15 millionth radiator question.

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Brent Mize
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15 millionth radiator question.

Post by Brent Mize » Sun May 17, 2020 1:46 pm

The 15 millionth car on display at Greenfield Village has the extended fan hub as referenced in an article some to be ago in the magazines. I also had an up close look at the car with a representative from the museum a year ago. They don’t know anything much about the car, so I’m asking you.
My question is actually two questions.
1. Is that the original radiator? If so, why on such a late car did it have the late 26 experimental 3 row radiator and extended fan hub.
2. If it’s not the original (I doubt it has been replaced) what should be on it? I know they were using flat and round tube in 27 from what I’ve read. I know with all things in production there is never and exact date of a changeover.

My car (being Re-restored right now) is a late 27. It is 15,000,524, so it should be consistent with that car. Engine and chassis match. It had the longer fan hub when I got it but it had cooling problems so I put a new flat tube and short fan hub. But, if this was actually correct, was Ford using both types of radiators in 27? My car is a touring just like the 15 millionth. Perhaps one on lighter cars and a different one on heavier cars?
What should be on my car. I’m building this car to be correct and not to drive much. I just want it correct in all aspects as far as the way it was built.It’s just fun to make it correct. I have another T to drive. This one is my pet project.
Any help would be appreciated!
Thanks,Brent
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Dropacent
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Re: 15 millionth radiator question.

Post by Dropacent » Sun May 17, 2020 2:53 pm

I remember looking the car over very carefully many years ago when it was on display still. Probably 20-25 years ago now. My thoughts at the time was the car was really NOT one to refer to for correctness. Because of so long ago, I don’t think it’s worth trying to remember anything in particular. I had a very original late 27 roadster at the time.


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Re: 15 millionth radiator question.

Post by ModelTWoods » Sun May 17, 2020 3:25 pm

Brent, While I don't claim to be an expert; of the two 26 coupes, the two 26 fordor sedans, and the one 27 coupe that I have owned, all had round tube four or five row core radiators EXCEPT one 26 fordor. While I can't verify that all cars had the original radiator that they had installed from the factory, the one fordor sedan that had the experimental two row core radiator and extended fan hub, was the most original, unrestored car of the group. I theorize that Ford only installed this radiator and fan hub setup in cars assembled and intended to be sold in cooler climate areas of the U.S. It would have made no sense to put an experimental marginal cooling system in cars destined to be sold in areas where the summer temperatures average in the 90's and sometimes exceed 100. Registration material found in the 26 fordor sedan, indicated it was sold and stayed in the cool San Francisco, CA area until it was bought and moved to Texas.
Last edited by ModelTWoods on Mon May 18, 2020 11:59 am, edited 1 time in total.


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Re: 15 millionth radiator question.

Post by ModelT46 » Sun May 17, 2020 3:40 pm

This question raise other questions. Th 15,000,000 Model T touring on display may have had some changes. It has been repainted (as reports) and the top replaced (reports), but it is beleived the mechanics are as built in June, 1927. There has been a discussion of this in the past. It has been said often, that no Model T, completely original as built, is an example of what should be standard at that time and place. The 1909-10 model years seem to be correct, as listed on the build sheet, but each one often was different from the last one or the next one.


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Brent Mize
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Re: 15 millionth radiator question.

Post by Brent Mize » Sun May 17, 2020 5:11 pm

Thank you for your responses.
I do know the car was painted some time many years ago. I talked to the curator and that’s what he told me. But there were no records of the paint or color and why they changed the color of the car.
The car was originally gun metal blue, or grey. And it had a dark pinstripe.
I know the engine has had some work too since it was originally white or light grey since it was a landmark for Ford.
Since there’s no absolute, I’ll just be happy with what I have.
Thanks,
Brent
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Re: 15 millionth radiator question.

Post by John Codman » Sun May 17, 2020 5:41 pm

My '27, serial number 14,832,783 had a round-tube radiator. It now has a flat-tube radiator that actually cools it well. It is also nearly the twin of the 15,000,000th T.

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Re: 15 millionth radiator question.

Post by DanTreace » Sun May 17, 2020 6:24 pm

Brent

The close-ups of the 15th millionth show round tube radiator.

And this close-up of the 15th millionth chassis going down the line, clearly shows the longer fan hub, so that confirms the T got the thin radiator. Must have been ok to do, as that T did long distance from Dearborn to out west and back, visiting dealers and making crowds form, all paying their respects to the end of the T dynasty. :(



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Re: 15 millionth radiator question.

Post by Kerry » Sun May 17, 2020 6:42 pm

On the engine photo, what an I looking at ? what looks like a flat piece of steel running from the back of the fan hub bolt down to or behind the oil cap.

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Re: 15 millionth radiator question.

Post by KirkieP » Sun May 17, 2020 7:05 pm

The timer wiring
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Re: 15 millionth radiator question.

Post by Moxie26 » Sun May 17, 2020 7:14 pm

Brent; r26 runabout was built in October of 1926, and has a three-row radiator originally and has since been replaced by a five-row brass works radiator. Technically it should be registered as a 27 but I wasn't about to change the registration it already had.


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Re: 15 millionth radiator question.

Post by R.V.Anderson » Sun May 17, 2020 7:19 pm

Brent, is this really your 15 millionth radiator question? I must have missed your first 14,999,999 questions. Guess I had better pay more attention from now on.


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Re: 15 millionth radiator question.

