Transmission Oil Video

Discuss all things Model T related.
Forum rules
If you need help logging in, or have question about how something works, use the Support forum located here Support Forum
Complete set of Forum Rules Forum Rules

Topic author
MadMax
Posts: 47
Joined: Tue Feb 19, 2019 3:59 pm
First Name: Max
Last Name: Lindsay
Location: Newport News, VA

Transmission Oil Video

Post by MadMax » Thu Apr 30, 2020 10:28 am

I'm only about 3 years into the Model T ownership world so i'm still a bit of a newbie. While doing events, folks ask about how the transmission/brakes work (as you are all well familiar with both the questions and the answers). I was thinking that it would be a cool idea to make a temporary Plexiglass replacement for the transmission cover. As the saying goes, a picture is worth a thousand words and seeing it yourself is even better than a picture. So I made one.
Model T Transmission Cover.jpg
Then I started thinking, "What would happen if I started the engine??" A good buddy in our Model T club (Jay from Williamsburg) started egging me on do to it, so I did. I took video without the screen in and with the screen in.
Model T Transmission Cover 2.jpg
After showing him the results, he noted that he had modified his screen and was wondering if it was any better. I took the drive up and we did the same video with his car. Last but not least, I decided to use my crappy video editing software and lousy skills to put them side by side in a video.

With that, here are the videos for your information, interest, boredom…whatever… 😉

This is my car without the screen:
https://youtu.be/2m-za3o-lWo

This is my car with the screen:
https://youtu.be/I1w2vFTRUvQ

This is Jay’s with the screen:
https://youtu.be/HnCsQO4Lj58

This is the side-by-side I just made of Jay’s and mine (there is no audio... note about the lousy skills... ha ha ha:
https://youtu.be/dXimnKoDPSI

There has been a lot of back and forth about this in my group already as well as on Facebook. Please play nice when commenting. :)

User avatar

Richard G
Posts: 270
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 10:29 pm
First Name: Richard
Last Name: Grzegorowicz
Location: Hartland VT

Re: Transmission Oil Video

Post by Richard G » Thu Apr 30, 2020 11:18 am

THANK YOU MAX, THAT IS VERY INTERESTING INDEED, INTERESTED TO KNOW WAS THE OIL UP TO OPERATING TEMPITURE ? would the hot oil pass thru the screen faster, yes i think the larger hole would allow smaller particals to pass through, even so, that screen is capituring a great amount of floaters that otherwise would have freedom to circulate, i like that idea with the magnet , makes one think can there be two magnets be stood on edge giving a larger surface to collect floaters, with that clear cover you could see if this would be possable, thank you both very much, great food for thought.


JohnM
Posts: 84
Joined: Sun Mar 24, 2019 8:22 pm
First Name: John
Last Name: Michaelree
Location: st louis
MTFCA Number: 50389

Re: Transmission Oil Video

Post by JohnM » Thu Apr 30, 2020 11:20 am

:idea: Very cool! A picture IS worth a thousand words. Next would be to drive it and show the transmission in action. Reverse, low, and high. :idea:

User avatar

Quickm007
Posts: 722
Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2019 10:58 am
First Name: Mario
Last Name: Brossard
Location: Canada
MTFCA Number: 30981
MTFCI Number: 30981
Board Member Since: 1999

Re: Transmission Oil Video

Post by Quickm007 » Thu Apr 30, 2020 11:22 am

First, Thank you sharing this video. I would say very interesting and that showing the Outside oil line kit which delivers extra oil to the front motor bearings to insure proper lubrication from Magneto is a nice pathway on my humble opinion after viewing the video.
Super Mario Bross ;)

1911 Touring
1914 race car project

User avatar

RajoRacer
Posts: 1994
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 12:18 pm
First Name: Steve
Last Name: Tomaso
Location: Longbranch, WA
MTFCA Number: 14972
MTFCI Number: 15411
Board Member Since: 2001

Re: Transmission Oil Video

Post by RajoRacer » Thu Apr 30, 2020 11:24 am

Very well done experiment, indeed ! It seems that when those accessory oil screens first appeared on the market, the screen holes were quite larger than what's currently made and I believe the small screen holes result in holding more oil which is quite apparent in your video and possibly could be the culprit in oil leaks at the ball cap area due to the large reservoir of oil holding back there ? I have a few "era" screens that are 1/2 the length with larger holes which drop oil onto the bands directly.


JohnM
Posts: 84
Joined: Sun Mar 24, 2019 8:22 pm
First Name: John
Last Name: Michaelree
Location: st louis
MTFCA Number: 50389

Re: Transmission Oil Video

Post by JohnM » Thu Apr 30, 2020 12:00 pm

Without the screen, it appears that the drums are getting a continuous flush of oil, possibly keeping them relatively cooler. If I were to modify the screen at all, I would put more or larger holes on the upper part, and let the lower screen catch debris. What say you? :?:


jab35
Posts: 392
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 12:28 pm
First Name: James
Last Name: Bartsch
Location: Dryden, NY 13053
MTFCA Number: 30615
MTFCA Life Member: YES

Re: Transmission Oil Video

Post by jab35 » Thu Apr 30, 2020 12:07 pm

Max: Thanks for sharing, this is really good information, and a considerable effort to produce, well done.

Were both engines running at similar engine temperature and rpm, and using same viscosity oil in the side by side comparisons? The retained oil on your screen was a surprise to me, but as noted, punching drainage holes in the rear of the screen negates most of the filtration process. Again, thanks for this visual example, jb


RalphS in NE Oregon
Posts: 43
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 2:23 pm
First Name: Ralph
Last Name: Swinehart
Location: Enterprise, Oregon
MTFCA Number: 1386
MTFCI Number: 20289

Re: Transmission Oil Video

Post by RalphS in NE Oregon » Thu Apr 30, 2020 12:10 pm

Interesting video. That's the trouble with screens; if you make the holes big enough to not clog up with the junk you are trying to collect, they don't catch much. It would be really interesting to do comparison tests of the two screen types after a few hundred miles, if both engines have the same type of bands.

