2d Gear Difficulty

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Tom Quigley
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2d Gear Difficulty

Post by Tom Quigley » Mon Feb 11, 2019 12:29 pm

The engine is new, transmission rebuilt with watts clutch, rebuilt rear end, engine idles well on battery or magneto. First gear and reverse seem to work normally.

Going from low to 2d gear the entire engine shudders and refuses to smooth out in spite of feathering the clutch. Clutch fingers are adjusted correctly.

The shuddering and labored transition to high gear seems to be the problem. My analysis is that the clutch pack seems not to be correct and it is resisting for some reason. Any ideas out there that might help?

In NVA.

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Henry K. Lee
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Re: 2d Gear Difficulty

Post by Henry K. Lee » Mon Feb 11, 2019 12:36 pm

Tom,

Somethings to consider, clutch discs warped or cracked. Outside clutch disc drum supports worn and grooved will cause these issues too.

Hope you get her going!

All the Best,

Hank in Tin-A-See

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Re: 2d Gear Difficulty

Post by Ruxstel24 » Mon Feb 11, 2019 12:43 pm

Tom, could the engine be missfiring ?
Under a heavier load in high, possibly fuel mixture off, ignition troubles...

Good luck :)

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Re: 2d Gear Difficulty

Post by RajoRacer » Mon Feb 11, 2019 12:48 pm

Have you verified the correct adjustment of the 3 clutch adjustments ? Spring height set at 2" which should set the clutch throw-out collar to driven plate at 13/16", next adjust the "free-play" in the low pedal clevis to have 1/8" then lastly, pulling the low pedal off the floor, measure the distance to a common spot on the steering column mount then pull the h.b. lever to the vertical position - the clutch throw-out bolt needs to be adjusted in or out so the low pedal moves towards the floor 1 & 3/4".


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Re: 2d Gear Difficulty

Post by Kerry » Mon Feb 11, 2019 4:33 pm

2 things to consider, the way you drive? back the thottle off completely on low high change and the clutch spring, modern clutch packs require a new spring of 110 pounds, the originals are too weak and you end up with a shuttering gear change.

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Re: 2d Gear Difficulty

Post by pdgriesse » Mon Feb 11, 2019 4:45 pm

I had a similar problem----found the ebrake rods were not allowing the brake lever to go FULL FORWARD to permit the clutch to fully engage in high gear. I suggest you check this out! good luck---paul

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Re: 2d Gear Difficulty

Post by walber » Mon Feb 11, 2019 5:09 pm

Consider retarding the spark a bit as well as backing off the throttle some when shifting and then ease back into the throttle and timing.


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Re: 2d Gear Difficulty

Post by HaroldRJr » Mon Feb 11, 2019 7:11 pm

Tom - Strictly personal opinion on my part here, but I am of the opinion that even during a normal, proper transition from low pedal to high, the engine will always tend to "lug" just a bit until the car speed (mph) and engine speed (rpm) increase a bit. This is because there is such an extreme difference in low and high gear ratios. Think of it as driving a modern 3-speed standard shift automobile, starting out from a normal stop, say at a stop sign for instance, and starting out from the stop sign normally in low gear, and skipping 2nd gear and shifting directly from low directly to high (or 3rd) gear. That's basically how you start out with a Model T, and it's one of several reasons why Henry Ford actually approved of the addition of the accessory Ruckstell 2-speed rear end. Even Henry agreed that a gear between low & high would be very beneficial. Again,...my "opinion",....for what it's worth,....harold

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Re: 2d Gear Difficulty

Post by Kaiser » Wed Feb 13, 2019 5:18 pm

What Walt said, easiest to try, when shifting back off throttle and retard spark some, might fix it, if it doesn't its time to pull the floorboards and check adjustment of lever and pedal, if that doesn't fix it pull the cover and dig in !
When in trouble, do not fear, blame the second engineer ! 8-)
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Re: 2d Gear Difficulty

Post by Altair » Thu Feb 14, 2019 1:24 pm

I don't think it is necessary to adjust the throttle or the spark, the transition from low to direct drive should be done quickly ie dump the clutch, don't ride it, and it will pull away with no issues. This requires sufficient RPMs, if too slow some bucking may occur, I don't baby mine I give a good shot, dump the clutch and I am off.


