Non-Starter vs Starter Equipped Coil Box

[ryanf1023]

I've got a 17-25 coil box that was on a starter equipped T (no switch on the front of the box). I am pretty dead-set on wiring it as a non-starter equipped, electric headlight T. I've finally found the proper wiring diagram, which leaves me a little confused.

The one terminal post for starter-equipped Ts are wired directly to the strip in the bottom of the coil box, correct? This post already has its power from the bat/mag, ran through the junction box and then the switch before reaching the post.

It looks though that for the two terminal posts on non-starter Ts, each terminal is wired to the switch, either battery or mag respectively, and then the switch itself is then wired to the bottom of the coil box?

If I'm correct on that last point, that will clear up most of my wiring trouble. It should be simple enough to mount a switch either on the box or the dashboard and wire accordingly.

If I'm not correct, can someone please help me on my coil box confusion?

[Mark Gregush]

First off what year?
Around 1919 or 1920 all cars would have been wired thru the switch on the dash and only one terminal on the coil box that was ether battery or magneto powered depending on the position of the switch.
Re this; I am pretty dead-set on wiring it as a non-starter equipped, electric headlight T. So just wire it as shown in a starter equipped car diagram.

[ryanf1023]

Hi Mark,

Thanks for the info. I always assumed that the coil box switch vs dash switch was differentiated between non-starter and starter, but it makes more sense that it was a timeline thing.

To answer your question, my build is bitsa that is almost entirely within the 1917-1925 time frame. I guess I would like a c. 1915 car with just the one headlight setting (on/off rather than bright/dim/off) where I don’t have to worry about a junction box on the firewall.

I guess I’m still confused on whether the earlier coil boxes had the flow of power from coil box terminal > switch > bottom strip in contrast to switch > coil box terminal > bottom strip.

[Sarikatime]

Someone just post a diagram of each situation, non starter versus starter coil box wireing.

[Corey Walker]

The internals of the switch send the electricity to the coil box. Inside the switch functions just like the coil box mounted switch, the headlight function is inside the switch but a separate part. The earlier cars 1919-21 still used the coil box mounted switch with a combination horn button/light switch on the steering column with the dimmer coil on the dash, later the dimmer was placed where the ammeter goes. I had a starter coilbox and temporarily ran a wire from my mag to a house light switch (no headlights) until I found a combo switch for the column and a coil box with a switch on the front.

[Oldav8tor]

I have a starter equipped '17 but have retained the original coilbox with functional Mag/Batt switch. The headlight switch is a small push-pull switch on the firewall to the right of the coilbox.

Do you plan to add a switch to your coilbox or?

Attached is a drawing showing how the box is wired when a switch is mounted to it. Switches are available from the vendors.

[Steve Jelf]

In both setups two wires (MAG and BAT) go to the switch which sends current from one or the other though a wire to the coil box strip. Both arrangements do exactly the same thing. The only real difference is the location of the switch.

In the non-starter configuration the MAG and BAT wires connect to separate box terminals which go to the switch.

In the starter system the MAG and BAT wires connect to the back of the dash switch which sends current through a wire to a single box terminal that goes to the strip.

[Mark Gregush]

The strip on the bottom is not connected directly to the power supply, the switch is in between it and power supply. What are you using for a switch, original style that would have been on cars with starter equipment and mounted on the dash or just a simple on-off-on(if running both magneto and battery) or just on-off (if single source) toggle type? In ether case all the switch does is turn the car off or chose between the sources of power that feeds the coil box. Does your coil box have 9 or 10 terminals? For cars with starter equipment normally the 10th or battery terminal would not be used if even installed. The 1919 to 1925 car coil box would not be the same as 1915 to 1919 that were equipped with switch on the front. The earlier boxes were wired as shown in the cut above with the switch on the front. In that case, the terminals on the coil box would have been the connections to the supply power supply too the switch and not connected directly to the strip until the switch was turned to the chosen power source. The 1919 to 1925 would have a single wire going from the strip on the bottom to the terminal on the lower left and if it did have the 10th terminal on the lower right it would not be used.

[George Hand]

I am confused as well, First off you have a Starter, do you have a workable/working generator as well? The no switch coil boxes for a T came out for the '19 model year. By the 1922 model year onward non starter switches were mounted on the dash (panel) as shown by the photo posted by Cory Walker same location as starter equipped T's, an angled bracket was available for "Hacks-Open express & some TT trucks, to make a mounting for the '19-25 switch panel. Are you planning on operating the headlamps on battery voltage(DC) or magneto voltage(AC)? George

[ryanf1023]

Tim, thank you for that wiring diagram. The bottom of the coil box wood was the missing piece. I was losing my mind trying to figure those bottom grooves out. I had mine improperly connected, which is why I was so dang confused. That clears up my entire issue.

