CANADIAN OR US BUILT 1913 TOURING?

Discuss all things Model T related.
Forum rules
If you need help logging in, or have question about how something works, use the Support forum located here Support Forum
Complete set of Forum Rules Forum Rules

Topic author
Dl6146
Posts: 3
Joined: Mon Jan 14, 2019 10:27 pm
First Name: David
Last Name: Lewis
Location: Winchester va
Board Member Since: 2018

CANADIAN OR US BUILT 1913 TOURING?

Post by Dl6146 » Tue Feb 26, 2019 10:29 am

Hello,

I have a 1913 Ford Model T Touring. The engine serial # is C 11408. I've had a couple of different opinions regarding where the car and /or engine were manufactured and assembled. Can any of the experts out there shed some light on this or direct me to a reference? Thanks very much for your assistance.

Regards,

Dave Lewis


Hardie
Posts: 8
Joined: Tue Feb 26, 2019 10:18 am
First Name: Ronald
Last Name: MacDonald
Location: Combermere, Ontario Canada
MTFCA Number: 23888
MTFCI Number: 16319

Re: CANADIAN OR US BUILT 1913 TOURING?

Post by Hardie » Tue Feb 26, 2019 10:46 am

Congratulations: 1913 was a pivotal year for Model T production in Canada. 1913 was the year Ford built Model T's with parts made in Canada as opposed to parts imported from the USA which were then assembled in Canada.
Your touring car should have four doors. A significant number of Canadian "'T's were assembled with right hand drive for export into the British Empire, to the Province of British Columbia and the Canadian Maritime Provinces. The left front door made ingress and egress easier for the right hand drive variant. It probably started life painted dark blue.
Your car, with serial number starting with "C" indicates Canadian production (there were, also, a few very early Canadian '13's with "B" prefixed serial numbers) and [it] was most likely built in Walkerville, Ontario. Walkerville was absorbed, later, into the city of Windsor, Ontario. (Across the river from Detroit)
Hope this helps


Topic author
Dl6146
Posts: 3
Joined: Mon Jan 14, 2019 10:27 pm
First Name: David
Last Name: Lewis
Location: Winchester va
Board Member Since: 2018

Re: CANADIAN OR US BUILT 1913 TOURING?

Post by Dl6146 » Tue Feb 26, 2019 11:59 am

Hardie,

Thanks very much. My 13 is a 3 door (no drivers door). Were all Canadian 13's 4 doors? Wonder if I opened up a can of worms! I'm contemplating selling the car and would like to say for certainty (if I can) if it's truly a Canadian or US built model. Do you think it would affect value based on country built in?

Thanks again for your time Hardie!

Dave


Dan Hatch
Posts: 563
Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2019 7:31 pm
First Name: Dan
Last Name: Hatch
Location: Alabama
MTFCA Number: 49974

Re: CANADIAN OR US BUILT 1913 TOURING?

Post by Dan Hatch » Tue Feb 26, 2019 5:13 pm

Dave: Look around it for anything that might say "Made IN USA". Stuff that went to Canada that had that on it was ground off, or removed some way. I have a 13 running gear that was a Canada car and the USA on the block was ground off. Mine was an early 13 so no Made in USA on the head, but the side of block was ground off. Dan.


Allan
Posts: 856
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 7:21 pm
First Name: Allan
Last Name: Bennett
Location: Gawler, Australia

Re: CANADIAN OR US BUILT 1913 TOURING?

Post by Allan » Tue Feb 26, 2019 5:40 pm

Dave, another give away for a Canadian car is the use of Robinson screws. These are driven by a square hole in the head of the screw instead of the usual slot for a plain screwdriver. The story goes that Henry did not want to pay royalties to use them in US production, so US made cars have the slot head screws.
I do not know if 1913 models had Robinson screws or when they were first used in Ford cars made in Canada, so the above may not apply.

Hope this helps.
Allan from down under.


