Help! Engine Rod Knock Babbitt Disintegrated

Pizman · Post by **Pizman** » Sun Oct 10, 2021 3:29 pm

I’ll try to keep the back story short but here it goes. I began restoring my 1927 model t with my father when I was 15 (30 some years ago). It’s been an off and on project since then. My father gave the car to me about 8 years ago and has since passed away so I was tired of just looking at it collecting dust and decided to finish the restoration. The engine was rebuilt almost 25 years ago and was only run a few times until this year because we had issues with coils. Finally I was able to get the coils properly setup and it was running ok, still not the greatest but at least it ran. I took it out for a couple small rides, seemed ok, so my son and I decided to take it out a bit further. Was cruising in high speed doing about 30mph and after about 15 minutes noticed a bit of a knocking noise, so I slowed down and it started getting worse. I shut off the the engine then got my wife to tow me back home.
After some searching on the forums I tried testing for rod knock grounding out a cylinder at a time. When I grounded number two the noise changed and got louder. So I shut it off immediately and drained the oil, took off the inspection plate and this is what I found. Now the question is how to fix it and also noticed rod number one has a bit of play in it too, how much is too much? Should I be replacing all four rods? This engine was supposedly professionally rebuilt and only has a few hours and approximately 25miles on it. Wondering if trying to run it with the faulty coils (double sparking?) could have done some damage. What other things should I be checking now?
Sorry for all the questions, I’m still rather new/refreshing myself into this.
I would love to have someone come out to look at it but have had no luck finding anyone in my area (Near Saskatoon Saskatchewan).
Any help is greatly appreciated. I’ve had so much trouble getting it to run just right that I’m ready to take it somewhere and get help but just don’t know where or who.

Pizman · Post by **Pizman** » Sun Oct 10, 2021 3:33 pm

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Post by **Dan Hatch** » Sun Oct 10, 2021 3:39 pm

Do you have the Ford Service Manual? If you do it tells you how to adjust the rods and everything else you will ever want to know.
If you do not have one, you should get one.
The original hardback ones are best. Pictures are clear in them.
Green paperback reproduction are next. They are the first reproduction. Good luck. Dan

Post by **Pat Branigan Wisc** » Sun Oct 10, 2021 3:44 pm

I hope you don't have another problem with the fourth main not getting oil as you said you pulled it home. Hopefully it wasn't to far and fast.

Joe Bell · Post by **Joe Bell** » Sun Oct 10, 2021 3:57 pm

Check your crank for roundness with a good set of mics or dials if crank is out of round it will just do this again, some install new rods with out checking crank and this is what happens, not saying the crank was not ground but to loose a rod in that short of time makes me wonder.

Norman Kling · Post by **Norman Kling** » Sun Oct 10, 2021 4:00 pm

I would suggest you pull off the caps of all 4 to check the babbitt If any others are deterioriated, you pull the entire engine and have all the bearings re-done including the mains. Also check the internal oil line from the rear of the engine to the front behind the timing gear. If that line gets plugged you will get no oil to the front of the engine. I recommend a second oil line. All 3 of mine have one from the magneto plug to the front of the engine and on at least one engine it lasted 10 years before I realized there was a problem with the inside oil line.
Norm

Pizman · Post by **Pizman** » Sun Oct 10, 2021 4:04 pm

Thanks for the replies I have the Ford service manual and it talks about dressing down the caps, but looking at my babbits do I have enough left or should I be replacing the rod?

Luke · Post by **Luke** » Sun Oct 10, 2021 4:23 pm

Per Dan's suggestion below is the owners manual information on adjusting connecting rod bearings, and attached is the more detail service manual information.

People have given good advice here. You'll need to replace the babbit on that cap and rod, (or replace the rod+cap - can be done from the bottom without removing the head), check the others, and repair/replace if necessary. Per Norm's suggestion check that oil feed line.

Make sure you've got plenty of the right weight oil in the sump, then try again...

Connecting Rod Bearings - how adjusted?