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Re: 2d Gear Difficulty

Post by Scott_Conger » Thu Feb 14, 2019 2:04 pm

I don't think it is necessary to adjust the throttle or the spark, the transition from low to direct drive should be done quickly ie dump the clutch...
You are right, it isn't necessary, but it is a whole lot easier on the driveline, from the crank, to the clutch, to the ring/pinion to do what others are suggesting regarding dropping and matching engine speed to wheel speed.
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Re: 2d Gear Difficulty

Post by Adam » Thu Feb 14, 2019 2:08 pm

I think what you are experiencing is a “poor shift”. The modern clutch discs do amplify this issue. While you might not have noticed it with the original discs, It may be far more pronounced with modern discs.

Accelerate in low gear.

Close up the throttle all the way at the same time you are shifting from low to high.

Wait maybe 1 second.

Slowly open the throttle, allowing the engine to evenly pick up the load.

Then accelerate.

DO NOT leave the throttle open when shifting from low to high if you have modern discs. You will eventually damage your transmission / driveline / crankshaft. There were better clutches available back in the day. Ford used their stock disc setup to promote smooth shifting AND protect the engine, trans, and driveline from shock loads.


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Re: 2d Gear Difficulty

Post by Hal » Fri Feb 15, 2019 7:47 am

It amazes me the differences in driving techniques. And of course everyone thinks theirs is the right one. I am firmly in the camp of closing the throttle, retarding the spark and engaging high smoothly with the engine speed matched to the drive train speed. I cannot see how anyone could not agree that this technique is easier on the drive train. No shock loads. I have to wonder if those that promote dumping the clutch would just force a Model A transmission to grind it's way into gear or do they double clutch and allow the engine speed to match the transmission speed and smoothly, quietly, effortlessly, slip it into the next gear? Matching engine speed to drivetrain speed is a technique that must be learned. I suspect some just haven't.

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Re: 2d Gear Difficulty

Post by aDave » Fri Feb 15, 2019 9:27 am

....."and refuses to smooth out in spite of feathering the clutch....."

Unless you like to change bands, that is a VERY BAD practice.

What Hal (and others has stated: ".... Matching engine speed to drivetrain speed is a technique that must be learned." is MOST important


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Re: 2d Gear Difficulty

Post by Altair » Fri Feb 15, 2019 2:17 pm

A T transmission is the basis of an automatic, automatics today shift in the wink of an eye using oil pressure whereas the T shifts as quickly as you can lift your foot off the pedal. Feathering the clutch between low and direct drive will introduce unnecessary wear on the clutch parts. The shift should be made quickly (like an automatic) then immediately there after the throttle can be managed to suite the speed. You may want to loaf along or take it all the way up to top speed. I don't feel the spark should be adjusted at this time, however when negotiating a grade, at ones discretion, the spark may be adjusted slightly to match the road speed to a point where a lower gear is required then the spark should be re-advanced fully again.


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Re: 2d Gear Difficulty

Post by Hal » Fri Feb 15, 2019 3:33 pm

Like I said, everyone believes theirs is right.


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Re: 2d Gear Difficulty

Post by Kerry » Fri Feb 15, 2019 5:00 pm

Yep! and when all else fails, "read the instructions" :D


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Re: 2d Gear Difficulty

Post by Scott_Conger » Fri Feb 15, 2019 5:13 pm

Race the engine and slip the bands to start off, run wide open in low and "pop" the clutch without closing the throttle to go into high (or as an alternative, let the high clutch spin while slowly letting the pedal out), and last but not least, use the reverse pedal on long downhill runs. Your local mechanic needs the work.

That's a jo, ah say, that's a joke, son... :lol:
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Re: 2d Gear Difficulty

Post by Adam » Fri Feb 15, 2019 6:08 pm

From the 1924 FORD Manual:
47DC7D61-1735-41E3-B163-FE64A14368E7.jpeg


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Re: 2d Gear Difficulty

Post by Scott_Conger » Fri Feb 15, 2019 6:54 pm

Well, now Adam, that's just unreasonable, citing the factory liturature and all.
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Re: 2d Gear Difficulty

Post by JP_noonan » Fri Feb 15, 2019 10:11 pm

As others here have correctly opined, shifting technique makes a huge difference in the way your T will adjust to high gear. When i first started driving i made the mistake of shifting into high at too low a speed and my T made it known to me it didn't like it one bit. After some trial and error, i found the perfect RPM/MPH that works best for my T, and eliminated about 90% of the shudder i was encountering. That being said, maybe Tom can shed some more light on his problem as i don't quite understand if this was his first drive after a compete rebuild, and if the shuddering continued well after the shift and didn't smooth out at all, which in my opinion would probably be a mechanical problem. Get back to us Tom, lots of great minds here to help you out.
Experience is a wonderful thing. It enables you to recognize a mistake when you make it again.

