cluster of Light Cars is perhaps the only machine participating in the test in which any constituent part is interchangeable with those of the commercial chassis. On the other hand, we know that the Ford has just given its measure at the meeting of the Sarthe or it has mounted a rating of 7 p. 100, departure stopped at 55 km.-h. of average and was the kilometer level at 111 km.-h. We must therefore consider it as a possible underdog.
   It is not without interest to recall the personal characteristics of the Ford: four-cylinder engine separated 95X102, but with separate cylinder head and single; lower housing in one piece with that of the gear change; magneto ignition included in the engine flywheel; adjustable carburetor adjustable by the driver; metal clutch with multiple disks; gear change has epicycloidal gear actuated by a pedal and having two speeds and reverse gear; the car climbs so to speak all the dimensions in direct catch, the variations of pace being obtained by regulation of the gases; vanadium steel stamped rear deck; suspension by transverse springs at the front and rear of the chassis.


KeithG
Posts: 244
Joined: Thu Jan 03, 2019 3:00 pm
First Name: Keith
Last Name: Gumbinger
Location: Kenosha, WI
MTFCA Number: 4661
MTFCA Life Member: YES
MTFCI Number: 6866
Board Member Since: 1999

Re: More on Ford racing in France, 1911, and a big thank you.

Post by KeithG » Thu Feb 07, 2019 10:00 pm

Rob, Keep it coming, it's great!

Keith
'14 Touring, '26 Roadster Pickup, '27 Fordor, '25 TT C Cab with Express Bed.
Motto: It's hard to build a garage that's tooooo big! :D


wayne sheldon
Posts: 1219
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 3:13 pm
First Name: Wayne
Last Name: Sheldon
Location: Grass Valley Califunny, USA
Board Member Since: 2005

Re: More on Ford racing in France, 1911, and a big thank you.

Post by wayne sheldon » Fri Feb 08, 2019 2:35 am

Thank you Rob!

User avatar

bobster1
Posts: 24
Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2019 2:30 am
First Name: Bob
Last Name: Richmon
Location: Richmond, VA
MTFCA Number: 30810
MTFCI Number: 22432

Re: More on Ford racing in France, 1911, and a big thank you.

Post by bobster1 » Fri Feb 08, 2019 5:11 am

In you last article, it sounds like the French disqualified the Ford by twisting the rules! I think the were scared of the the little racer!
Bob Richmon, 804-339-0584,bobveco@aol.com, 07' Model N, 1911 T Touring,1913 Overland, 1919 Paco Speedster :lol:

User avatar

Topic author
Rob
Posts: 387
Joined: Fri Jan 04, 2019 1:53 pm
First Name: Rob
Last Name: Heyen
Location: Eastern Nebraska

Re: More on Ford racing in France, 1911, and a big thank you.

Post by Rob » Fri Feb 08, 2019 8:10 am

Thanks guys.

Bob, I was somewhat surprised at the tone of L'Auto, taking the side of Ford. One thing to consider is that this Ford Special was a "wolf in sheeps clothing" with a larger than normal racing motor tucked under the hood of a Ford appearing chassis. Some photos of the Ford in France show it wearing wood wheels, sometimes wire. I have found drawings at Benson of parts of the wire wheels, and they were assigned to racer M-III. M-III (3) also happens to be the racer engine we have, which is a 300 cubic inch (approximate) motor. Our motor has about a 4.36 X 5 inch bore/stroke. This racer, according to the article below, had a 4 1/2 by 4 3/4 bore/stroke. Ford almost never published the size of the Ford Special motors. The French article makes it sound as if the other carmakers did the same, saying the Ford "is perhaps the only machine participating in the test in which any constituent part is interchangeable with those of the commercial chassis."

Bottom line, while Ford performed admirably in the high profile Mont Ventoux hill climb and 1Km speed trial, it unfortunately missed the two biggest opportunities to prove itself against the best Europe had to offer due to disqualification and wrecking during practice, the Voiture Tour Balougne, and the French Grand Prix.

IMG_1756.PNG
[/size]

User avatar

Topic author
Rob
Posts: 387
Joined: Fri Jan 04, 2019 1:53 pm
First Name: Rob
Last Name: Heyen
Location: Eastern Nebraska

Re: More on Ford racing in France, 1911, and a big thank you.

Post by Rob » Fri Feb 08, 2019 8:33 am


I thought I'd included this article from "La Petit Perisian." It gives a complete and somewhat graphic description of the Ford accident that injured Ford Rep. Depasse and killed his Mechanician, M. Esnault. Evidently the accident occurred the Monday prior to the Grand Prix.

The newspaper claims "le plus fort tirage des journaux du monde entier." "the highest circulation of newspapers worldwide."