User avatar

Oldav8tor
Posts: 894
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 11:39 am
First Name: Tim
Last Name: Juhl
Location: Thumb of Michigan
MTFCA Number: 50297
MTFCI Number: 24810

Re: Transmission Oil Video

Post by Oldav8tor » Thu Apr 30, 2020 12:29 pm

I have a small hole screen - I learned on last year's Covered Bridge tour that the small holes can be plugged with sludge resulting in less than optimal oil flow to the bands. While it might lose some filtering efficiency, some larger holes over the bands might be a good idea to insure continued oil flow. Even with the larger holes I would think that fuzz and larger pieces of crud would be caught. The magnet is useful in collecting any tiny ferrous particles that go washing by. Rather than depend upon the "filter" we all know that it is important to have frequent oil changes to remove the crud that would be caught by a filter in a modern car. What do you think, bigger holes or not?
1917 Touring
1946 Aeronca Champ
1952 Willys M38a1 Jeep
1953 Ford Jubilee Tractor

User avatar

Steve Jelf
Posts: 3490
Joined: Fri Jan 04, 2019 9:37 pm
First Name: Steve
Last Name: Jelf
Location: Parkerfield, Kansas
MTFCA Number: 16175
MTFCI Number: 14758
Board Member Since: 2007
Contact:

Re: Transmission Oil Video

Post by Steve Jelf » Thu Apr 30, 2020 1:10 pm

In the unaltered screen, does the oil back up above the magnet? No. Obviously it's going through the small holes. Can the small holes eventually be plugged? Yes, if a damaged drum shreds its lining, or if you neglect oil changes and the maintenance that goes with them.

The magnet is a very good thing. Especially with a freshly rebuilt engine, it removes a lot of abrasive metal debris.
The inevitable often happens.
1915 Runabout
1923 Touring

User avatar

RajoRacer
Posts: 1994
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 12:18 pm
First Name: Steve
Last Name: Tomaso
Location: Longbranch, WA
MTFCA Number: 14972
MTFCI Number: 15411
Board Member Since: 2001

Re: Transmission Oil Video

Post by RajoRacer » Thu Apr 30, 2020 2:41 pm

Here's an "era" accessory screen - note the small funnel at the rear end to let the oil not build up which considering the size of the holes, I can't see it being too helpful unless your oil was as thick as molasses !
Attachments
era oil screen.JPG

User avatar

Steve Jelf
Posts: 3490
Joined: Fri Jan 04, 2019 9:37 pm
First Name: Steve
Last Name: Jelf
Location: Parkerfield, Kansas
MTFCA Number: 16175
MTFCI Number: 14758
Board Member Since: 2007
Contact:

Re: Transmission Oil Video

Post by Steve Jelf » Thu Apr 30, 2020 2:49 pm

By the way, Max, those Phillips screws are incorrect. :D
The inevitable often happens.
1915 Runabout
1923 Touring

User avatar

Oldav8tor
Posts: 894
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 11:39 am
First Name: Tim
Last Name: Juhl
Location: Thumb of Michigan
MTFCA Number: 50297
MTFCI Number: 24810

Re: Transmission Oil Video

Post by Oldav8tor » Thu Apr 30, 2020 5:02 pm

My experience was with a recently rebuilt engine which may explain a little more debris than normal. I change oil frequently and clean the screen each time....indeed, I clean the screen any time I have the cover off. That said, I'm seriously considering adding some additional holes to make sure the oil keeps flowing. The existence of the magnet catches the majority of ferrous particles which I would think would be the most worrisome. Dirty oil can only be dealt with by draining it.

The fine part of the screen is over the clutch area. The screen both directs the oil to the back of the transmission and restricts it's flow. I wonder what you think about drilling a hole in both rear side plates just to let the oil out if the screen gets clogged?
1917 Touring
1946 Aeronca Champ
1952 Willys M38a1 Jeep
1953 Ford Jubilee Tractor

User avatar

Duey_C
Posts: 1106
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 12:28 pm
First Name: Duane
Last Name: Cooley
Location: central MN
MTFCA Number: 32488
Board Member Since: 2015

Re: Transmission Oil Video

Post by Duey_C » Thu Apr 30, 2020 7:03 pm

Verry Interesting indeed!
Attachments
Indeed!
Indeed!
Arte Johnson.jpeg (37.5 KiB) Viewed 4433 times
Since I lost my mind mind, I feel more liberated


Topic author
MadMax
Posts: 47
Joined: Tue Feb 19, 2019 3:59 pm
First Name: Max
Last Name: Lindsay
Location: Newport News, VA

Re: Transmission Oil Video

Post by MadMax » Thu Apr 30, 2020 10:12 pm

Wow! I started writing this back 2 hours ago... in the process of trying to get a picture off my phone, I almost killed it! :)

Many thanks for the comments, all!

Ha ha ha, Steve, believe it or not, I was debating how much I wanted something that looked original... well, besides the stainless steel. :)

As far as the temperature, the first video I posted was actually the second video I did with the car running. By that time, the oil would have been up to temp or just under temp. In the first video, I started the car cold. Here is the first video (cold running oil):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tng-mHuJymU

I didn’t post this one as the cold oil behaved differently and covered the inside of the cover making it harder to see (I'm guessing it was the cold oil). You can tell by just watching how it catches on the Plexiglass. It stuck to the Plexiglass more and stayed on it thicker in the one posted in this thread.