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Re: 2d Gear Difficulty

Post by Jugster » Sat Feb 16, 2019 1:17 am

I've driven a number of Model T Fords and the thing they all have in common is that unfortunate orchestration which takes place right after up-shifting. They all do that, though some individuals are worse than others. The problem is that the car really needs an intermediate gear between low and high. That would solve the problem.

Now, you can play with the spark setting and do all the other recommended things, but these cars are all eccentric individuals and what works on this one may not work on that one. What it amounts to is you have to live with your car and over a period of time, get to know her foibles and how to deal with them. With mine (for instance), I bring the throttle to idle while lifting my left foot to the neutral position, wait a beat or two for the RPM's to drop and then feather in high gear. It took a couple of years for me to polish the knack. When I drove someone else's Flivver, the technique it required was a whole lot less critical.

Like I said, they're all individuals, but they all do share that unfortunate, low-frequency shudder that takes place right after the up-shift.


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Re: 2d Gear Difficulty

Post by Adam » Sat Feb 16, 2019 11:42 am

I do have to say, that a “low frequency shudder right after up-shift” Is the result of driving technique OR a mechanical issue. This is actual experience having probably driven 75 or so different Model T’s, working on T’s more or less on a full time basis for the last 15 years, building complete engine and transmission assemblies, having installed maybe 20 engines and had the opportunity to drive them and break them in. I’ve given a lot of driving lessons. My top of the line build is a completely balanced and blueprinted engine and transmission assembly that includes scat crankshaft, starter, generator, carburetor, coils, manifolds, timer, installation, break in drive, and driving instruction. Other than the scat crank, aluminum pistons, stainless valves, and hard seats, the assemblies are bone-stock, but all very carefully and precisely re-machined, aligned, and assembled. About two miles North of me I have a nice loop of barely-traveled rural township roads. One trip around the loop is 5 miles. Before a client takes their car home with them, we drive up to the loop and they drive as many times as they wish around the loop. I have always urged them to drive as many times around as they like, until they are absolutely comfortable with driving the car. There are 4 stop signs (one at the bottom of a hill and one at the top). There are some 20 mph s-curves. There are several hills, one of which would require a down-shift if not started at proper speed. There is an empty parking lot to stop, turn off, restart, and reverse. The reason I ramble on about this is because nearly every person I’ve had driving this road course will produce the “engine shudder” when shifting from low to high. With proper training, showing them how a couple times, and talking them thru it, they usually can shift without the “shudder” by their third or fourth time around the circuit. I’ve even had comments from fairly experienced T drivers and “second generation” T owners that they “didn’t know it wasn’t supposed to do that”. I really prefer to provide the taining in conjunction with my product because I really do believe that how well you operate your engine has a direct bearing on it’s longevity.

With all that said, I also believe that it IS NOT possible to provide good instructions on the fine points of Model T operation in any video or writing. It has to be done in person. The number one issue is that a lot of the “skill” depends on sound, feel, and forward motion, all of which are poorly rendered if you aren’t actually there...

Now, here is the main “trick” in eliminating a “shift shudder”! There are bound to be a few times now-and-then when you shift and it Does Not Shudder... Pay close attention to how you shifted and how it was different than “your usual shift”. If you can’t reproduce the shift, then go back to the same place and try it again. Keep working on it and practicing until you get good at smooth, shudder-less shifts every time.

If you heartily disagree with me, then okay. But if you are someone who sees this and modifies your driving habits, your Model T just became more enjoyable!


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Re: 2d Gear Difficulty

Post by Scott_Conger » Sat Feb 16, 2019 5:37 pm

Adam

that was very well put and I couldn't agree more
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Re: 2d Gear Difficulty

Post by Tom Quigley » Wed Mar 13, 2019 10:22 am

Thank you all for your informed commentary. I will test all of these matters in a week or so. This hobby is just too much fun to become frustrated by a set back or two. Thanks much! TQ


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Re: 2d Gear Difficulty

Post by Norman Kling » Wed Mar 13, 2019 11:51 am

I believe Adam has the best advice and the Ford literature to back him.
Several other things to consider:
The gear ratio of the rear axle. If the ring and pinion have been changed to a higher gear ratio, you will have faster top speed with less engine speed. However, you will need to rev up more in low before you shift into high and might not be able to use high at all on a slight incline. The higher ratio should only be used if you have auxiliary transmission such as Ruckstell or Warford, lower low gear or intermediate ratio.

