1909 Flywheel/Magneto problems

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Tod Wirth, WI
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1909 Flywheel/Magneto problems

Post by Tod Wirth, WI » Fri Oct 02, 2020 9:50 pm

Well I'm in a place I didn't want to be.

I have run into a bit of a road block with this 1909 water pump engine/transmission I am doing for a very good friend of mine. I found a crack in one of the magnets on the flywheel and have been looking for a replacement. I have contacted I don't know how many people trying to find one to no avail. Placed ads on the MTFCA, HCCA and ACCA sites with no results so far. Wish I would have found the cracked magnet on the initial parts inspection, so that I would have had more time to search for a replacement. Eventually I would think I could find one, but it was not to be. So that brings me to where I am now.

My plan at this point is to modify (machine) a later magnet to fit the 1909 flywheel (Not my first choice). It should work fine and can't be seen, but I think it is the lack of symmetry that really bothers me. I will be matching the weight of the original magnet, of course, and I'll have the crankshaft, flywheel, trans main shaft, triple gears and clutch pack inner drum all dynamically balanced as an assembly when I am done. While the actual machine work does not pose a problem that I see, I am more concerned about the properties of the magnet and if the machine work will in some unforeseen way negatively affect the long term ability of the magnet to hold its charge. The other concern is whether the machine work would, for some reason, lead to a high likelihood of this modified magnet also cracking/breaking.

Anybody have any experience with this type of thing?

Tod.
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HalSched
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Re: 1909 Flywheel/Magneto problems

Post by HalSched » Fri Oct 02, 2020 10:00 pm

Where in Wisconsin?? I grew up in Hamburg and that's where my T comes from. Draw a line from Wauau to Merrill to Athens and back to Wausau and Hamburg is in the middle of the triangle. I'll look at my magnets but I don't remember ever seeing one with a hole in it.

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Jem
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Re: 1909 Flywheel/Magneto problems

Post by Jem » Sat Oct 03, 2020 2:34 am

I have a small pile of these from my engine rebuild, but I'm the other side of the Atlantic. There must be someone over there with one. Kim Dobbins?


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Re: 1909 Flywheel/Magneto problems

Post by KimDobbins » Sat Oct 03, 2020 9:38 am

Jen, I don't have any extra magnets, I've givenTod all the leads I can think of. Kim

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Re: 1909 Flywheel/Magneto problems

Post by Mark Gregush » Sat Oct 03, 2020 11:09 am

I think as was suggested on another posting, to change it out to the later magnets and coil ring, IF, they are the same diameter and will fit in the narrower pan and hogs head. You would get better support from the cast coil ring over the pressed steel. This was posted on Facebook; https://www.facebook.com/photo?fbid=358 ... 1303910548
Maybe who knows?
I know the voices aren't real but damn they have some good ideas! :shock:

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Re: 1909 Flywheel/Magneto problems

Post by rgould1910 » Sat Oct 03, 2020 11:27 am

I've used a late mag coil ring in a narrow pan 1910 and it fit. Just barely though. If I recall, I had to grind down a couple of rivet heads a bit. Works fine after many years.

I sold Jim Starkey a 1910 flywheel and magnets a few years ago. . He may be able to help you. I have no contact info but I see him on the forum from time to time. Those were the same style but 9/16 " wide.

If you truly have the 1/2" ones, they are hard to find, but you could modify a 9/16" magnet to fit.


Topic author
Tod Wirth, WI
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Re: 1909 Flywheel/Magneto problems

Post by Tod Wirth, WI » Sat Oct 03, 2020 2:56 pm

Hal, You are near the center of the state. I am in the Village of Richfield which is about 30 minuets NW of Milwaukee.

Jem, PM sent.

Kim, Thanks for all the leads! None of them panned out this time, but you are the go to man for the early T's.

Mark & Richard, Tried to find Jim Starkey on the MTFCA members list, but didn't have a lot of luck so far. Can't get the list to sort by last name.

I really didn't want to modify this early engine at all by going to a later magneto setup. While it is getting a new crankshaft (for reliability as the non-original crank that was in it was bad news and a failure just waiting to happen) and aluminum pistons (which it already had), I am otherwise trying to keep the modifications to a minimum and keep it very original inside and out. It will even be running again on a the correct early Buffalo carburetor that I already restored for it. This is a combination of the owners wishes and my own.

I have also gone to some length to save the flywheel on this engine. One of the triple gear pin holes was oversized from the old pin coming loose. Bored it out and made a sleeve to press into it, to bring it back to a press fit for the pin. Sized it so that the magneto magnet bolt would also mechanically lock the sleeve in place. Very happy with the results and really didn't want to give up on it now at this point.

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Walter Higgins
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Re: 1909 Flywheel/Magneto problems

Post by Walter Higgins » Sat Oct 03, 2020 3:25 pm

Tod Wirth, WI wrote:
Sat Oct 03, 2020 2:56 pm

Mark & Richard, Tried to find Jim Starkey on the MTFCA members list, but didn't have a lot of luck so far. Can't get the list to sort by last name.

His information is contained within the yellow attachment in this post:

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3182&p=24461&hilit=starkey#p24461


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Re: 1909 Flywheel/Magneto problems

Post by rgould1910 » Sat Oct 03, 2020 3:50 pm

Nice job on the flywheel. Those early flywheels were problematic that way.