Topic author
Dl6146
Posts: 3
Joined: Mon Jan 14, 2019 10:27 pm
First Name: David
Last Name: Lewis
Location: Winchester va
Board Member Since: 2018

Re: CANADIAN OR US BUILT 1913 TOURING?

Post by Dl6146 » Tue Feb 26, 2019 5:56 pm

Thank you Dan and Allan for the tips. I will check for those items you pointed out!!


Dan Hatch
Posts: 563
Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2019 7:31 pm
First Name: Dan
Last Name: Hatch
Location: Alabama
MTFCA Number: 49974

Re: CANADIAN OR US BUILT 1913 TOURING?

Post by Dan Hatch » Tue Feb 26, 2019 6:05 pm

Dave: I might be interested in the car if you decide to sell it. Thanks, Dan.


Allan
Posts: 856
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 7:21 pm
First Name: Allan
Last Name: Bennett
Location: Gawler, Australia

Re: CANADIAN OR US BUILT 1913 TOURING?

Post by Allan » Tue Feb 26, 2019 6:17 pm

Dave, make that Robertson screws. Robinson was my aunt and Dave Robinson does brilliant bodywork on old cars in his shop near Canberra.

Allan from down under.


wayne sheldon
Posts: 1211
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 3:13 pm
First Name: Wayne
Last Name: Sheldon
Location: Grass Valley Califunny, USA
Board Member Since: 2005

Re: CANADIAN OR US BUILT 1913 TOURING?

Post by wayne sheldon » Tue Feb 26, 2019 7:04 pm

I cannot say for certain about 1913. However I have known a couple 1915 Canadian built Fords, and they did have Robertson screws.

User avatar

Darren J Wallace
Posts: 108
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 11:43 am
First Name: Darren
Last Name: Wallace
Location: Woodstock, Ontario, Canada
Board Member Since: 2005
Contact:

Re: CANADIAN OR US BUILT 1913 TOURING?

Post by Darren J Wallace » Tue Feb 26, 2019 7:36 pm

My 1913 Canadian touring is very complete and fairly original. I have all it's documentation since new. There are no Robertson screws on it. However, the '15 I had did! It also has four doors :)
1913 Canadian Touring & 1905 Queen, both cars are 4 generation family owned cars


Hardie
Posts: 8
Joined: Tue Feb 26, 2019 10:18 am
First Name: Ronald
Last Name: MacDonald
Location: Combermere, Ontario Canada
MTFCA Number: 23888
MTFCI Number: 16319

Re: CANADIAN OR US BUILT 1913 TOURING?

Post by Hardie » Tue Feb 26, 2019 9:46 pm

Re: Your 1913 Canadian Touring car.
I am unaware of a true Canadian Model T touring built with only three doors or for that matter built without Robertson screws. Be it known I am not an absolute encyclopedia of Canadian T's but our Ontario clubs have many of them.
Canadian '13s are not too common because they didn't build too many of them. Many of those would have been scrapped in the war effort. Records indicate total 1913 Canadian T production amounted to less than 12000 units. The preponderance of those were probably touring cars. I am also unaware of any built without Robertson screws. The cars I am most familiar with, being a Canadian member of two Canadian T clubs, have Robertson screws throughout. I own seven Model Ts, accumulated over about 40 years, six of which are Canadian made.
When Henry started to produce Ts in Canada part of his motivation was to be able to supply Ts to the British Empire, without the burden of tariffs placed upon them. In that he was successful. Robertson, who resided in Milton Ontario, held the patent on Robertson screws, his invention, and manufactured them there. Henry found the Robertson screws sped up the assembly process significantly because they fit firmly to the tool being used and did not tend to fall off the end of the driver. Ford offered to buy Robertson's patent and pressured Robertson to sell. Robertson stood firm. Ford told him he (Robertson) would never market his screws in the USA and as far as I know that still stands. I have supplied screws and drivers to quite a few of your countrymen restoring Canadian Ts.
Your engine, C11408 would have been serialized in later production of the '13s. The block may have been cast in the USA but if it was that nomenclature would have been ground off; likewise the cylinder head if all is original.
Hope this helps: Ron MacDonald


Altair
Posts: 114
Joined: Thu Jan 17, 2019 11:52 am
First Name: David
Last Name: Menzies
Location: British Columbia
MTFCA Number: 27825
Board Member Since: 2012

Re: CANADIAN OR US BUILT 1913 TOURING?

