Front spring perches

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rgsteve
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Front spring perches

Post by rgsteve » Sun Apr 12, 2020 2:27 pm

I inherited my Dad's 1924 Touring that he put together from old parts in the 1970s. From what I have read on this forum I have noticed that some things are not quite right. After reading about front spring perches I checked those on this car. To my surprise I discovered the the front axle has two left perches. The axle does have a proper tilt toward the rear at the top and it has always driven well. Should I be worried?


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Re: Front spring perches

Post by HPetrino » Sun Apr 12, 2020 2:38 pm

What makes you think both are left perches since the axle is properly tilted? I would think that two left perches would result in the left side being properly tilted and the right side being tilted forward.

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Re: Front spring perches

Post by Steve Jelf » Sun Apr 12, 2020 3:13 pm

What Henry said. I would think that with two of the same perch something would have to bend.How about some pictures?
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Re: Front spring perches

Post by rgsteve » Sun Apr 12, 2020 3:31 pm

I think that they are both for the left side because the boss is on the back side of the perch on the left side of the car and the boss is on the front side of the perch on the right side.

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Steve Jelf
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Re: Front spring perches

Post by Steve Jelf » Sun Apr 12, 2020 3:36 pm

It sure sounds like one is backwards. Is something bent to make it fit?
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Re: Front spring perches

Post by HPetrino » Sun Apr 12, 2020 3:37 pm

Eyeball the axle. does it look corkscrewed? Something must be askew for this situation to exist.


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Re: Front spring perches

Post by rgsteve » Sun Apr 12, 2020 3:49 pm

The axle looks fine, the spindle bolts appear to be at the same angle. I am thinking that the spring may have a twist to it. It has me worried.
Right hand view.jpg


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Re: Front spring perches

Post by Dallas Landers » Sun Apr 12, 2020 3:51 pm

It would be very difficult to get the shackles installed if they were the same perch.


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Re: Front spring perches

Post by rgsteve » Sun Apr 12, 2020 4:28 pm

I have not tried to remove the shackles and I wasn't there when they were installed. I can imagine that they might be a real bear to install.


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Re: Front spring perches

Post by Wayne Sheldon » Sun Apr 12, 2020 4:44 pm

Well, I have seen an axle or two, in other people's cars, with both perches being for one side. So I know it can be done. The spring is the weakest flex point in the assembly so would be twisted to accommodate the perch which would be held crooked (being angled wrong) by the axle and aided by the wishbone that is supposed to help set and hold the caster angle.
And that is what it looks like you have in the photo.
Yes, you should get that perch replaced if you can. Hopefully, if he put the perch in himself, it may be loose enough to come out easily. If the perch was a tight fit, and been in there long enough, they can be so stuck that it takes a good press and a big torch to get them out. If that is the case? You would be better off to get another good axle with two proper perches in it. They still aren't too difficult to find. You maybe should also replace at least the main leaf in the spring.
Even though it may drive and handle okay that way? It is putting a lot of pressure twisting the spring that way. It could cause the spring 's main leaf to crack and/or break without much warning. That could result in a sudden loss of control that if it happened at the wrong time could have very bad results.
Be aware, that model T steering geometry is simple, and usually adjusts and handles well as long as everything is in good condition and properly adjusted. You should check and double check all pieces and adjustments after you replace the perch or the entire axle. Make sure all bushings are good, and no excessive (even minor) play in any joints. However, occasionally, a mis-mix of parts can result in a front end that measures fine, but works lousy. It doesn't happen often, but can. And usually shows up after changing a bunch of stuff. (Often, it is caused by a slightly different camber forged into the spindles.) Not common, just be aware and watch for it after making changes to fix the perch.

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Re: Front spring perches

Post by Steve Jelf » Sun Apr 12, 2020 4:50 pm

It sure looks backwards. See figure 119 on Page 45 and check your pitch on both sides. If that checks out OK, I'd guess at least one bent perch, a bent spring, or maybe both.
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Re: Front spring perches

Post by HPetrino » Sun Apr 12, 2020 4:57 pm

I agree with what Wayne said. If it were mine, I'd rebuild the whole front axle, steering, etc. There's no telling what else you might find that needs fixing. Whoever put that assembly together had to work pretty hard at it, whether it was in ignorance or he considered getting the right parts too much trouble. While you're at it I suggest you disassemble the spring and examine it (primarily the main leaf) carefully for the beginning of a crack.

I don't know what state of disassembly it was in when your dad got it. He may have never noticed this problem. particularly if he acquired the chassis and axles as an assembly.


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Re: Front spring perches

Post by rgsteve » Sun Apr 12, 2020 5:19 pm

Thanks for the advice, I was afraid of this when I learned of right and left perches. I just finished having the spindles re-bushed and fitted to the axle.


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Re: Front spring perches

Post by Scott_Conger » Sun Apr 12, 2020 6:14 pm

Yowzer!

I am guessing that a smooth-faced pipe wrench on the spring and some unkind words will be necessary to liberate that shackle. Best that you found it now.

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Re: Front spring perches

Post by rgsteve » Wed Apr 15, 2020 10:09 pm

spring shackles.jpg
This is what my spring shackles look like. The unusual wear was probably caused by having the wrong perch on one side. I snapped off the offending perch trying to get the nut off.


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Re: Front spring perches

Post by Altair » Wed Apr 15, 2020 10:43 pm

The perches have part numbers on them. The odd numbered perch is left. 3818 right and 3819 is left.

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Re: Front spring perches

Post by John E. Guitar » Wed Apr 15, 2020 11:06 pm

My 24 Tudor had two left perches on it when I got it. I drove it for a year or two before someone noticed the problem and pointed it out to me.

With the two left perches it had a noticable shimmy after going over speed humps.

If you get a new perch it is a good idea to check it as some of the new ones are not machined very well.

Spring perches.jpg
0F4A9801.JPG


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Re: Front spring perches

Post by Altair » Thu Apr 16, 2020 10:58 am

I think the duplicating manufacturers found a warn perch and then made them that way.


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Re: Front spring perches

Post by rgsteve » Sun May 17, 2020 7:56 pm

I finally got the new correct front spring perch installed along with new shackles and bushings in the spring and perches. I also replaced the king pins and bushings, spindle arm bushings and bolts, and the ball for the tie rod yoke. I took it out for the first drive yesterday. It drives nice with less slop in the steering wheel, and feels much more solid. Thanks for the advice.

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