Next thought - on this same video, you’ll notice that my brake band is looking ragged. A guy from Lang's suggested that since the car sat for a while without being run, the bands may have dry rotted? This brings us to the conversation about the screen clogging. My big regret from this was that I cleaned the screen when I first pulled it out. I wish I had before and after videos with the dirty screen. I did manage to get a few photos of it beforehand and here’s what it looked like. You can see how caked it was.
IMG_1728.JPEG
IMG_1726.JPEG


As someone noted, the screen has a purpose, but if you don’t clean it, it may not be doing much. I agree that having a couple holes in the bottom section could be a good idea as long as most of the flow doesn’t go through them. Jay’s may be a bit too much flow through them. I think the enlarged holes at the top is a good idea.

When Jay and I were talking, I mentioned that I will try to get video of the tranny while I"m driving it. This may be a bit more complicated for a couple reasons. First is running without the floor boards in and having the stationary camera there. Tougher though will be lighting. Because of the angle the plate sits, it reflects everything. I'll likely put the top up to run it and then get LED lights from the side to light it up.

We'll see!


Alan Long
Posts: 141
Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2019 2:33 am
First Name: Alan
Last Name: Long
Location: Western Australia

Re: Transmission Oil Video

Post by Alan Long » Fri May 01, 2020 1:00 am

Wow, I agree with the other posts that this is a real interesting experiment and watching the Oil “back up”
had me worried for awhile and it explains the slight leak I have at the bottom of my Cover.

The oil flow didn’t appear the alter much between idle and a faster rpm?

I have used a Filter for years thinking it’s a good idea.I also change oil twice a year and clean the Filter.
There has never been any signs of overheating in the transmission due to lack of oil. I suppose some may splash up from the Sump to the underside of the Filter? Having seen the experiment I’m in two minds now.
I use 20W50 Oil Alan in Australia

User avatar

rnwilliams
Posts: 113
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 11:31 pm
First Name: Richard (Ricky)
Last Name: Williams
Location: Humboldt, TN
MTFCA Number: 28991
MTFCI Number: 23852
Contact:

Re: Transmission Oil Video

Post by rnwilliams » Fri May 01, 2020 8:26 am

I know some of you won't agree but after two cracked low speed drums I took my screen out. I think the drums don't get enough oil to keep them cool with the screen in. Just think, this video shows the engine running with a fresh clean screen. I just change my oil often. No Problems. I would love to hear comments.
Richard Williams, Humboldt, TN
President, Tennessee T's inc.

User avatar

Mark Gregush
Posts: 2967
Joined: Sat Jan 05, 2019 1:57 pm
First Name: Mark
Last Name: Gregush
Location: Portland Or
Board Member Since: 1999

Re: Transmission Oil Video

Post by Mark Gregush » Fri May 01, 2020 9:06 am

When the oil is pumped into the screened area it is getting pushed thru the mesh it's not just gravity flow, you will note that it isn't backing up into the area where the band oil holes are. I have watched videos and tried it myself in the past with the clear cover on, the flow changes at higher RPMs. My clear cover but is ok to watch but not film thru,it kinda fogged up. I have the screen like Steve T shows, more to trap the larger lint that could plug the oil tube also helps direct most of the oil over the bands.
I know the voices aren't real but damn they have some good ideas! :shock:

1925 Cut down pickup
1920 Dodge touring
1948 Ford F2 pickup


Topic author
MadMax
Posts: 47
Joined: Tue Feb 19, 2019 3:59 pm
First Name: Max
Last Name: Lindsay
Location: Newport News, VA

Re: Transmission Oil Video

Post by MadMax » Fri May 01, 2020 1:15 pm

There are two lessons I learned from this that I think are important for everyone to understand:

1 - the screens do their job!... but!
2 - make sure to open the cover and clean them

Seeing the sludge in mine, I imagine there was a lack of oil going through the holes. As Mark from Virginia Beach said though, remember that the oil is also being slung around at the aft end of the transmission by the clutch knuckles....

Which makes me want to film the transmission while driving and without the screen in just to see what happens. Something tells me that the oil will REALLY be flying around and nothing will be visible, but I'm looking forward to giving it a shot. Maybe Sunday!

User avatar

Quickm007
Posts: 722
Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2019 10:58 am
First Name: Mario
Last Name: Brossard
Location: Canada
MTFCA Number: 30981
MTFCI Number: 30981
Board Member Since: 1999

Re: Transmission Oil Video

Post by Quickm007 » Fri May 01, 2020 1:24 pm

Again Max, Thank you sharing these all videos. Very instructive for me. I started having some doubts if I will continue keeping my screen... I think either the drums don't get enough oil to keep them cool with the screen in.
Super Mario Bross ;)

1911 Touring
1914 race car project

User avatar

Richard G
Posts: 270
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 10:29 pm
First Name: Richard
Last Name: Grzegorowicz
Location: Hartland VT