IMG_1758.PNG
online translator
IMG_1759.PNG

User avatar

Topic author
Rob
Posts: 387
Joined: Fri Jan 04, 2019 1:53 pm
First Name: Rob
Last Name: Heyen
Location: Eastern Nebraska

Re: More on Ford racing in France, 1911, and a big thank you.

Post by Rob » Fri Feb 08, 2019 5:40 pm

This "French Connection" is turning into a rabbit hole (that anyone reading along has been forced to go down). Soooo, we know a Ford ran in two of the four events it was scheduled for during the summer of 1911. It was disqualified from the light car race in late June, although it was photographed and at the start line when the people in charge finally ruled against them. Prior to the June 25th race, 1 Kilometer time trials were held, and one U.S.publication reported the Ford did well, averaging just under 70 mph for the distance:
IMG_1786.PNG
I've attempted to learn what cars competed, and how their times compared. I've finally found one French newspaper that gives some information. They only listed cup winners, but it gives an idea of where the Ford falls in line, with only the overall winner and one other cup winner running faster than the lowly Ford:
IMG_1787.PNG
It looks like there will be more to follow. It appears Ford France entered the Grand Prix and some events again in 1912. The question I have is, did they keep the Ford Special racer, and if so, maybe we can learn which of the Ford Special was sent to France.

User avatar

Topic author
Rob
Posts: 387
Joined: Fri Jan 04, 2019 1:53 pm
First Name: Rob
Last Name: Heyen
Location: Eastern Nebraska

Re: More on Ford racing in France, 1911, and a big thank you.

Post by Rob » Sat Feb 09, 2019 11:05 am

Initially I thought the French Ford Special racer might be the same motor we have. Gaston Plaintiff, New York Ford branch manager told a NY newspaper it had a 4 1/2 by 4 3/4 bore/stroke. However, Henri Depasse entered a racer again in 1912 for the Grand Prix. For this race, the classes of racers was published. Again, the Ford was in Class 6. And, this April French newspaper tells us the class limits. Our Ford is in the 2.3 liter to 3 liter class, meaning it's either a stock T 2.9 liter, or a Ford Special motor under 2 Liter. And, according to Ford drawings, there was a 192 cubic inch Ford Special motor. If Depasse still had the racer from 1911, it was reported to have larger valves, different timing (Bosch dual ignition is what the special motors used), and open motor (holes in the cylinder walls for breathing/additional exhaust).

April 1912 article:
IMG_1794.PNG
Online translation:
IMG_1796.PNG
The front page of the same newspaper, April 16th, 1912:
IMG_1798.PNG

User avatar

Kaiser
Posts: 262
Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2019 5:32 am
First Name: Leo
Last Name: van Stirum
Location: Netherlands
Board Member Since: 2016

Re: More on Ford racing in France, 1911, and a big thank you.

Post by Kaiser » Sat Feb 09, 2019 11:24 am

Rob you dig fantastic 'rabbit-holes' i love em !
When in trouble, do not fear, blame the second engineer ! 8-)
Leo van Stirum, Netherlands
'23 Huckster, '66 CJ5 daily driver


wayne sheldon
Posts: 1219
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 3:13 pm
First Name: Wayne
Last Name: Sheldon
Location: Grass Valley Califunny, USA
Board Member Since: 2005

Re: More on Ford racing in France, 1911, and a big thank you.

Post by wayne sheldon » Sat Feb 09, 2019 6:01 pm

Hey, I like this pace. Oh, there is a blond girl in a blue dress floating down! Is that a looking glass on the bureau?

All kidding aside, an interesting intersection of history with the Titanic there on the front page.
Thank you Rob!

User avatar

Topic author
Rob
Posts: 387
Joined: Fri Jan 04, 2019 1:53 pm
First Name: Rob
Last Name: Heyen
Location: Eastern Nebraska

Re: More on Ford racing in France, 1911, and a big thank you.

Post by Rob » Sat Feb 09, 2019 8:57 pm

Thanks guys.... This rabbit hole is turning into a coyote den.

Sooooooo, the Ford was disqualified for being too light (and not stock) at the start line in the light car event for 1911. Then wrecked at 80 mph while practicing for the Grand Prix. It did perform well, having one of the fastest times in the 1 Km time trials (69 mph), and finishing first in it's class and 2nd overall in France's biggest hill climb event.

That begged the question, what happened in 1912? Early articles showed Agent H. Depasse had entered Ford in the Grand Prix. In fact, he entered four Fords. Three in the light car Tour de France, and one in the open class Grand Prix race. I think we can presume the racer entered in the big car event would be the same Ford Special that performed so well in 1911. Below is an early revue of the 1912 events, and cars entered. The Grand Prix is listed first, with light car Tour de France in the second group. Online English translation is on the right. Click on the photo for the larger readable version:
IMG_1810.PNG
But what happened? No Ford is listed as competing in either event in the articles I've found.