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John Warren
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Re: 1909 Flywheel/Magneto problems

Post by John Warren » Sat Oct 03, 2020 3:51 pm

Make one,?
24-28 TA race car, 26 Canadian touring, 25 Roadster pickup, 14 Roadster, and 11AB Maxwell runabout
Keep it simple and keep a good junk pile if you want to invent something :P


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Re: 1909 Flywheel/Magneto problems

Post by jab35 » Sun Oct 04, 2020 12:08 pm

If the cracked one has no value, weld it up with a Nickle alloy rod, anneal, remagnetize and see if it will hold the magnetism. Might work, and be less challenging to a capable welder/machinist than making new? from scratch, particularly if both appearance and function are important.


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Re: 1909 Flywheel/Magneto problems

Post by big2bird » Sun Oct 04, 2020 12:14 pm

jab35 wrote:
Sun Oct 04, 2020 12:08 pm
If the cracked one has no value, weld it up with a Nickle alloy rod, anneal, remagnetize and see if it will hold the magnetism. Might work, and be less challenging to a capable welder/machinist than making new? from scratch, particularly if both appearance and function are important.
I agree. Even if it wont hold a charge, you would never notice.

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Re: 1909 Flywheel/Magneto problems

Post by Susanne » Sun Oct 04, 2020 4:57 pm

big2bird wrote:
Sun Oct 04, 2020 12:14 pm
jab35 wrote:
Sun Oct 04, 2020 12:08 pm
If the cracked one has no value, weld it up with a Nickle alloy rod, anneal, remagnetize and see if it will hold the magnetism. Might work, and be less challenging to a capable welder/machinist than making new? from scratch, particularly if both appearance and function are important.
I agree. Even if it wont hold a charge, you would never notice.
Unless, of course, it's running on mag, then depending where the bum magnet lives, you'll have a pretty noticable miss...

The problem with cars like the early ones is their parts are few and far between, and it may take a machinist to duplicate the original magnet out of the appropriate steel, then magnitize it. It's a challenge, sure, but it's also part of the joy (and price) of owning one of these...


Topic author
Tod Wirth, WI
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Re: 1909 Flywheel/Magneto problems

Post by Tod Wirth, WI » Sun Oct 04, 2020 11:07 pm

Thank you for all the replies and ideas!

For this car, the owner's wishes, and I support it, is to try to keep this car as original as possible. With that the idea of changing out the whole flywheel and magneto to a later one, is not the first choice. Not intending to put down anyone that has, just not what was the goal for this car.

Talked to Jem in the UK about the magnets that he has. He is sending me two of them (he is a saint) but there is problem. They turned out to be the 9/16" thick magnets, not the 1/2" that are in this engine. Rats! May be able to modify one but as it was pointed out to me by a friend, these things are about as hard as tool steel. Didn't check that before that point. :oops: Dumb. Well that's probably the end of the idea of modifying a later magnet to fit too.

It was suggested that I try having the original welded up. While I could look into this further, some of the reading I have done on the subject makes it sound like it is really difficult to almost impossible to weld around a magnet. Also I believe the heat wound ruin the process/heat treating that made this a permanent magnet in the first place. Would have to do more research on all of this though. Admittedly, not a area that I have a lot of knowledge in. Maybe possible to demagnetize the magnet, weld the crack and then have it re-treated and re-magnetized.

While finding the correct 1/2" thick magnet for this car is what I would really, really like to do, I do have another idea that might work (and then I wouldn't have to modify a also rare 9/16" magnet that someone else might need). Machine one that is a copy of the original in weight, but embed some Neodymium disc magnets in the ends of it. I will look into the idea further.

In the mean time, if anybody knows someone that might have an extra 1/2" 1909 magnet, please let me know.

Tod.


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Re: 1909 Flywheel/Magneto problems

Post by Bryce » Mon Oct 05, 2020 8:52 am

No help for the magnet But, there is a late 1909 coil ring on Tbay right now, looks like you would have to buy bunch of other fly wheels and mag ring to get it but for $250 might be worth it.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/MODEL-T-FORD-T ... SwnaVe6U6C


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Re: 1909 Flywheel/Magneto problems

Post by big2bird » Mon Oct 05, 2020 10:59 am

A surface grinder could machine the extra 1/16" off of that spare.


Topic author
Tod Wirth, WI
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Re: 1909 Flywheel/Magneto problems

Post by Tod Wirth, WI » Tue Oct 06, 2020 10:36 am

Jeff, That is looking like the most likely solution at this point.

To ALL, According the online Encyclopedia here on the MTFCA site, the The 1/2" forged magnets were used from the start of production until March of 1910 and stopped at about serial number 17,500. After that the magnet was redesigned to a similar forging that was 9/16" thick. That design lasted until about serial #20,500 (which would be about a month later). I have come to believe that this information is incorrect.

Gail Rodda's work indicates that the 1/2" forged magnet was used on only the first 2,500 engines/cars, and with the beginning of the production 1909's they were changed to the 9/16" thick design. The fossil record seams to support this. All the photos that I have seen of 1909 engines apart show their flywheels with the 9/16" thick type magnets on them and not the type of forging that I have here. Far too many 9/16" and almost no 1/2" for the 9/16" to be used in only one months production in 1909. Unless there is a second design of the 1/2" thick magnet that looks like the 9/16" thick magnet, I think at this point that Gail Rodda has it right. This would be interesting to look into the next time I can get to the Archives.

The engine I am working on is one of the first 2500 (serial #1400). At this point I believe the magnet I need was only used up to serial #2500.

That being the case, I think the chances of finding one, within the timeline I have, are rather slim. On the other side of this though, it makes the 9/16" magnet much less rare than I was thinking as it was used well into the 1910 cars. Because of that I am not as hesitant now at modifying one of the 9/16" magnets that Jem is sending me. Will have to figure that out once they get here.

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