Re: Transmission Oil Video

Post by Richard G » Fri May 01, 2020 1:39 pm

RICK, CRACKED DRUM'S, ITS MY THOUGHT'S , LACK OF OIL WONT CRACK A STEEL DRUM BY ITS SELF, FRICTION CAUSED BY MOVEMENT UNDER STRESS WOULD BE THE CULPRIT AS WELL, WHAT TYPE DRIVING DO YOU DO, HILLY, STOP AND GO, HOW HARD DO YOU NEED TO PUSH THE DRIVE PEDAL, TO GET UNDER WAY, ALL THE DRUMS ARE SPINNING WHEN SETTING, CARE NOT TO REV THE ENGINE TO HIGH WHEN STARTING OFF, --IN ORDER TO GET MOVING ONE MUST STOP THE LOW SPEED DRUM FROM ROTATING, COMPLETELY, ANY SLIPPING WILL CAUSE FRICTION AND FRICTION WILL CAUSE HEAT, VERY QUICKLY, AND THIS IS WHERE THE PROBLEM CAN BE MADE WORSE BY NOT ENOUGH OIL PASSING OVER THE DRUM TO HELP COOL IT, REMEMBERING THE THE OIL IN A ENGINE CAN REACH A TEMPERATURE OVER 300 DEGREE'S AND HIGHER,THIS IS WHERE THE POT WILL GET STICKY,AND WHERE UNDERSTANDING IS IMPORTANT,---DEPENDING THE TYPE OIL USED, FRICTION CAN BE REDUCED AND STOPING THAT DRUM FROM ROTATING WILL TAKE MORE PRESSURE ON THAT DRIVE PEDAL, THE ONLY TIME THE LOW PEDAL IS NEEDED IS TO GET THE CAR UNDER WAY, AND MUST BE HELD SO THE BAND HAS STOP'D ANY ROTATION OF THE DRUM , ALLOWING THE TRIPLE GEARS TO DO THERE JOB, NOW THE NEXT MOVEMENT IS IMPORTANT TOO, WHEN YOU GET UP TO SPEED AND READY TO SHIFT TO DIRECT DRIVE LET THE PEDAL BACK, AND DOWN THROTTLE SLIGHTLY TO LET THINGS CATCH UP , AND BEFORE THE PEDAL IS FULLY RELEASED START THROTTLING UP EASY, TO MAKE A SMOOTH TRANSITION , DRIVING A MODEL T CAN BE TRICK'Y YOU HAVE BOTH FEET BOTH HANDS FLAILING ABOUT TO MAKE A PILE OF STEEL GET UNDER WAY THAT WOULD RATHER JUST SET THERE AND BE LEFT ALONE. MY THOUGHTS , THAT CLEAR COVER IS A SUPER IDEA, NOW ONE CAN ADDRESS WHAT MAY BE CAUSING PROBLEMS, THE FILTER LIKE ANY FILTER, MUST BE SERVICED FREQUENTLY TO INSURE PROPER FILTRATION , BEING ABLE TO WATCH THIS SYSTEM WORK WILL BE HELPFULL IN MAKING NEEDED IMPROVEMENTS , MY HAT IS OFF TO YOU MAX,


Jerry VanOoteghem
Posts: 676
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 4:06 pm
First Name: Jerry
Last Name: VanOoteghem
Location: S.E. Michigan

Re: Transmission Oil Video

Post by Jerry VanOoteghem » Fri May 01, 2020 1:41 pm

Even though the screened area may become clogged, it's not like ALL the oil will gather there. There's still going to be hurricane of oil flinging all over the place. Oil that gets flung towards the clogged/filled screen will just deflect off to other areas. I think the good they do in catching, not just sludge, but the occasional hunk of metal, outweighs any downside to their use. How many times have we seen a posting here entitled, "where did this come from" with regard to some chunk of metal picked up by the screen? How many times has that been a disaster averted? In the meanwhile, have we ever heard of somebody stating, "the oil screen ruined my engine/transmission"?


Topic author
MadMax
Posts: 47
Joined: Tue Feb 19, 2019 3:59 pm
First Name: Max
Last Name: Lindsay
Location: Newport News, VA

Re: Transmission Oil Video

Post by MadMax » Fri May 01, 2020 4:10 pm

I’m with you Jerry. I’m debating on whether to a a single larger hole as far aft as possible. That would only be able to handle so much oil and the screen would still be getting a lot of business.

I think this is more than speculation, but I’m thinking that rotating the magnet so that it is parallel to the car is better than perpendicular. If you look at that first picture (showing the underside of the screen), it is clear that the holes under it are blocked off by the magnet. By rotating it, the magnet would leave more room between itself and the dip allowing the oils to get under. Someone mentioned this above: roll it 90 degrees in addition to rotating it would open more holes. I’d think another positive would be that more magnet surface are would be exposed. The negative would be that the obstruction forces the oil to flow around it and increasing chances of picking up junk in the oil. No sure if there would be enough room between the magnet and the plate either.

I wish I had a picture the first time I pulled the cover after adding the screen and magnet. I’m thinking with great lighting and a really good lens, a picture could have really show the alignment of the iron dust/filings that collected on it. It was a rounded square of slime and that slime was the iron impregnated in the oil (better said, the oil stick embedded in and around the filings. A guy across the street is a great photographer. I may mention it to him to try to get his interest. I’d bet you could get a good picture showing the dust aligning with the magnet.


Topic author
MadMax
Posts: 47
Joined: Tue Feb 19, 2019 3:59 pm
First Name: Max
Last Name: Lindsay
Location: Newport News, VA

Re: Transmission Oil Video

Post by MadMax » Fri May 01, 2020 4:10 pm

I’m with you Jerry. I’m debating on whether to a a single larger hole as far aft as possible. That would only be able to handle so much oil and the screen would still be getting a lot of business.

I think this is more than speculation, but I’m thinking that rotating the magnet so that it is parallel to the car is better than perpendicular. If you look at that first picture (showing the underside of the screen), it is clear that the holes under it are blocked off by the magnet. By rotating it, the magnet would leave more room between itself and the dip allowing the oils to get under. Someone mentioned this above: roll it 90 degrees in addition to rotating it would open more holes. I’d think another positive would be that more magnet surface are would be exposed. The negative would be that the obstruction forces the oil to flow around it and increasing chances of picking up junk in the oil. No sure if there would be enough room between the magnet and the plate either.

I wish I had a picture the first time I pulled the cover after adding the screen and magnet. I’m thinking with great lighting and a really good lens, a picture could have really show the alignment of the iron dust/filings that collected on it. It was a rounded square of slime and that slime was the iron impregnated in the oil (better said, the oil stick embedded in and around the filings. A guy across the street is a great photographer. I may mention it to him to try to get his interest. I’d bet you could get a good picture showing the dust aligning with the magnet.


