1909 firewall drawing

Discuss all things Model T related.
Forum rules
If you need help logging in, or have question about how something works, use the Support forum located here Support Forum
Complete set of Forum Rules Forum Rules

Topic author
Michael Paul
Posts: 258
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 11:32 am
First Name: Michael
Last Name: Paul
Location: Smartsville, California 95977
MTFCA Number: 31791

1909 firewall drawing

Post by Michael Paul » Tue May 19, 2020 9:50 am

Good morning, is there a drawing of the 09/ 10 firewall with bolt holes and steering wheel location out there?
Any help appreciated.
Thanks Michael Paul


Jerry VanOoteghem
Posts: 672
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 4:06 pm
First Name: Jerry
Last Name: VanOoteghem
Location: S.E. Michigan

Re: 1909 firewall drawing

Post by Jerry VanOoteghem » Tue May 19, 2020 10:37 am

Contact John Regan, he has given the topic more thought, attention and research than any sane man should :D I believe he's on the forum as "Piewagon". R.V. Anderson would also be an excellent source of information!


Topic author
Michael Paul
Posts: 258
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 11:32 am
First Name: Michael
Last Name: Paul
Location: Smartsville, California 95977
MTFCA Number: 31791

Re: 1909 firewall drawing

Post by Michael Paul » Tue May 19, 2020 10:44 am

Thank you,. I'll try and connect with them.
Michael Paul

User avatar

TRDxB2
Posts: 1593
Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2019 4:56 pm
First Name: Frank
Last Name: Brandi
Location: Moline IL
Board Member Since: 2018

Re: 1909 firewall drawing

Post by TRDxB2 » Tue May 19, 2020 12:11 pm

Here is some information I found. Someone can weigh in on the diagram for the 1913 differences compared to a 1909-10 relative to the steering column holes
Early Firewall Differences.jpg
Attachments
1913 firewall.jpg
1913 firewall.jpg (68.44 KiB) Viewed 1242 times


Scott Rosenthal
Posts: 168
Joined: Sun Jan 13, 2019 11:29 am
First Name: Scott
Last Name: Rosenthal
Location: Cincinnati OH

Re: 1909 firewall drawing

Post by Scott Rosenthal » Tue May 19, 2020 4:56 pm

Very little related to this 1913 dash drawing is accurate for 1909. Most notable discrepancies are the steering hole location, steering mounting holes, and body to frame brackets.
Regards,
Scott


Topic author
Michael Paul
Posts: 258
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 11:32 am
First Name: Michael
Last Name: Paul
Location: Smartsville, California 95977
MTFCA Number: 31791

Re: 1909 firewall drawing

Post by Michael Paul » Wed May 20, 2020 12:07 am

Thank you for the great drawing. All I need is the measurements from the top of the firewall to the center of the steering column hole similar to the way it's shown on the 1913 drawing. If someone with an original 09 firewall could give me that, I will be good to go. What I have as a pattern seems to be a repo and the steering column location doesn't seem correct. I just wanted to double check before I started cutting the mahogany plywood. That stuff is expensive!
Thanks Mike


Piewagon
Posts: 93
Joined: Thu Jan 10, 2019 8:38 pm
First Name: John
Last Name: Regan
Location: St. Charles, IL
MTFCA Number: 14725
MTFCI Number: 77
Board Member Since: 1999

Re: 1909 firewall drawing

Post by Piewagon » Wed May 20, 2020 12:24 am

I think the 1913 Dash will confuse you more than help you. It is not a copy of the Ford archive drawing for 1913 either. I have all the info that the archives has with regard to wood dashes. Unfortunately the earliest T's are the least well documented at the archives but with some effort you can usually figure out what a 1909 or a 1910 dash should look like for a given car if you have the car motor number and thus the approximate date of the car.

With regard to the steering column location it was dimensioned from the bottom most edge of the dash itself. The earliest dash had 2 circles that were concentric. One was the bolt circle for the 4 bolts that held the column to the dash and the other circle was the large OD cutout circle inside the other 4 bolts. The column, timing rod, and throttle rod passed through this larger circle. On the earliest 1909 dashes both of those circles had the same center and thus the 4 outer bolt holes and 2-3/4" diameter center hole in the wood dash were concentric. The bolt circle diameter was 4-3/8" and the center of the concentric hole was 13" up from the bottom edge of the dash and 8-1/8" to the left of the dash vertical centerline. Left and Right of the dash is as viewed by the driver. One thing I should mention is that if you do use these dimensions to put a hole in your dash you will then realize that you have to file it a bit since the bolt circle and the column center hole need to NOT be concentric in the vertical locations. An authentic trophy winning 1909 will show that file and wood rasp work has been done to make the rods and column to clear the dash and not rub on the edge of the hole.

Now the next thing that they did was to move the column down a bit and also the bolt circle and large cutout circle will be moved apart by 1/4" The bolt circle will also increase in diameter a wee bit. The new bolt circle is enlarged from 4-3/8" to 4-1/2". The cutout hole remains as 2-3/4" Diameter but is lowered by 15/16" to a new height of 12-1/16" up from the bottom edge of the dash. The steering column bolt circle is moved to a new height that is 12-5/16" up from the bottom edge of the dash. It remains at 8-1/8" to the left of center of the dash.

The next change to the steering column location was on 7/20/11 but that change was reversed on 8/4/11.

Then on 9/26/11 the "1912" one piece dash shows up as does a master vibrator and some other toys and boy it gets confusing for a while in that era since different cars used different dashes. Basically Ford was ready at this time to switch over to the new one piece dash but he forgot that he couldn't do that for bodies that could not change to a lower location at the top of the windshield so Delivery Cars and other body styles that had a fixed height behind the windshield had to stick with the 2 piece dash while other cars could simply lower the front bow location and use the one piece dash. So some things went away and then came back and the record of changes is a maze as to how/when/why things needed to change and change back.


Topic author
Michael Paul
Posts: 258
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 11:32 am
First Name: Michael
Last Name: Paul
Location: Smartsville, California 95977
MTFCA Number: 31791

Re: 1909 firewall drawing

Post by Michael Paul » Wed May 20, 2020 10:00 am

Thank you so much for the information John,
that's just what I needed. My pattern has the cutout hole for the column at 11 1/2" from the bottom so it is 9/16" to low. Now I can proceed with the project. And thank you for the file to fit info, I was planning on drilling it on my Bridgeport with an angled setup.. I only wish now I could find mahogany plywood with a thicker veneer!
Have a great day! Mike


Original Smith
Posts: 1861
Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2019 10:43 am
First Name: Larry
Last Name: Smith
Location: Lomita, California
MTFCA Number: 121
MTFCA Life Member: YES
MTFCI Number: 16310

Re: 1909 firewall drawing

Post by Original Smith » Wed May 20, 2020 10:02 am

That drawing above is not accurate at all for a 1913. Pay no attention to it!


Jerry VanOoteghem
Posts: 672
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 4:06 pm
First Name: Jerry
Last Name: VanOoteghem
Location: S.E. Michigan

Re: 1909 firewall drawing

Post by Jerry VanOoteghem » Wed May 20, 2020 6:50 pm

Told ya' John would know! :)


Topic author
Michael Paul
Posts: 258
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 11:32 am
First Name: Michael
Last Name: Paul
Location: Smartsville, California 95977
MTFCA Number: 31791

Re: 1909 firewall drawing

Post by Michael Paul » Wed May 20, 2020 10:11 pm

Yes, thank you Jerry.

Post Reply Previous topicNext topic