I guess I have 1919-1925 coil box, as the switch is absent from the front. It came to me with nine terminals.

George, I don't have a starter or generator. My T is about 85% complete (sans body), so it's up to me to figure out the missing parts and what I want to do. I plan to have headlamps and horn run only on magneto AC, with battery DC exclusively for starting.

Thank you all for your replies

[George Hand]

Ryan, You say no starter, so now I am to take it that the "hogshead" is pre starter or does it have block off plates. I am sure someone closer to you may have a non starter coil box(the later ones w/o the brass front plate are not very desirable) to donate for the cost of shipping. George

[Corey Walker]

The coil box should be an easy find, the combo light switch and dimmer coil may be more difficult. If you want to run the lights from a battery you could wire that switch to the battery instead of mag and not use the dimmer coil but you’d need a battery horn because one wire from the mag goes into the switch which powers the headlights and horn.

[BE_ZERO_BE]

Here is a link to the MTFCI website for color coded wiring diagrams.

https://nebula.wsimg.com/3a0733937917a1 ... oworigin=1

[George Hand]

Corey, Ryan has indicated that his "bitsi" car has no starter or generator, he is looking to run the lights w/o a dimmer & use the magneto for lights & a magneto horn. George

[Corey Walker]

That’s how mine is but the dimmer coil keeps the mag from burning out the headlights. It’s not used on the battery headlights. I thought he wanted to run on mag but have battery powered lights.

[TRDxB2]

The coil box should be an easy find, the combo light switch and dimmer coil may be more difficult....

I have several no-starter switches (17-25 as well as 26) and dimmer coils in case anyone is looking

[ryanf1023]

Ah, I didn't know a dimmer coil was used on mag lights. I do know of potential burnouts for mag lights, depending on the voltage and how much power the mag is putting out. I just assumed the dimmer coil was for the dim setting for the headlights. Lots to learn!

[Steve Jelf]

The dimmer was added in late 1917. Before that the current for headlamps went directly from mag to switch to lights to ground. The dimmer was to reduce bulb burnout, and from that you might think that bulb failure was a frequent problem, but my experience with 1915 lights is that the bulbs do eventually go, but they last a long time before they do. Of course you can make them really last if you use the 24v bulbs sold by the parts dealers, but with those you won't have enough light to see anything.

[ryanf1023]

I've a question for my switch and figure I could reuse this old thread.

In order to properly clean this, I'm going to have to undo the rivets. However, it is incredibly unclear to me the general construction of the switch. If I were to drill from the back side, would I not damage the threads for the brass that ultimately hold the screws and the wires? And why does it look like there are two layers of rivets?

I see nothing about the split insulators (the two donuts for the side terminals, and the larger one on the bottom), as well. All I can see in the catalog is this following one.

In fact, the more I look through online catalogs, it seems the modern replacement internals look nothing like the setup used here.

I've got so many questions about the switch that I don't even know where to begin. I am starting to lose my mind over this and I'm really hoping forum members could please enlighten me on how to fix and make useable what should be a simple routine. It seems like such a waste of a useable piece to replace the entire thing with a plastic one.

[Mark Gregush]

Why not just take a meter or test light and check for shorts to ground before taking it apart? Once the cover is on, no one will be able to see what is inside.

[TRDxB2]

You have a later style ignition switch (see diagrams). These don't come apart as easily as the older rubber housing style. So unless you have a new set of matching rivets I would not attempt to take the switch apart. I have done a descent cleaning on this style by using a Dremel tool's wire brushes. Looking pretty isn't important as its covered up by a metal cover. So as suggested check for shorts. Consider a method to seal the fiber insulators. Might also gently wet metal base with some rust restorer (Evapo, KrudKutter) after sealing fiber. Best to do minimal cleaning. I'm still working on mine...

[ryanf1023]

Thanks Frank. I didn't know there were multiple types.

Is there an easy method to remove the switch lever? If I could remove that and clean the bottom contact and the switch lever itself, that would solve my issue and I could move on with the project.

[TRDxB2]

Thanks Frank. I didn't know there were multiple types.

Is there an easy method to remove the switch lever? If I could remove that and clean the bottom contact and the switch lever itself, that would solve my issue and I could move on with the project.

I don't know of anyway to remove the switch lever other than to take the main contact apart (not worth it). I used some fine emery cloth (or 1000grut wet dry sandpaper) to clean the lever and between the contacts jaws. As long as the contact clips are tight making good contact and you have continuity that's all that's needed. One drop of oil on the brass switch post should do it.