DHort
Posts: 1131
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 1:30 pm
First Name: David
Last Name: Hjortnaes
Location: Men Falls, WI
MTFCA Number: 28762
MTFCI Number: 22402

Re: Transmission Oil Video

Post by DHort » Fri May 01, 2020 6:03 pm

If you hold the screen in your hand and hold the cover over the screen you will see that the amount of space there is probably not more than a pint. If you have 3+ quarts of oil in your engine, the amount between the screen and cover is negligible. Highly unlikely you could blame the screen for any damage to your engine.

I think the best place for the magnet is in the middle of the screen. That way oil flows to both sides of the magnet AND underneath the magnet. If you think you need more oil in the back the best place to place 2 larger holes would be in the corners. That way you are still using the screen as much as possible, and 2 holes in the corners should not reduce the filtering capacity of the screen by very much. Remember the screen is tilted downward so oil will always flow to the rear of the screen.


halftracknut
Posts: 81
Joined: Sun Jan 05, 2020 11:32 pm
First Name: randy
Last Name: lee

Re: Transmission Oil Video

Post by halftracknut » Fri May 01, 2020 6:23 pm

What a Great video! :o 8-) Just what I wanted to see....I think I will open up the upper holes to 1/4...5/16...3/8 respectively and leave the screen alone...and considering Hanks post from last year about his screen magnet that went south...I will remove my magnet and place a very strong magnet on top of the cover plate then the metal will stick to the cover...thanks again for the video....i think i will cut a window for mine...rl


halftracknut
Posts: 81
Joined: Sun Jan 05, 2020 11:32 pm
First Name: randy
Last Name: lee

Re: Transmission Oil Video

Post by halftracknut » Sat May 02, 2020 12:01 pm

Update for my post ...I drilled two of 4 holes in front to 5/16 and 3/8, the 3/8 hole is directly over the brake band....I drove the car warmed the oil came back to shop removed the cover as fast as I could (under a minute) and used my laser temp meter and temp was 154 on brake drum the other 2 drums were 142....also replaced magnet with one of those high strength ones safety wired in place...rl


Topic author
MadMax
Posts: 47
Joined: Tue Feb 19, 2019 3:59 pm
First Name: Max
Last Name: Lindsay
Location: Newport News, VA

Re: Transmission Oil Video

Post by MadMax » Sat May 02, 2020 6:14 pm

Great that you got out there and did that! When you changed magnets, did you us one of those 'rare earth' ones that could hold a sherman tank to a steel beam? :lol: I'm curious to see what it will catch.

I'm liking the idea of the and additional hole or two in the far aft corner/edge of the screen. LIke someone said, the screen will still get business, but oil will get out in higher volume.

Did you take temp readings before the holes were made? I would have forgotten (just like I should have done the video before I cleaned my screen!).

Anyways... here are two more videos to check out except this time the CAR WAS MOVING. :D They are hard to really see too much, but you can see the clutch start rotating. The lighting is a pain and I need to try it again with the top up to stop the glare/reflection... then I could likey get a handheld light to get the right lighting. Of course, this is all while trying to drive the car by myself. Ha ha ha

https://youtu.be/wBXTSqmdYL8

https://youtu.be/3G5SxOqBKZw

I was really expecting the clutch to throw a lot of oil around, but hardly any did and the oil that did likely was oil that dripped from the clear cover plate.


halftracknut
Posts: 81
Joined: Sun Jan 05, 2020 11:32 pm
First Name: randy
Last Name: lee

Re: Transmission Oil Video

Post by halftracknut » Sat May 02, 2020 7:20 pm

yes, I did use a neodymium magnet...I was thinking about switching the magnet about 10 days ago and in searching the forums found hank lee's post about the death of his magnet and damage it caused....that is when I ordered the HyPo new magnet and as luck would have it a few days later I read your post on your screen....that made me think why not make the brake band hole larger....Great idea and it made my brake drum run cooler....Ok, you won't believe this but what started all this for me was I needed to adjust my brake band ...I drove my car down a long hill and had a lot of brake fade so I pull it in the shop and took temp of brake drum...over 380 and reverse and low were around 100 cooler so I think your holes were the answer...temps taken with a cheap Harbor Freight laser gauge...I kind of told the story backwards but you get the idea.. :lol: rl


JohnM
Posts: 84
Joined: Sun Mar 24, 2019 8:22 pm
First Name: John
Last Name: Michaelree
Location: st louis
MTFCA Number: 50389

Re: Transmission Oil Video

Post by JohnM » Sat May 02, 2020 8:59 pm

Very cool! Thank you for posting the videos.


Scott C.
Posts: 497
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 11:44 am
First Name: Scott
Last Name: Clements
Location: Waynetown Indiana
MTFCA Number: 49592

Re: Transmission Oil Video

Post by Scott C. » Sat May 02, 2020 9:31 pm

This is good stuff!! Did you happen to make a video of driving with the screen installed? I recently installed a screen in my 26 coupe. I have noticed that is now leaking oil from the hogshead. It appears to be coming out around the pedal shafts. From your videos, I can see why it would!


tdump
Posts: 625
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 7:00 pm
First Name: Mack
Last Name: Cole
Location: North Carolina

Re: Transmission Oil Video

Post by tdump » Sat May 02, 2020 9:56 pm

I have often wondered what that would look like, thanks for posting this.

My last order of parts I got a outside oil line and a filter screen.It has a magnet .I can't help but laugh everytime I see a magnet in a screen in a Model T because,there over a dozen of them spinning around the entire time the engine is running. UNless this small square magnet is somehow different,what is the incentive for the trash to come to this magnet instead of riding round and round on 1 of the horseshoes?' And of course I needed a good oil plug and I opted for the 1 with a build in magnet. Again, I don't know what would give crud the desire to be drawn to that little thing.But I guess it will make me feel better when I see crud on it and I can remove it.
If you can't help em, don't hinder em'


Scott_Conger
Posts: 2806
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 11:18 am
First Name: Scott
Last Name: Conger
Location: Clark, WY
Board Member Since: 2005

Re: Transmission Oil Video

Post by Scott_Conger » Sat May 02, 2020 10:03 pm

255 g's at flywheel perimeter at 1000RPM with low gauss magnets vs 1 g at the filter with a high gauss magnet
Scott Conger

Full Flow Float Valves - deliver fuel like Henry intended!


