Spoke safety

[Oldav8tor]

Recently I've had occasion to discuss whether or not spokes needed replacement with a couple of different owners. I had others tell me that spokes were fine that I thought should be replaced. Comments like: "Just soak them in a kiddie pool" etc. I thought I'd share my own personal experience and see what others have to say.

I have a mix of new and 100 year old spokes in the wheels on my car. I check them for looseness but in particular, I look at the condition of the tenon poking thru the wheel felloe. If the spokes are tight and the tenon in good shape I consider the wheel to be OK. If the top of the tenon is eroded (looks like a wart to me) I consider the wheel to be unsafe. Too much side load and I fear the tenon could shear right off.

Photo one shows an old spoke with an eroded (warty) tenon and a new one recently re-done by Stutzman.
Photo two shows a removed eroded spoke next to a similar one with the tenon sheared off. I laid the tenon on the edge of my workbench and gave the spoke a couple of moderate whacks with a hammer. The tenon sheared off and went flying. I didn't have a new spoke to test but I suspect it would have taken a lot more force to break the end off.

Would those with more experience care to chime in?

[TXGOAT2]

Wood deteriorates more rapidly when it is in contact with iron or steel. Any place in a structure that tends to trap moisture will cause wood to decay more raidly. The condition of the body of a spoke is not a complete indicator of its overall condition. The exposed body portion can look good and the tenon and butt of the spoke can still be bad. Spokes can be tight at the hub and loose at the rim. A wheel can appear to be tight, but the tightness may be due in part to rust at the point where the spokes and felloe meet, and rust and dirt in the hub. Such a wheel would tend to loosen up in service, and the hazard that decayed outer spoke ends presents is obvious. Failure would probably occur when rounding a curve, and it would probably be a total failure of the wheel.

[Jerry VanOoteghem]

Tim,

None of those old spokes are fit for use.

Looking at the shoulders, (the flat area surrounding the tenons), you can see that they've been worn shiny by movement between them and the felloes. That means that they've been worn too short for use. Some will shim the tapered ends to force the spokes outward and to reinstate tightness, but most likely, the relative movement that wore on the shoulders, also wore on the tenon diameters, making them too small, even if there aren't rotted to nubs.

It's an odd quirk of human nature that makes a lot of Model T guys unable to give up on a part that's worn out and done for. Ya, that's me sometimes too

[TXGOAT2]

Wheels are too critical to safe operation to take chances with. Beyond that, decayed wheels cannot give good service, regardless of safety. Marginal wheels will continue to decay.

[Rich Eagle]

There is a lot of information and remedies that has been used over the years. I have repaired several old wheels that still work fine today. I would not dream of encouraging anyone to use these ideas. There is just too much danger in trusting them. Wheels are worth gambling on. New ones are your best choice.
Rich

[Henry K. Lee]

If people go cheap on spokes, tires, bearings, tubes, suspension items but install high dollar disc brakes as a security blanket...., forget all of the above and get a damn good life insurance policy!

[jab35]

Get life insurance that will pay for death attributed to suicide. And for estate property protection, purchase also a huge liability policy. jb

[Steve Jelf]

I agree, wheels are not the place to skimp. If some of the spokes have gone bad, or if they have worn so much that the wheel is loose, I replace them all with new spokes. For wood felloe wheels I send them to Noah Stutzman. For steel felloe wheels I install new spokes with the Regan press.

[Rich P. Bingham]

To digress:
Motor Wheel Corp. produced artillery wheels with spokes that had a hemispherical profile at the tenon end, which corresponded to a depression in the steel felloe, thus "sealing" end grain from water and mud. Over 50 years ago I encountered a set for Model T, and often wonder if they were an after-market replacement, or if Ford contracted for them. Has anyone else come across them ?

(Last ones I saw were on a 1922 Packard)

[Dan Hatch]

Rich I have seen them for Model T. But don’t know if Motor Wheel made them.

[Oldav8tor]

Thanks for all the comments. I agree, spokes are not the place to save $$.