Post by J1MGOLDEN » Sun May 17, 2020 9:14 pm

There is a note in one of the publications about Henry Ford having two radiator types available for the Model Ts.

One was for cold countries that needed les cooling.

The Flat tube and Round tube radiators made today are supposed to be exact copies, but one kind has 4 rows and the other type has 5 rows of cores.

Some after market radiators had only 2 rows and some had only 3 rows.

These notes are from Bruce McCalley's big black book.

1924-1926

Some flat tube radiators used during this period. Beginning in late 1925 an optional brass, nickel-plated, shell was offered. During 1926 three and four-row round tube radiators were used in addition to the standard five-row. The bottom skirt was secured to the engine mount/spring clip with a screw. Skirts used with the nickel shell had a nickel trim strip.

1927

Four and five-row, round-tube, radiators used. Nickel-plated-shell now standard.
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Re: 15 millionth radiator question.

Post by Original Smith » Mon May 18, 2020 10:48 am

One thing for sure Brent, the 15,000,000th car didn't have step plates!


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Re: 15 millionth radiator question.

Post by John Codman » Mon May 18, 2020 11:26 am

I don't believe that the Nickle-plated radiator shell was standard in 1927. My March-built '27 has a steel, painted shell and I have no reason to believe that it isn't original.

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Re: 15 millionth radiator question.

Post by FundyTides » Mon May 18, 2020 2:07 pm

Our 27 Canadian Touring had the 3 row "cold climate" radiator with the long fan hub. When I replaced the rad a few years ago with a brassworks 4 row, I had to install the shorter hub as well. When we bought the car 60 years ago, it had an original nickel plated rad shell. Don't know if this was standard or extra-cost option. Probably standard as the car also had wooden wheels as most Canadian built cars did. I could have asked the original owner when we bought the car but I didn't know enough about T's then and he is long gone now.


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Re: 15 millionth radiator question.

Post by ModelTWoods » Mon May 18, 2020 2:41 pm

John Codman wrote:
Mon May 18, 2020 11:26 am
I don't believe that the Nickle-plated radiator shell was standard in 1927. My March-built '27 has a steel, painted shell and I have no reason to believe that it isn't original.
Even though, I seem to remember that the Encyclopedia says nickle shells were standard in 1927 (not differentiating between body style), it sticks in my mind that I read somewhere (I think in Bruce McCalley and Ray Miller's first book) that only 27 closed cars got them as standard and they were optional at extra cost on open cars. It referred to the roadster and touring with nickle shells as the 'sport roadster' and the 'sport touring'. Option was also supposed to include gypsy curtains.


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Re: 15 millionth radiator question.

Post by Brent Mize » Mon May 18, 2020 4:05 pm

Larry,
That’s the car as I got it BEFORE being re-restored. They are history.
It’s totally apart. I know that those aren’t correct. Duh!
Thanks for your snarky comment! That wasn’t necessary, but expected!


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Re: 15 millionth radiator question.

Post by ericmac » Mon May 18, 2020 8:46 pm

Brent,

I wish I could give you more insight on this question. As you know, my car is a very early (October '25) '26, 12699205 thus at the polar opposite of production run compared to your car, so not much help in terms of a reference point. That being said, I have a round tube 5 row rad.

I for one, greatly admire your commitment to authenticity. If you elect to do anything controversial expect to get your chops busted. That happened with my car over a few items. So long as you can make a solid documented case for your choices you should be in good shape.

Let me know if there is anything I can do to help.

Eric
1913 Touring
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1937 Cadillac Series 75 Fleetwood Conv. Sedan
1927 Touring
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Re: 15 millionth radiator question.

Post by John kuehn » Mon May 18, 2020 9:42 pm

If I was wanting to build a correct Model T I would have to find one that had come off the assembly line during the middle of the production year. The reason why that was that was the time earlier or later production parts probably weren’t used. It would be probably a ‘pure’ production year car. MAYBE! Cross over use of parts drives the purists wild.
Unfortunately the reason more than a few Model T folks don’t go to a high class car show where a car is judged for ‘authenticity’ is there are always self appointed experts looking at a car and pointing out their supposed discrepancies.
It sure takes the fun out of it. Going on a drive or tour with folks that just go for the fun of it is a much better experience. But that’s just my opinion.


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Re: 15 millionth radiator question.

Post by Brent Mize » Tue May 19, 2020 1:35 pm

For me it’s just about trying to get it right. Unless an individual was on the line at the time a car was built it’s virtually impossible to say absolute about anything. Since there are no records left for the late cars, who knows how it left Highland or of the regional assembly plants.

There are those that think they know and tend to point out discrepancies. Again, they were NOT there when the car was built! And it’s just plain rude to comment on another’s car unless asked. A couple in particular think they know it all.
Whether I show it or not remains to be seen. But, it’s been finding parts that are hard to find that’s been fun. Some of the late stuff is hard to find just like some of the earlier stuff.

Regarding the question that started this thread, I just ordered the radiator that’s close to what’s on the 15,000,000 from Brassworks. I have the correct fan hub. At least this part of my car will be consistent with that car. It’s a three row. If I decide to drive the car much, I have another new radiator in the box that will fit that need. But, the 15000000th car had this type of radiator. I believe it was driven quite a bit without problems before being displayed at the Henry Ford Museum, or Edison Institue as it was know before Henry’s death in 1947.
Thanks for all you help,
Brent

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