Answer No, 33

Connecting rod bearings may be adjusted, without taking out the engine, by the
following method: (1) drain off the oil; (2) remove plate on bottom of crank case—
exposing connecting rods; (3) take off first connecting rod cap, and draw-file the
ends—a very little at a time; (4) replace cap, being careful to see that file marks
correspond, and tighten bolts until it fits shaft snugly; (5) test tightness of bearing
by turning engine over by the starting handle. Experienced mechanics usually
determine when the bearing is properly fitted by lightly tapping each side of the
cap with a hammer; (6) then loosen the bearing and proceed to fit the other
bearings in the same manner; (7) after each bearing has been properly fitted and
tested—then tighten the cap bolts and insert cotter pins and the work is finished,

Remember, there is a possibility of getting the bearings too tight, and under such
conditions the babbitt is apt to cut out quickly, unless precaution is taken to run
ine motor slowly at the start. It is a good plan after adjusting the bearings to
jack up the rear wheels and let the motor run slowly for about two hours (keeping
it well supplied with water and oil) before taking it out on the road. Whenever
possible these bearings should be fitted by an expert Ford mechanic.
Worn connecting rods may be returned, prepaid, to the nearest dealer or branch
house for exchange at a price of $0.60 each to cover the cost of rebabbitting. It is
not advisable for any owner or repair shop to a attempt the rebabbitting of connect-
ing rods or main bearings, for without a special jig in which to form the bearings
satisfactory results will not be obtained. The constant tapping of a loose connect-
ing rod on the crank shaft will eventually produce crystallization of the steel—
result, broken crank shaft and possibly other parts of the engine damaged

Post by **Oldav8tor** » Sun Oct 10, 2021 4:30 pm

I realize Calgary isn't close to you but maybe they know of someone a little closer to Saskatoon who could give you a hand. Might be worth a try.

Calgary Foothills Model T Ford Club
c/o Kristin Anderson
Box 21
Hussar AB T0J 1S0

Luke · Post by **Luke** » Sun Oct 10, 2021 4:32 pm

Brent,

It looks as if you posted while I was writing. You will need to replace the rod, or at least re-metal that and the cap. Not only does it look as if the babbitt adhesion to the rod is poor (and would continue disintegrating) but you've lost most of the bearing material from each side, meaning the rod could float laterally on the shaft.

You must check the other bearings before continuing. Easy enough to do while you've got the bum off it. You may be lucky and find it's just that one that deteriorated, but given what I see there's no way I'd want to run it again without a thorough check of all bearing surfaces (incl mains). You should be able to do sufficient a check without pulling the engine, but if there are any indications of main bearing issues it'll need to come out...

Pizman · Post by **Pizman** » Sun Oct 10, 2021 5:06 pm

Thanks everyone for the help. Just a quick look at the remaining rods they still look alright only number one has a slight movement up down but really very slight, I’m still not sure what is acceptable. The babbitts look intact though.
For the mains do I need to pull the caps to check or would I just see play if I grabbed the crank?

Post by **TXGOAT2** » Sun Oct 10, 2021 5:27 pm

You may have an oil line problem. That would likely affect # 1 & 2 cylinder first. I would replace the bad rod(s) if the crank pins are within spec for size and roundness. They need to be under .002 out of round. The crank pins will need to have any smeared-on babbit removed with emery cloth before checking. I would also check the front main bearing. The cause of the failure could be a problem with the rod itself, the oil line or how it was placed, or some kind of foreign material interfering with that particular rod getting oil. Or the rod could have been mis-fitted. It's not a big issue if the crankshaft is OK, but it needs to be diagnosed and repaired correctly.

Pizman · Post by **Pizman** » Sun Oct 10, 2021 5:37 pm

I do have the external oil line from the magneto post also. The engine was rebuilt with only a few hours of run time, I wouldn’t think that it would be plugged already? But that said it does leak oil like a sieve from the gasket joint between the hogs head, the oil pan and engine block right in that corner it seems to be coming out. When I stopped the oil was low but still above the lower petcock.

Post by **TXGOAT2** » Sun Oct 10, 2021 5:39 pm

Does this car run on magneto, or does it have a complete magneto assembly in it, working or not?

Pizman · Post by **Pizman** » Sun Oct 10, 2021 5:46 pm

Yes it does run on magneto. Runs much better on magneto than it did on battery once the coils were setup.

Post by **Jerry VanOoteghem** » Sun Oct 10, 2021 5:51 pm

Pizman wrote: ↑
Sun Oct 10, 2021 5:06 pm
Thanks everyone for the help. Just a quick look at the remaining rods they still look alright only number one has a slight movement up down but really very slight, I’m still not sure what is acceptable. The babbitts look intact though.
For the mains do I need to pull the caps to check or would I just see play if I grabbed the crank?

You can't tell anything with "just a quick look". If the babbitt you show went bad in 25 miles or so, then something is seriously wrong with the babbitt job. Remove the other rod caps and have a look.