Rich, funny you should ask...is the wheel pictured below what you're talking about? I haven't done anything with it yet. I talked to Noah Stutzman about it once and he said he usually drills a hole in the "bump" and installs conventional spokes.

IMG_0674.jpg (74.94 KiB) Viewed 3540 times

[Rich P. Bingham]

Tim, yup. That's the critter. I have a feeling these age better than the conventional "through the felloe" tenon. Of course it would take special tooling to reproduce, but it Would be a shame to alter an original, sound wheel by drilling the felloe. We do whatever is needed to keep 'em rolling, though.

Thank you for posting that photo !

[Oldav8tor]

Rich - the spokes in mine are solid and overall look good. I took it off the car because it has a slight wiggle. I'm not sure if the problem is in the rim or spokes. It would be interesting to know some of the history behind the design.

[JBog]

If you have just one or two cracked spokes on a wheel can you just replace those, or do you need to replace all of them on that wheel?

[Stephen_heatherly]

If you have just one or two cracked spokes on a wheel can you just replace those, or do you need to replace all of them on that wheel?

Replace them all.

Stephen

[Oldav8tor]

FWIW - I understand spokes cost about $12 apiece now, $144 for one wheel. I believe Stutzman charges $167 to re-spoke a steel felloe wheel. Of course there's the cost of shipping to consider, but personally I like having my wheels re-done by someone who has done hundreds of them and has the equipment to do a good job. I visited his shop a couple of weeks back and was duly impressed.

[jiminbartow]

A “slight wiggle” is enough to stop driving the car to replace all the spokes of the wheel in question. It is the tight, outward pressure of the spoke on the rim that enables the wheel to support the weight of the car. The presence of a “slight wiggle” means this strength is no longer present. The Model T is not a car you want to be in when it rolls over. Do not take the risk. Jim Patrick

[Allan]

It depends on the root cause of 'a slight wiggle'. If the slight wiggle is due to runout on a sound wheel, there is no need for drastic fixes. That wiggle can often be reduced by tuning the rim fitment on the felloe. If there is a slight wiggle due to looseness on a front wheel, the wheel bearings/king pins need to be examined to eliminate either for the problem. Then the spokes need attention. An easy way to ascertain any loose spokes is to rap each in turn with your knuckle, either hand will do. You will hear a distinct difference in sound between a tight and loose spoke. A visual clue is rust coloured staining around the spoke at the felloe end, indicating that that spoke has been 'working' in the felloe.

My barn fresh buckboard has had attention paid to two of its original wheels, involving wedges at the hub. For the limited use I give it, and to maintain the integrity of the car's history, I will not be changing things unless safety demands it. At present all 4 wheels are tight. I am considering treating the dry spokes with Penetrol, but will test first to see what difference it will make to their appearance.

Allan from down under.

[Oldav8tor]

Jim,
In my short tenure in the Model T world I have learned that a lot of fellas will tolerate much more wiggle in a wheel than I will. Ignorance is not bliss. Knowing that you have good wheels, bearings, etc., is great for safety and peace of mind. Thanks for sharing your insights.

[jiminbartow]

In December 2010, I accidentally discovered that the spokes were bad on my right front wheel when I ran out of gas and was waiting for a friend to bring me a gallon of gas. While I was waiting, I was walking around the car and noticed a fine layer of brown dust around the spokes. I approached the wheel and to my alarm. The spokes were loose. A slight wiggle. I put the car in neutral and pushed it a little ways and as the right front wheel turned each spoke produced a distinct click as the spoke seated itself in the hole of the rim. Needless to say, I did not drive the car again until I re-spoked the wheel. You can see all the threads that dealt with my little adventure. www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/331880/37 ... 1375212148. Jim Patrick

[Allan]

Those are classic symptoms Jim. The rust dust comes first, as the spokes 'work' in the felloe. The clicking comes a little later when they have become looser. It is best heard when pushing the car around without the motor running. Time then for a rebuild.

Allan from down under.