Until now. I found a partial answer in this French publication:
IMG_1813.JPG
Three Fords did compete in the 1912 Tour de France:
IMG_1812.JPG
However............. those sneaky rascals! Translation below:
IMG_1815.PNG
Now to find out what happened to cause the Ford Special racer not to run......


wayne sheldon
Posts: 1219
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 3:13 pm
First Name: Wayne
Last Name: Sheldon
Location: Grass Valley Califunny, USA
Board Member Since: 2005

Re: More on Ford racing in France, 1911, and a big thank you.

Post by wayne sheldon » Sat Feb 09, 2019 9:15 pm

I meant to say "I like this PLACE"! Oh well. The "pace" works well also.
Looking forward to the next installment.
Thank you Rob!

User avatar

Topic author
Rob
Posts: 387
Joined: Fri Jan 04, 2019 1:53 pm
First Name: Rob
Last Name: Heyen
Location: Eastern Nebraska

Re: More on Ford racing in France, 1911, and a big thank you.

Post by Rob » Sun Feb 10, 2019 7:40 am

Thanks Wayne,
This may be the last piece. According to this report in the Horsless Age, the French may indeed have been trying to keep American automakers from entering their events. I did notice the French Grand Prix was moved late in the spring to a late summer date. We do know the two events the Ford ran in it was among the leaders. The Ford Special racers were having the same success in the U.S. in 1911:
IMG_1819.PNG

User avatar

Topic author
Rob
Posts: 387
Joined: Fri Jan 04, 2019 1:53 pm
First Name: Rob
Last Name: Heyen
Location: Eastern Nebraska

Re: More on Ford racing in France, 1911, and a big thank you.

Post by Rob » Sun Feb 10, 2019 9:40 am

Dug up a little more. As of late June, the Ford Special is still scheduled to run in the 1912 French Grand Prix:
IMG_1828.JPG
Motor Age reports "the Ford is is the stock model with chassis stripped for racing and lighter reciprocating parts." It also appears the racer is participating in the big car class.

This is the same description used in articles about the 1911 Ford Special racer. I suspect the "lighter reciprocating parts" may be the unique flywheel used on the special racers, minus magnets or other mag parts. Now to learn if the Ford was disqualified, or if some other misfortune befell it.


wayne sheldon
Posts: 1219
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 3:13 pm
First Name: Wayne
Last Name: Sheldon
Location: Grass Valley Califunny, USA
Board Member Since: 2005

Re: More on Ford racing in France, 1911, and a big thank you.

Post by wayne sheldon » Sun Feb 10, 2019 1:26 pm

Automobile racing, especially the early eras, has always fascinated me. I have noticed a continual "tweaking" of the rules pretty much throughout racing history. I remember back in the '60s when a turbine powered car ran in the Indy 500. It did not finish due to a transmission failure. However, had led the race for most of the laps before that failure. By the next year? Rules changed. Gee, ya think maybe nobody else wanted to compete with that?
I have read hundreds of articles, studied hundreds of era photos, both European and American cars and races. I have noticed a lot of European cars coming to America to compete in races of various kinds here. Very few of those closely resembled the cars they manufactured and sold to their customers. Engines were bigger, chassis sometimes shorter. Wire wheels may or may not have been regular factory offerings, because wire wheels were much more common on European cars in those days (shortage of appropriate wood supplies for spokes). So it is interesting that they would enforce "rules" to keep out an only slightly modified chassis with a slightly larger engined American car with wire wheels on it.
Maybe they were still upset by the New York to Paris race? The American entry was a "last year's model" taken out of the warehouse and modified only slightly in order to carry more supplies than usual. Mechanically, it was stock factory. It beat fair and square the custom built huge specials entered by European makers. One French stock entry started that race, but didn't even make it to Denver.
Just a few thoughts.

Thanks Rob!

User avatar

Topic author
Rob
Posts: 387
Joined: Fri Jan 04, 2019 1:53 pm
First Name: Rob
Last Name: Heyen
Location: Eastern Nebraska

Re: More on Ford racing in France, 1911, and a big thank you.

Post by Rob » Sun Feb 10, 2019 2:51 pm

Thank you Wayne. I've learned a little more about the 1912 Grand Prix and Ford. Since this thread is getting long, and to have searches in the future go to the appropriate thread (in case anyone else ever wants to chase this story) I'm switching over to a 1912 thread. It'll be a little redundant with the 1912 information posted directly above this. However, there will be new info regarding the 1912 Grand Prix, and the Ford Special that was ready to make the two day race.


wayne sheldon
Posts: 1219
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 3:13 pm
First Name: Wayne
Last Name: Sheldon
Location: Grass Valley Califunny, USA
Board Member Since: 2005

Re: More on Ford racing in France, 1911, and a big thank you.

Post by wayne sheldon » Sun Feb 10, 2019 11:57 pm

I look forward to it! Thank you Rob!

Post Reply Previous topicNext topic