1915 Touring Value

[Givensfamily]

Short of it- Where might I find published value (a sale or auction) on a 1915 Touring (mostly original) that does NOT run?

Long of it- My grandparent's estate is being settled and I need to provide the value of my grandpa's old T to the lawyers. I was gifted it in 2016 to use as the getaway car in my wedding. It had been in a barn for 40 years (grandpa dented the back when he went in reverse by pressing the wrong pedal and refused to drive it after). The car was home to a family of mice since then, but thankfully most of the damage was cosmetic. I put a lot of work into it (reupholstered the seats, new tires, new carb, oil change, new gaskets, new batteries+wiring, new brakes) but a broken valve was something I couldn't repair. Now it's been in my garage as I save up to get it to a mechanic (I've seen on the forum an engine rebuild can be $2k+) but the lawyers have come calling (and since it being a gift wasn't in writing, it is technically part of their estate). It is priceless to me, but I also want to be accurate with what I send the lawyers.

I can find working Ts value (see links below) but there isn't much in the way of non running (but complete) Ts. Any guidance or reference is appreciated!

Hagerty- https://www.hagerty.com/apps/valuationt ... rd-model_t
Auction history- https://www.conceptcarz.com/valuation/7 ... del-t.aspx
Reasonable comp? https://www.classic.com/veh/1916-ford-m ... 1-3Wk9YR4/

Thanks in advance,
Tanner

[John kuehn]

If it’s a pretty much original with the original engine still in it and has been out of the weather that is a good plus. If it has a good title that’s another good thing. If the body wood is still pretty good that’s another. The radiator is another item to consider if it’s the original. If it is it may or may not cool very well. They are expensive to repair or replace.
Since it does not run that’s a downside but a T restorer might could get it to run if there isn’t to much mechanically wrong with the engine.
That being said I would think the top price like it is would be around 10 to 12,000 dollars.
The brass era cars will bring more money than the later T’s BUT condition always plays a big part in determining a price.
Others will have their opinion also.
If your car would not have been inside that would knock the price down a lot. Luckily yours was inside!
Good Luck.

[cwlittle]

Pictures would be a big help. Also the vin #/engine number
If you replaced the" battery and wiring" then one would assume it has a starter? So perhaps not the original engine?
Having dealt with estates, you want a fair, definitely NOT inflated, value.

[david_dewey]

You gave a good description. Now since this is an estate settlement, the value is as it was before you started working on it. From your description, I would say it was likely around $5,000, OR LESS depending on the body damage your grandpa did. All the work you did on it, thinking it was your car, is not part of the estate value!! The lawyers are looking for money, you may have to prove what condition it was in when you received it--I hope you have some photos! A mouse-infested T is not worth what a cleaned up, reupholstered T is worth. A barn-find non-running T with mouse damage and rotted tires is not a "big price" item. Also, be aware that many later Ts are "backdated" to look like a '15, and their value is much less than a real '15. A knowledgeable T person can tell you if that is what you have--there are lots of clues to backdated Ts. In that case, I would say $3,500-$5,000 value. Also note that location is a big factor, Ts are much cheaper in various pats of the country as demand/supply varies.
BTW, if a broken valve is your engine's problem, you can replace the valves (they are likely two piece valves and should be replaced as they are known to break and cause other damage) and see if that gets you a running engine. Have a club member come over and give you some advice.

[Givensfamily]

Thanks for the reply, John. Yes, the upholstery saw the worst of it. Not sure how well the radiator cools, but it and the engine are original as best as I can tell. Great-grandpa traded for it sometime in the late 50s early 60s so unfortunately I don't know much about its previous history. Based on all the details like you mention, I may have to seek out an antique dealer or the like to get a value.

Don't remind me about the brass! Quite a bit of elbow grease went into turning that greenish brown into something shiny! Attached are photos of her "maiden voyage" being pushed down the street and a full view. I'll have to see if I can find a picture prior to its restoration...

Cheers,
Tanner

[RajoRacer]

I'm going to assume since he stated "batteries" (plural), he most likely replaced the coils, often mistaken for "batteries" !

[Givensfamily]

Thanks for the replies Charlie and David.

It's the battery coils (battery box) and wiring to the spark plugs that I replaced. It's still a hand crank starter (still worried about a broken arm with all the stories I've read here). Yes, it isn't a fight with my relatives about who it belongs to thankfully, but I don't want to slap a price on it that isn't a realistic value.

I think I have some photos from when we first pulled it out, but they might not be detailed close ups. I'd love to meet up with someone local, hopefully I've come to the right place and will find someone here! I haven't made it to the T museum in Richmond, IN to talk to some experts about it, but hope to sometime soon. The whole process has been on the backburner after I was heartbroken I couldn't get it to run. From the research I did back when, to get the valve replaced (the top is sheared off so half is still in the engine) I have to take off the top of the engine with a hoist or something like that which I don't have access to.

