1909 E&J 3 tier flared front sidelights

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Alex Dragone
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1909 E&J 3 tier flared front sidelights

Post by Alex Dragone » Wed Jul 01, 2020 11:33 am

When looking at period photos of 1909 cars you will notice that many have the larger E&J 3 tier side lamps. Most of these photos show that lamp without the flared front around the round lends. My question is: does anyone have an original photo of an early 1909 with flared front 3 tier side lamps? I included a photo from an issue of the Ford Times magazine from 1909 showing a drawing of an early model T with the flared front lamps. I also included a real period photo of a car with 3 tier lamps without the flared front. Please let me know thoughts on this. Thanks!
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Re: 1909 E&J 3 tier flared front sidelights

Post by DanTreace » Wed Jul 01, 2020 1:33 pm

May be some photos out there, but all in my photo files from pics off the internet don't show any 'flared' side lamps on early T's.

This photo is from the Grand Central Auto Show, NYC, Jan. 6, 1909 and the line-up of new Fords, all the lamps are without flare.



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Re: 1909 E&J 3 tier flared front sidelights

Post by Alex Dragone » Wed Jul 01, 2020 9:42 pm

Thanks dan! Great photo! Anyone else? Any cars with flared front E&J sidelights?


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Re: 1909 E&J 3 tier flared front sidelights

Post by talbotman » Thu Jul 02, 2020 10:04 am

I think that you'll find that the larger 3-tier E & J flared-front side lamps were standard fittings on 30h.p. EMF automobiles.


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Re: 1909 E&J 3 tier flared front sidelights

Post by Terry_007 » Thu Jul 02, 2020 12:37 pm

EMF is correct but there are probably dozens of other cars that used them, and countless others whose owners bought and installed them. Some cars came without lamps - your choice to buy and install, or hang those saved from a previously owned car. These are pics from my collection for comparison.
Terry
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Pair E & J flare front 3 tier lamps.jpg
Pair E & J flare front 3 tier lamps.jpg (73.07 KiB) Viewed 582 times
Pair E & J non flare 3 tier lamps.jpg
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Re: 1909 E&J 3 tier flared front sidelights

Post by Alex Dragone » Thu Jul 02, 2020 3:24 pm

Terry, thanks for the pics. Still anyone have any pics of the flared lights on an 09? I have also seen some 09's with two tiers with flared fronts, but I have not seen a period photo of a car with two or three tier lamps with flared fronts. Anyone else?


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Re: 1909 E&J 3 tier flared front sidelights

Post by ModelT46 » Thu Jul 02, 2020 3:39 pm

`it has been well established that all of the 1909 model year Ts and those of the 1910 Model Year made in August, September 1909 that had three tier E&J side lights, the lights were the plain ones. It is thought that before John Brown lights became standard, the E&J side lights became the two tier ones. I have a nice pair of model 60 JB lights for my 1910, but I use a nice pairr of 3 tier E&Js with the flair because they look nice.
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Re: 1909 E&J 3 tier flared front sidelights

Post by Drkbp » Thu Jul 02, 2020 4:10 pm

You have probably seen this one.
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EARLY MODEL T.JPG


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Re: 1909 E&J 3 tier flared front sidelights

Post by Alex Dragone » Tue Aug 04, 2020 10:46 am

So why would Ford use the two tier E&Js with a flared front but not the three tier? If you put a three tier flared lamp next to a three tier un-flared lamp, they are literally identical other than the flared ring around the front, same for the two tier examples. Does anyone have any E&J literature from 1909, maybe they offered different versions of their lamps at different times and thats just what Ford supplied at that time? As mentioned above, other cars such as EMF, Cadillac and many others offered this lamp in 1909 as well, the same goes for the un-flared. I find it very hard to believe that Ford would have specified un-flared or flared, unless E&J offered both lamps, flared possibly being a bit more pricey so Ford specified the cheaper lamp? If you also notice in the photos above of the cars at the Grand Central auto show they have the un-flared E&J side lamps, but have Atwood Castle headlamps and I am sure they also have Atwood-Castle tail lamps as well. I believe that there had to be some cars supplied with the flared type three tier lamps, especially knowing that there definitely were some delivered new with two tier flared style lamps. Any more thoughts on this subject?


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Re: 1909 E&J 3 tier flared front sidelights

Post by Drkbp » Tue Aug 04, 2020 1:36 pm

Alex,

It seems like E&J was one of Ford's favorite lamp suppliers in the U.S. and location probably had a lot to do with it.
I would imagine that Ford would use whatever lamps were available, in a pinch, to ship the cars.

The well established E&J plant was located only 3 miles away from the Picquette Avenue Ford plant.

Parts of the E&J building (pictured in 1910) are still at 2739 Buchanan @ Humboldt Street.
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FORD TO E AND J PLANT - 1909.JPG
E&J FACTORY - DETROIT 1910.JPG
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