Scott C.
Posts: 497
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 11:44 am
First Name: Scott
Last Name: Clements
Location: Waynetown Indiana
MTFCA Number: 49592

Re: Transmission Oil Video

Post by Scott C. » Sat May 02, 2020 11:04 pm

My coupe has an oil line, but my roadster does not. I also put a screen in the roadster, but have not noticed a leak on it yet? I am really curious to see a video with the screen installed while driving!!


Scott C.
Posts: 497
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 11:44 am
First Name: Scott
Last Name: Clements
Location: Waynetown Indiana
MTFCA Number: 49592

Re: Transmission Oil Video

Post by Scott C. » Sun May 03, 2020 2:11 pm

Watching these videos again today, clearly while driving, most of the oil is flowing down around the drums. I am inclined to think that the presence of the screen redirects the majority of the oil to the rear. Thus, starving the bands and drums of full oil flow. One would think that this should cause excessive heat build up in the drums? So, if one uses these screens, increasing the diameter of the band oil holes would be a must in order to keep sufficient oil flow. Maybe even slot them instead of round holes? I am inclined to remove the screens and go back as Henry designed them to be.


Scott_Conger
Posts: 2806
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 11:18 am
First Name: Scott
Last Name: Conger
Location: Clark, WY
Board Member Since: 2005

Re: Transmission Oil Video

Post by Scott_Conger » Sun May 03, 2020 2:50 pm

I am inclined to think that the presence of the screen redirects the majority of the oil to the rear. Thus, starving the bands and drums of full oil flow.
While you may conclude this, I cannot in any way come to the same conclusion. There are 4 quarts of oil in the car. Once started, the oil that gets caught by the filter flows downward to the screen and then promptly backs up to it's capacity, which is what? Perhaps an entire cup? HORRORS!

The MT500 guys run a fraction of the recommended oil at speeds that defy sanity. My transmission can spare 1 cup of oil out of 4 quarts at any one time. Now if you are interested in increasing size of the few holes in the spill-way over the bands, I think that'd actually be a great idea as the screen is supplied with more oil than it can digest, so the feed portion of the device is more than adequate.

Believe me, just because the video is impressive and instructive, just be sure to make sure you're learning the lesson being taught: The filter filters oil, but only retains a tiny fraction of the sump's volume at any given time and believe me, there's tons of oil still getting on the bands.
Scott Conger

Full Flow Float Valves - deliver fuel like Henry intended!

User avatar

Richard G
Posts: 270
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 10:29 pm
First Name: Richard
Last Name: Grzegorowicz
Location: Hartland VT

Re: Transmission Oil Video

Post by Richard G » Sun May 03, 2020 3:43 pm

HALF TRACK DID A TEMPERATURE TEST, BY DRIVING THE CAR AND BRINGING THINGS UP TO OPERATING TEMP, FROM HIS REPORT, TEMP WITHIN THE TRANSMISSION WERE AROUND 380 DEG, THAT SEEMS A LITTLE COOL, BUT I'M THINKING THERE WILL BE OTHERS THAT MIGHT RUN A HIGHER TEMP UNDER DIFFERANT DRIVING CONDITIONS, THERE IS MANY FACTORS AT WORK HERE, DRAGGING BANDS, SLIPPING BANDS, ENGINE RUNNING HOTTER BECAUSE OF RADIATOR NOT COOLING , CAR OVER LOADED WITH RIDERS . ECT, BOTTOM LINE WHAT A GREAT IDEA TO PUT THE CLEAR COVER TO SEE WHAT,S GOING ON IN THERE, I REMEMBER MANY YEARS AGO I WAS WORKING AT A FORD DEALERSHIP AND WE GOT A LIFT PUT IN, WOW THAT WAS SOMETHING, GOOD BYE CREEPER, THE ENGINE IN MY 37 FORD NEEDED NEW ROD BERGS, JUST FOR FUN I STARTED IT UP AFTER I TOOK THE PAN OFF, TO SEE SOMETHING THAT YOU WERE JUST GUESSING AT THAT WAS TAKING PLACE IN THERE,HOLEY SMOKE, THAT CRANK AT IDLE WAS A BLUR, SEEING THAT ALL THOSE MANY YEARS AGO GAVE ME A LIFE TIME OF RESPECT FOR HOW THINGS WORK. WHY IS IT THE SLUDGE DON'T COLLECT ON THE MAGNETS ON THE FLY WHEEL, WOULD IT BE POSSIBLE TO MAGNETIZE THE SCREEN WITH SOME LOW VOLTAGE, THERE ARE SOME GREAT MINDS OUT THERE AND ALL IT TAKES IS A IDEA TO GET THINGS GOING. SEE WHAT YOU STARTED MAD MAX, THANK YOU FOR YOU EFFORTS, ITS THINGS LIKE THIS THAT MAKE CHANGE FOR THE BETTER.


Colin Mavins
Posts: 217
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 1:36 pm
First Name: Colin
Last Name: Mavins
Location: Winnipeg Canada
MTFCA Number: 1853

Re: Transmission Oil Video

Post by Colin Mavins » Sun May 03, 2020 5:48 pm

I have found this interesting ,after the magnet took out the transmission post I removed the magnet as there was enough space for it to get out. I never though of wiring it in place, my screen does have a long slot not holes I have to guess it came that way it was installed by Dad in 1995 I do get oil leakage from the back of my cover which I can't stop with out glue and does leak more at the pedal holes with the screen in than with the screen out.