Thanks again for the input,
Tanner

[speedytinc]

Your comp @ 6K. Thats good documentation. You can easily argue 15's & 16's are equivalent. Propose a minimum deduction of 2K for not runnable & body damage. If your 15 is dirty, or worse paint than your comp, deduct more, using your pretty comp auction car as a starting point. Get estimates for the needed mechanical & body repair work. Its all what you can bring in the way of documentation. For goodness sake, dont show an idiot's valuation of 186K It ought to be easy to get it down to $3500
For estate valuation only. Not saying your T isnt worth more
Last night I got to see a really really nice correct restored show quality 14 touring just purchased for 10K

[Givensfamily]

Thanks, John.

The lawyers don't seem to bothered, all they want is a screenshot of one for sale or the like.

Getting an estimate is a good idea for the estate as well as my own purposes; it'll give me a goal for my budget to repair it. I imagine I can't go to any old mechanic, does anyone have a suggestion on a restorer I can get a repair quote from online or will I have to find someone local?

Yes, to me it is priceless, but the lawyers don't need to know that! I'm a ways off from show quality here, so good to know I should deduct from there.

Tanner

[Scott_Conger]

Tanner

there are appraisals and then there appraisals

early in my career I was a watchmaker and one of the "products" in the jewelry store where I worked was performing appraisals on jewelry, watches, etc.

If the owner was looking for "replacement value" in the event of a theft, meaning, going right out and buying a replacement without years of shopping, then the appraisal was a pretty high appraisal so that the owner could accomplish this.

If the owner was looking for an "estate value" meaning that Grammy just died and left you some jewelry and your sibling was supposed to get equal value in cash, well you're looking for the sales value of the jewelry, as in how much cash would it raise, the sale of which is SIGNIFICANTLY lower than trying to buy it.

You are looking for the "estate value" of the vehicle which from the sound of it as received, is going to be pretty low

I personally believe David Dewey is close, but still high for the year of the car, the length of time out of service and the overall condition of the upholstery, plus facing potentially $6K of engine/transmission work (hate to burst your bubble).

Here is an example of an as yet unsold T...the price would be a "replacement price" so you can figure that an "estate price" would be 1/2 that...yes it's a different year, but frankly when T's reach this state of condition, it has to be a '12-13 or earlier to fetch more money and sometimes not even that much more (though '09-11 is an entirely different story). Any competent antique car appraiser given the task of coming up with an "estate appraisal" should be able to provide it on his letterhead with less than 2 hours invested in the research.
https://vintagecarsandparts.com/cars-pr ... -t-touring

[Dan B]

I suggest searching on the Vehicle classifieds on this site for realistic values. Vehicle values “on the outside” are all over the place. A random huckster at a public sale will bring more than a brass car posted on this site if someone there just has to have it.

https://mtfca.com/phpBB3/viewforum.php?f=4

[Steve Jelf]

From your description it sounds like the car has no battery. Those things in the coil box are coils. Theoretically the car should start without a battery, with current from the magneto firing the coils. That kind of start requires a brisk pull of the crank to turn the mag fast enough to generate enough juice. In the real world it's easier to start a T using a battery to fire the coils. That's why the switch on the coil box has two settings, MAG and BAT. Starting on battery you don't have to pull the crank fast. Note that I said pull. This page explains why: http://dauntlessgeezer.com/DG101.html

Yes, to replace the valves you will need to remove the head. Being of the elderly persuasion and therefore feeble, I lift it with a hoist. Lots of younger folks lift it by hand. For that and many other procedures, refer to the Service Manual: http://dauntlessgeezer.com/DG80.html

Here's a general guide on prices: http://dauntlessgeezer.com/DG99.html

Milt Webb's checklist is popular for reviving a T from a long slumber: http://dauntlessgeezer.com/DG93.html.
You can skip the parts that refer to the electric starter.

[kmatt2]

You probably are going to need your own lawyer on this. The estate lawyer is saying that because you can't prove the car was given to you in 2016 for your wedding, then it still belongs to the estate. Your lawyer is going to show that you have graged the car out of the weather on your property since 2016 at a storage value of $$$$. Your lawyer will also say that you fixed the many issues with the car at a cost of $$$$ in parts and labor. The end result will be that the estate will owe you the difference between the 2016 damaged value and the 2021 stored and fixed value. My guess is that the estate lawyer will give you the car for your work and storage cost over the last five years. You may have to file a mechanic's lien depending on your State"s laws. Good luck, it is clear that your grandfather wanted you to have the car because of your interest in working on it.

[Dan Hatch]

What is problem with fixing valve??
I once replaced a broken one in Roamer’s Retreat Campground in Kinzer Pa.
Took an hour and drove car for 10 years before a real valve job.
Get the Service Manual and have at it.
Good luck with the Liar.

Wait that was supposed to be lawyer. These phones have a mind of their own.

[speedytinc]

You probably are going to need your own lawyer on this. The estate lawyer is saying that because you can't prove the car was given to you in 2016 for your wedding, then it still belongs to the estate. Your lawyer is going to show that you have graged the car out of the weather on your property since 2016 at a storage value of $$$$. Your lawyer will also say that you fixed the many issues with the car at a cost of $$$$ in parts and labor. The end result will be that the estate will owe you the difference between the 2016 damaged value and the 2021 stored and fixed value. My guess is that the estate lawyer will give you the car for your work and storage cost over the last five years. You may have to file a mechanic's lien depending on your State"s laws. Good luck, it is clear that your grandfather wanted you to have the car because of your interest in working on it.