As for your oil leak. You should not have such a serious leak from between the hogshead and the block, as you describe it. Maybe the felt gasket/seal between the hogshead and block is either missing, or fell inside the engine while installing the hogshead.

Post by **Jerry VanOoteghem** » Sun Oct 10, 2021 5:53 pm

BTW, since I see no cotter pins in your rod bolts, I'm hoping those nuts are the interference type so they can't come loose.

Pizman · Post by **Pizman** » Sun Oct 10, 2021 6:10 pm

I was wondering about the missing cotter pins too, the bolts were still tight but I don’t know what the torque is supposed to be on them.

Post by **TFan** » Sun Oct 10, 2021 6:28 pm

Being a 27 engine should it not have dippers as well as holes through the caps so as to get more oil to the rods? Jim

Pizman · Post by **Pizman** » Sun Oct 10, 2021 6:45 pm

I was looking at Lang’s they sell some ‘X’ grooved ones and the dippers too, is that something I should consider?

Post by **speedytinc** » Sun Oct 10, 2021 7:05 pm

Pizman wrote: ↑
Sun Oct 10, 2021 6:45 pm
I was looking at Lang’s they sell some ‘X’ grooved ones and the dippers too, is that something I should consider?

First thing I would want to know is "why" this happened in a "new" moto before throwing parts @ it.
No break in, wrist pins tight, pistons/rings too tight, no oil going forward, out of round throws. etc??
If mine, I pull it & do a complete re-rebuild. Then you have a lifetime motor.

Post by **Jerry VanOoteghem** » Sun Oct 10, 2021 7:16 pm

speedytinc wrote: ↑
Sun Oct 10, 2021 7:05 pm

Pizman wrote: ↑
Sun Oct 10, 2021 6:45 pm
I was looking at Lang’s they sell some ‘X’ grooved ones and the dippers too, is that something I should consider?
First thing I would want to know is "why" this happened in a "new" moto before throwing parts @ it.
No break in, wrist pins tight, pistons/rings too tight, no oil going forward, out of round throws. etc??
If mine, I pull it & do a complete re-rebuild. Then you have a lifetime motor.

Agreed. When you see something like this, it introduces lots of question marks about everything else connected with the rebuild. This was way too soon for babbitt to come loose.

Norman Kling · Post by **Norman Kling** » Sun Oct 10, 2021 7:22 pm

Another thing. If you decide to replace just one rod, be sure it is the same kind of rod as the others. There were changes in the rods over the years and the later ones had a narrower part at the lower end. If you mix the types of rods, your engine will be quite out of balance. If you use the same kind, it will vibrate less than if they are seriously out of balance. I tried to replace the second rod one time while leaving the piston in the car and had a big problem. If you have the older pistons, the lower ring is below the wrist pin and even with the newer ones with all rings above the wrist pin, if you pull the piston down too far it can get wedged at an angle with the center main and in my case, I had to pull the head off and had a big problem getting it back in, because the ring expanded below the cylinder and the angle of the piston prevented getting a ring compressor on from the bottom, so even though it is more work to pull the head, it is easier to pull the pistons out from the top to remove the rods.
Norm

Wayne Sheldon · Post by **Wayne Sheldon** » Sun Oct 10, 2021 7:48 pm

"Engine was rebuilt". But by whom? And where did the rods come from? From the look of the bearings you show, It appears that the rods may not have been properly prepared before the Babbitt was poured onto them. Breaking away from the edges that way is a common result of improper cleaning of the steel rod.
I have reworked a number of old engines, and gotten a great deal of miles and use out of them. I also, once, put a model T engine together using used rods that all looked very nice and low mileage, mix and match from several unknown sources. A couple of the rods looked to be barely or never used. Only to have one rod bearing come apart that way with less than a hundred miles on it. I soon changed the rod in the car and that one went for many miles and was still going fine when I sold the car several years later.
Careful examination of the failed rod, showed that in spite of looking good, the steel rod had not been properly cleaned and tinned, and the Babbitt quickly separated and broke out in chunks.

If your engine was a mix and match assembly? The rest of it might be okay. If the same person that did your one or two failed rods did all of it? Plan on a complete redo!