Post by Altair » Tue Feb 26, 2019 10:09 pm

I don't think the Made in USA was ground off, I don't believe it was ever cast in the first place. I have a Canadian 15 and 16 engine and only Ford is cast on the block and nothing is ground off. I don't think the country of manufacture was cast in the blocks until some time in 17 or later.

User avatar

Bob McDaniel
Posts: 202
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 1:44 pm
First Name: Bob
Last Name: McDaniel
Location: Logansport In.
MTFCA Number: 28428
Board Member Since: 2007

Re: CANADIAN OR US BUILT 1913 TOURING?

Post by Bob McDaniel » Tue Feb 26, 2019 10:24 pm

This is my early 13 Touring engine cast 12-24-12
SANY1386.JPG
SANY1218.JPG
SANY1393.JPG
Give an old car guy a barn and he won't throw anything away.


Allan
Posts: 856
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 7:21 pm
First Name: Allan
Last Name: Bennett
Location: Gawler, Australia

Re: CANADIAN OR US BUILT 1913 TOURING?

Post by Allan » Wed Feb 27, 2019 6:21 am

David, the fossil evidence is contrary to your timeline for the casting of country of manufacture on engine blocks. Many, if not all early blocks in Canadian supplied cars sent to Australia show where the 'Made In USA' was ground/chiselled off. I cannot put a time to the end of this practice.

Allan from down under.


Hardie
Posts: 8
Joined: Tue Feb 26, 2019 10:18 am
First Name: Ronald
Last Name: MacDonald
Location: Combermere, Ontario Canada
MTFCA Number: 23888
MTFCI Number: 16319

Re: CANADIAN OR US BUILT 1913 TOURING?

Post by Hardie » Wed Feb 27, 2019 8:32 am

Good Morning:

As my Father was prone to say, "most things in life are not etched in stone". Then there's Ford engine blocks!

Never wanting to spread misinformation I went to my library last night and took a look at Bruce McCalley's book. In the 1913 section of "the book" on page 163 Bruce shows several angles on a USA built 1913 engine; clearly the left engine skirt and the cylinder head have "Ford made in the USA" cast into them. the '09-12 engines in Bruce's book show no such casting. I'm strongly convinced the Made in USA casting will be ground off on a Canadian built Model T, from that time period, notwithstanding where the engine was cast, again, to avoid the tariff complications with export vehicles into the British Empire.

As an aside; I mentioned earlier a significant number of Canadian cars were manufactured with right-hand drive. Thus the four door touring cars and two door runabouts. At that time period, in Canada, the Provinces of British Columbia, New Brunswick , Nova Scotia and Prince Edward Island drove on the left side of the road in the fashion of Great Britain and its colonies; one of which was Canada, (more or less). Newfoundland didn't come into Confederation till 1948 and they too drove on the left side of whatever roads existed there.

Four door touring cars: a Canadian thing.

Hope this helps. Ron MacDonald


Colin Mavins
Posts: 115
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 1:36 pm
First Name: Colin
Last Name: Mavins
Location: Winnipeg Canada
MTFCA Number: 1853

Re: CANADIAN OR US BUILT 1913 TOURING?

Post by Colin Mavins » Wed Feb 27, 2019 9:35 am

I would check the serial number it may be a poorly stamped B If it is a C ,it may be a Us car with a Canadian Block. My Sept 1912 an original car that was complete running driving car with original engine only has Ford on the block nothing removed the casting date is above the serial number ,the body was never apart original wood and there are no Robertson screws on the car. this is the car , driven home 1960
3.jpg

Post Reply Previous topicNext topic