Scott C.
Posts: 497
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 11:44 am
First Name: Scott
Last Name: Clements
Location: Waynetown Indiana
MTFCA Number: 49592

Re: Transmission Oil Video

Post by Scott C. » Sun May 03, 2020 8:31 pm

Today, I pulled the cover off my roadster to adjust the brake band. There was some crud on the magnet and on the screen, but nothing major at all. I enlarged the 4 holes to 1/4, 5/16, 3/8 and 3/8. Then I enlarged 3 rows of the small holes, in the deepest section, out to 5/64. I am still concerned that the screen is acting as a shield and redirecting oil away from the drums.
Last edited by Scott C. on Sun May 03, 2020 10:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar

Richard G
Posts: 270
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 10:29 pm
First Name: Richard
Last Name: Grzegorowicz
Location: Hartland VT

Re: Transmission Oil Video

Post by Richard G » Sun May 03, 2020 10:04 pm

Scott, im to old to get under my dash, or i would see if there is a posability of some sort of deflecter that might catch oil tossed by the flywheel, perhaps under the screen, that would direct more oil at the bands, i woudn't think it would need to be very big,one, a slot that would run cross ways just over the bands with a bit of a dam to slow the flow somewhat, just thinkin,


Topic author
MadMax
Posts: 47
Joined: Tue Feb 19, 2019 3:59 pm
First Name: Max
Last Name: Lindsay
Location: Newport News, VA

Re: Transmission Oil Video

Post by MadMax » Sun May 03, 2020 11:31 pm

I’ll see about running with the screen in. Today was a cleaning day!
2DA64373-44D7-4E93-AB54-25ACAC5C30E3.jpeg
749EF8DA-3A68-4E70-84D9-986C57CC1659.jpeg
E6C71FB4-A418-4BC6-B26A-9DA844D7731F.jpeg
5BF5DE5F-48DE-41F5-A055-975128D436DF.jpeg
I never thought about the magnets for the magneto, but that rotation along with the oil slinging may limit the amount that can stick. I really couldn’t say.

I didn’t see the post about a magnet getting loose! Doesn’t sound like it ended well! Wiring it may be a good idea. I’m thinking I’ll drill those 4 holes out more in the top shelf since the screen is out. I’m half tempted to screw a flat piece of plexiglas closer to the top (forward) On the inside to try to get the oil to drop there which would make viewing better. But I also think that with the original design (no screen), a lot of oil got to the rear by running down the inside of the cover plate. Also not keen on having extra parts that can fall off and into the transmission.


Colin Mavins
Posts: 217
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 1:36 pm
First Name: Colin
Last Name: Mavins
Location: Winnipeg Canada
MTFCA Number: 1853

Re: Transmission Oil Video

Post by Colin Mavins » Sun May 03, 2020 11:46 pm

Just to stray a bit that is an interesting set up with the explosion whistles is this for a louder sound or do you get an offset or two tone explosion,just curious Cheers Colin


halftracknut
Posts: 81
Joined: Sun Jan 05, 2020 11:32 pm
First Name: randy
Last Name: lee

Re: Transmission Oil Video

Post by halftracknut » Mon May 04, 2020 4:14 pm

I am going to drill 2 more holes out to 3/8 and might decide to bring one even up to 1/2....and a note if you look close at the video you will see the screen area dumps into the rear of the transmission mostly on the clutch spring area and not on the bands that is why I did not enlarge any holes in the screen area and will keep it for a filter... The holes to enlarge are the ones in the front they drop oil on the bands...another note in the transmission book put out by the MTFC is a drawing of a screen with no holes up front but a rather wide slot.....rl
DSCN2642.JPG

User avatar

Richard G
Posts: 270
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 10:29 pm
First Name: Richard
Last Name: Grzegorowicz
Location: Hartland VT

Re: Transmission Oil Video

Post by Richard G » Mon May 04, 2020 8:43 pm

ITS REAL'Y GOING TO BE INTERESTING WHEN THIS IS ALL SAID AND DONE, ANY ONE EVER HAD A PROBLEM THEY KNOW OF BECAUSE OF THE FILTER STARVING THE BANDS OF OIL ? HOW LONG HAVE YOU HAD THE FILTER IN PLACE AND HAS IT DONE ITS JOB WITH NO PROBLEMS, OTHER THAN THE MAGNET BEING FLUSHED OFF, PERHAPS A LITTLE PIECE OF STEEL ATACHED TO THE CLEAR COVER ON THE RIGHT ANGLE AS TO DIRECT MORE OIL OVER THE BANDS ,JUST THINKIN. SEEMS I REMEMBER YEARS AGO PUTTING A BIG MAGNET ON THE SIDE OF THE OIL PAN,BEFORE FILTERS, WHY CANT ONE BE PUT ON THE OUT SIDE OF THE TRANS, COVER TO COLLECT THE TRASH, OR PERHAPS THE FLO OF OIL WOULD BE TO GREAT FOR IT TO COLLECT.


halftracknut
Posts: 81
Joined: Sun Jan 05, 2020 11:32 pm
First Name: randy
Last Name: lee

Re: Transmission Oil Video

Post by halftracknut » Mon May 04, 2020 9:16 pm

richard, all I can tell you is my rear brake drum was hot and I had brake fade....I drilled holes bigger and installed a magnet with a hole in it was able to get more oil to the rear drum and Now I have better brakes ( not as good as my F150 but better) rl


keen25
Posts: 81
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2019 5:14 pm
First Name: Eric
Last Name: Keenan
Location: Vineland, NJ

Re: Transmission Oil Video

Post by keen25 » Mon May 04, 2020 9:34 pm

I wonder what the effect of the flow when a magneto post oil line is used? Also can the magnet be attach to the underside of the trans inspection cover?