I would suggest that you rev the engine faster in low before you shift to high and then push the throttle up as you pass through neutral into high. When your clutch is all the way out in high, advance the gas. This method will give you the least clutch slippage when shifting. It is important not to "pop" the clutch but also not to feather the clutch. Just raise the pedal slowly, but be sure wait until it is all the way out before you give it more gas. The idea is to get the engine moving at the same speed while in neutral as it will be moving when in high gear. The opposite applies to down shifting. when you down shift, leave the throttle down so the engine will speed up as you pass through neutral.

The third thing which could cause a problem is if the brake rods are adjusted too long, it will pull back on the lever when you go into neutral and will not allow the clutch to engage completely. Take out the clevis pins and with the brake lever all the way forward, adjust so the pins can be installed without moving the brake lever.

If all the above are done correctly and it still shudders have problems elsewhere either in the clutch adjustment or the engine is misfiring.
Norm


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Re: 2d Gear Difficulty

Post by rgould1910 » Wed Mar 13, 2019 1:12 pm

I struggled for years with the same problem, I rebuilt the transmission at least once, changed the clutch and tried a number of things thinking the problem was with the transmission clutch assembly. Turns out my crankshaft was 22 grams out of balance. I had statically balanced only the flywheel and rods. Once I it had the crank spin balanced, shifting smoothed out fine.


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Re: 2d Gear Difficulty

Post by Original Smith » Wed Mar 13, 2019 6:43 pm

The only way I can figure to get a second gear in a T, is to install a Ruckstell!

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Re: 2d Gear Difficulty

Post by Duey_C » Thu Mar 14, 2019 11:52 pm

Good advice already Tom. I'll dare add this.
I caught hell from a fella when I talked about 1st and 2nd GEAR on a T unit power plant. :)
I can have the same issue with a wore out T here IF I'm slow on the pedal. I make the shift quick with the turbo 400 discs in there.
Or I have the a case of the shudders bad. On this one, the driveline is junk. How's that drive shaft and rear end on yours?
The newer style clutches might be brutal on shifting. The originals are way smoother.
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Re: 2d Gear Difficulty

Post by d stroud » Fri Mar 15, 2019 3:44 am

I've always been under the impression that second gear was the one after first gear. Dave
1925 mostly original coupe.

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Re: 2d Gear Difficulty

Post by Duey_C » Fri Mar 15, 2019 10:29 pm

Hehehe! You're right Dave but 1st gear is LOW! :)
Then there's high... ummm, ...gear? No. Cuz the gears all revolve together right and nothing is moving in the gear train?....
:lol:
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Re: 2d Gear Difficulty

Post by MichaelPawelek » Fri Mar 15, 2019 10:55 pm

Remember that you are moving a lot of weight for 21 or so horse power......

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Re: 2d Gear Difficulty

Post by Ruxstel24 » Fri Mar 15, 2019 11:04 pm

d stroud wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 3:44 am
I've always been under the impression that second gear was the one after first gear. Dave
Duey_C wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 10:29 pm
Hehehe! You're right Dave but 1st gear is LOW! :)
Then there's high... ummm, ...gear? No. Cuz the gears all revolve together right and nothing is moving in the gear train?....
:lol:
If you're gonna be all technical and $h1t...
It's low speed and high speed :P

I like to call high direct, that's what it is. :)


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Re: 2d Gear Difficulty

Post by Dallas Landers » Sat Mar 16, 2019 3:37 am

Mine is a two speed. Slow and slower!


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Re: 2d Gear Difficulty

Post by MichaelPawelek » Sat Mar 16, 2019 7:45 am

Real men don’t need no stinking middle gear!

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Re: 2d Gear Difficulty

Post by Ruxstel24 » Sat Mar 16, 2019 11:04 am

Dallas Landers wrote:
Sat Mar 16, 2019 3:37 am
Mine is a two speed. Slow and slower!
I thought I was the only one looking at the forum at 3am... :lol:


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Re: 2d Gear Difficulty

Post by Dallas Landers » Sat Mar 16, 2019 11:42 am

No Dave, I was up but not by choice. I was sitting in the big red truck again. Thought I would surf the forum while working on this.
20190316_005114.jpg

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Re: 2d Gear Difficulty

Post by Ruxstel24 » Sat Mar 16, 2019 11:54 am

I kinda figured Dallas.
Don't look like much left of that one !
I imagine the big red truck is a "multi speed" :lol:

Myself, it's been a long week of back pain.
And working any darn how. :(
I have to break the habit of getting up at 3-4am
to stuff the wood stove. But that's a good thing 8-)

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