All this is correct and fair and conforms to your grandfathers intent.
However, a lawyer could cost way more than a reasonable, (low valuation) set on the car could cost you. You could easily loose twice as much in the fight for fairness. I learned this lesson the hard way.

[perry kete]

Why not have all the surviving family members sign a statement that Grandpa did indeed gift you the car and that they have no interest or claim to it because it was a gift.

Sometimes we tend to create an issue where there isn't one, I'm sure the lawyer just needs a note from someone as to it's value to put in the file. If a family member has the POA or is the executor they may be able to gift you the car again.

[kmatt2]

No, it depends on the mechanic's lien laws in the State and what his pictures show the prior to 2016 condition of the car to be. It also depends if a family member can support that grandfather gave him the car for his wedding. He sould check with legal aid services in his area.

[Charlie B in N.J.]

Figure out what you can pay and give them that figure. Believe me they haven’t got a flippin’clue.

[John kuehn]

The idea of asking the family members to sign a notarized statement saying the car was a gift from your Grandfather is a good idea. I would at least try to do something similar to that and it would pretty much leave you the one who would get the car. I don’t know how much the lawyers have influence in your decision but a notarized statement from the other family members would go a long way for you to get the car. It would seem that the value of the car would be deducted from the overall estate and that would be what you would get. Call you other family members and see if they would sign a statement and have it notarized in front of a notary. It sure wouldn’t hurt to try before making things more complicated than it has to be.

[Givensfamily]

Thanks all for the replies! Lots to be done it seems, but I appreciate the input immensely!

Scott, based on your feedback and others I am leaning more and more towards finding an appraiser (it's what we did with grandma's jewelry already, the appraisal cost more than the jewelry was worth however....). I am very glad I didn't just send over a recent sale and call it a day.

Steve, thanks for the resources! I actually referenced that material when I tried to get it running, but couldn't get the engine to start so stalled at that step (no pun intended). Good to have it handy again.

Kevin, I was hoping to not get messy and bring in another lawyer, as I'm afraid that might make my relatives unhappy and they have been pretty relaxed in not trying to claim the car themselves. Might be worth looking into though and storage costs wasn't even something I considered that I could ask to deduct.

Dan, I'll have to get some pictures and make another post to get some ideas on how to get it running. The top of the valve stem broke off and I can't get at the rest of it unless I take apart the motor (not just remove the head but the whole engine block it seems). I was almost hoping the lawyers would do all this work themselves, but they'll have me do it and get a cut of whatever its worth as their "fees" I suppose.

Perry and John, like my response to Kevin there is some thin ice involved between relatives and I don't want to test my luck. Part of this is because there are some other antiques involved and everyone wants equal value out of what they receive. Might be something to try if the lawyers don't like the value I give or things get too complicated.

Thanks again all for the feedback! It is greatly appreciated! The current plan is to see if I can find a reasonably priced antique car appraiser nearby and have them take a look. Otherwise I'll see if I can get some deductions from comparable sales based on its condition/work I put in. Lots of info shared here that I hadn't considered.

So happy to have such an active and supportive community to get feedback from!

Cheers,
Tanner

[david_dewey]

This response is not about the value of the car, but of the VALVE problem. Removing the head doesn't usually require any hoist, but having a second person there is a plus. That the valve head broke off really is a sign of the original two-piece valves. They do that!! Modern one piece valves seldom do that. The part that is in the block is accessible by removing the side plate (passenger side of the engine). There are a few specialized tools that make the job easier, but they are nothing fancy, and many T owners have these tools. basically you have to compress the valve spring and pull out the keeper pin, then the stem goes out the top. No major surgery here--an experienced person can easily do it in an afternoon, if there are no complications.
The model T engine can be very forgiving of things not being kept to modern clearance standards! But, you do have to know where & when you can "fudge" things. That's why having someone to go to can be a BIG help.
BUT!! First get the ownership thing figured out! Hate to see you do a whole lot of stuff for nothing (which you already have done, it looks super).

[John Codman]

I don't consider myself elderly (elderly begins one year older then I am) but I pulled the head on my '27 (for inspection purposes) without a hoist. A couple of hardware store pulleys and some sash cord would be enough for a hoist if you feel that you need one.
I like the idea of other who are beneficiaries in the will signing notarized documents stating that the car is yours. I would do no more work on the car until this issue is resolved.
I also am skeptical of appraisals; the appraised or "Blue Book" price may (and usually is) far from what the T actually sells for. I bought my T in Massachusetts - a state that feels that it has the right to establish fair market value, and taxes the sale based on that value. I bought my T for close to $5,000 less then the Commonwealth's sales tax value. Massachusetts extorted about $300 in sales tax that I didn't owe. I wouldn't have purchased the car for the Massachusetts sales tax value.

[Michael Peternell]

Please see current classifieds. I think it's a good honest number. If it's a `15.