User avatar

Richard G
Posts: 270
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 10:29 pm
First Name: Richard
Last Name: Grzegorowicz
Location: Hartland VT

Re: Transmission Oil Video

Post by Richard G » Mon May 04, 2020 10:10 pm

RANDY, SOUND LIKE YOUR ON THE RIGHT TRACK, THIS IS WHAT'S SO GOOD AND INFORMATIVE WITH THIS FORUM, WHEN EVERY ONE PUTS THERE HEADS TOGETHER AND SOLVES PROBLEMS.


Colin Mavins
Posts: 217
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 1:36 pm
First Name: Colin
Last Name: Mavins
Location: Winnipeg Canada
MTFCA Number: 1853

Re: Transmission Oil Video

Post by Colin Mavins » Mon May 04, 2020 11:39 pm

My screen has the slot as in Randy "s picture


Scott C.
Posts: 497
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 11:44 am
First Name: Scott
Last Name: Clements
Location: Waynetown Indiana
MTFCA Number: 49592

Re: Transmission Oil Video

Post by Scott C. » Tue May 05, 2020 12:45 am

I installed the screens this winter when I rebuilt the rear axles. The roadster has not been driven very much. The coupe has seen some miles doing my "social distancing" videos. I need to pull the cover on it and adjust the brake band a little bit. When I had the cover off of the roadster, I contemplated putting the magnet on the bottom side of the cover. But, wondered if it would be very effective there?


halftracknut
Posts: 81
Joined: Sun Jan 05, 2020 11:32 pm
First Name: randy
Last Name: lee

Re: Transmission Oil Video

Post by halftracknut » Tue May 05, 2020 4:42 pm

I pulled my screen out and made final modifications drill out all holes to larger size and cleaned my hy-po magnet....
DSCN2646.JPG


Scott_Conger
Posts: 2806
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 11:18 am
First Name: Scott
Last Name: Conger
Location: Clark, WY
Board Member Since: 2005

Re: Transmission Oil Video

Post by Scott_Conger » Tue May 05, 2020 4:46 pm

Scott

I you'd lose surface area of the magnet. Make darn certain that it is located such that it is captured by the screen restriction and cannot in any way migrate into the engine. Myself, I'd leave it sitting on the mesh. You retain surface area and due to line contact to the curved surface, I think you lose very little filtering area.

Halftrack

I think that's a sensible mod.
Scott Conger

Full Flow Float Valves - deliver fuel like Henry intended!


halftracknut
Posts: 81
Joined: Sun Jan 05, 2020 11:32 pm
First Name: randy
Last Name: lee

Re: Transmission Oil Video

Post by halftracknut » Tue May 05, 2020 5:39 pm

The magnet is one of the super strong ones and is 3/8 thick so it can't get out of screen ... it is so strong I have to pry the top cover off...it may be too strong ...but did you notice I have it wired in place....If I decide I don't like the screen like this my next step is to cut a slot like the mtfc tranny book picture..

User avatar

Mark Gregush
Posts: 2967
Joined: Sat Jan 05, 2019 1:57 pm
First Name: Mark
Last Name: Gregush
Location: Portland Or
Board Member Since: 1999

Re: Transmission Oil Video

Post by Mark Gregush » Tue May 05, 2020 5:55 pm

Have any of you guys thought about the direction of flow when the oil leaves the hole? With all the rotation, turbulence and angles the oil might not be going where you think it is. Such as; the oil might not be flowing to the band under the hole above it. If you look at the one black Steve posted above, the holes are kinda funnel shaped maybe there was a reason for that. :twisted:
I know the voices aren't real but damn they have some good ideas! :shock:

1925 Cut down pickup
1920 Dodge touring
1948 Ford F2 pickup


Topic author
MadMax
Posts: 47
Joined: Tue Feb 19, 2019 3:59 pm
First Name: Max
Last Name: Lindsay
Location: Newport News, VA

Re: Transmission Oil Video

Post by MadMax » Mon May 11, 2020 9:21 am

Colin, when I got the car from my dad, it didn't have them on it. There was one in the box of stuff he gave me as well. I remember it being on and loved the thing (nothing better than being 12 and getting to pull the wire while the car was running!), but he removed it because he was worried it was killing power. I live in coastal Virginia, so i figured there was no need for power going up hills like there are in Pittsburgh. I bought the second one at a swap meet last year. Hey, if one explosion whistle is obnoxious, then two just makes it even better!!! They alternate, but I'd swear each individual was louder than the single one when it was on by itself (likely just hearing more often makes it sound like a higher volume?) Getting them both on and aligned is and was a pain! Pipe threads aren't cooperative and let you align (not just one but) two things to face in just the right direction... plus getting them in is a pain. It really has to be cylinders 2 and 3 due to firing order. Otherwise the car will chug really hard (tried it and it wasn't something I'd want). I have debated playing with them to get different tones/notes, but just haven't done it yet. You may inspire me to make that a change. I'd assume it is just a matter of removing mass from one of them. The two are tuned to about the same note/tone. We'll see!

I never thought about the oil just making it to the spring... Yeah, it seems that the drums would be more important. I think I mentioned in here somewhere that a guy in our local club was suggesting that its good to keep the 4th main oiled (he was the one that drilled the holes in his (shown in one of the videos). I'm going to post the last of the videos under a new thread. I would just add it here, but I'm guessing some folks who would be interested might not look because they figure the thread is wandering off into never never land.. we neeeeever do that here on the MTFCA forums??? :)

Many thanks for all of the dialog. It has given me a lot of reason to think about what to do. The Plexiglass cover is officially out until the next show. The screen is back in with two 1/4" holes all the way aft (I likely wouldn't have done that had I read the comments since last time I looked)... .AND the magnet is back in... wired so that there is no chance of it getting up into the transmission. Cheers to all and I hope you like the next video that shows the transmission with the car changing through gears!!!

Post Reply Previous topicNext topic