Wayne Sheldon · Post by **Wayne Sheldon** » Sun Oct 10, 2021 8:06 pm

As far as pulling rods from the bottom? I have done that, successfully. I also tried it once and got a piston wedged in like Norman K talks about! The difference is a very slight variation in the block's casting. By the time one discovers 'it ain't gonna work'! One may already be in a world of hurt.
For that reason, I do not recommend trying to change rods out the bottom. A little more work, and possibly a LOT less hassle to just pull the head and go out through the top.

Post by **JTT3** » Sun Oct 10, 2021 8:41 pm

I agree completely with Wayne, there is really no telling what rebuilt means if you don’t know who did the build. You will be in a world of hurt if you just replace the rod without examining the rest of the engine. Something like not cleaning the rod correctly before pouring babbitt is not a good indicator. Most folks I know take a build seriously because going back in cost twice as much. Doing it right takes time and knowledge. Others have said to check the crank for roundness and that’s for sure. A good mic and check AT LEAST on 90s. I’d be curious to know what type babbitt was used. The pictures looks odd, hopefully the someone that poured didn’t reuse old babbitt. That’s a mistake. Reused is not the same as fresh/new in the element ratio. Unfortunately if this is an indication of the work it’s going to be like a box of chocolates. You just don’t know what you’ll find inside. Good luck & keep posting. There is a wealth of knowledge on the forum. Most of these guys/gals have forgot more than I know.

Post by **John kuehn** » Sun Oct 10, 2021 9:17 pm

‘Rebuilt’ means different things to different people. One guys’ rebuilt’ is new pistons and rods and maybe a new large timing gear, new bands and that’s about it. You can do that without pulling the engine. If that’s ‘rebuilt’ for this engine maybe there’s more that needs repair than what’s already caused an issue. It’s hard to tell if you don’t have much more information other than he said ‘it’s been rebuilt’.

Post by **TXGOAT2** » Sun Oct 10, 2021 9:35 pm

Sometimes, "rebuilt" means rattle can paint sprayed over old grease.

Post by **JTT3** » Mon Oct 11, 2021 3:23 am

I enlarged the pictures a bit and think that I’m seeing a lot of porosity in the pour. If it is, it looks quite deep. Since you’ve pulled the piston examine the journal and make sure there is a radius on each side and not straight grind. To answer some of your questions, You may have some slight side to side play but really no up and down play you can really feel. It’s a mixed bag in opinions on the X groove rods. Some folks swear by them others like a full coverage on the bearing. I’ve done and have both but prefer the full bearing with a hole for the dippers/scoops. I also drill a small hole at the top to relieve pneumatic pressure but that’s just me. Good luck, john

Post by **Bill Robinson** » Mon Oct 11, 2021 9:43 am

I agree with JTT3. John.
The Babbitt tends to look like it was poured and not fit. Also the open ends appear not to have been rounded to fit the journals which would hinder getting a proper fit. This would create a situation of “fit by feel” rather than “fit by measurement”.

Pizman · Post by **Pizman** » Mon Oct 11, 2021 10:20 am

Thanks John, much appreciate the advice. I’m going to pull the caps off the main to check the Babbitt, are there torque specs for these?
If the mains turn out to be ok I might just replace the rods. I’m not sure these rods are a balanced set anyways the motor did have a bit of vibration, I thought it might be normal as I don’t have another T to compare it to. Seems like I’m the only one in my area with a T these days.

Question, has anybody used the new rods with the replaceable insert bearings that Snyder’s sells? Good or bad?

Post by **JTT3** » Mon Oct 11, 2021 10:45 am

As far as I can tell there were no torque values though in reading occasionally you’ll see adjectives that describe how tight. In my youth I had to learn that getting things as tight as I could usually resulted in use of an easy out or some other method to remove my work. Ha! So on the rods, while it’s important to be as close to the same weight as possible to the point of adding or taking off weight, a dollar to donuts says that most vibration is in the transmission & further back. That being said you still need to mic your throws so you can see how undersized your crank is from standard to get the correctly poured oversized rods. I’m afraid you’re stepping over a dollar to pick up a penny but I’ve been underfunded myself at times when younger so I understand. If you do get rods be sure to buy some time saver to fit the rods to the throw’s. Time saver is self dispersing. So you don’t necessarily have to wipe it off when fitting just add more, though I do just because I’m particular. Good luck I wish you luck and success.

Bill Coyle · Post by **Bill Coyle** » Mon Oct 11, 2021 1:17 pm

JJT3,
On your earlier statement..."I also drill a small hole at the top to relieve pneumatic pressure" can you please give a little explanation on your thoughts for this? I originally thought they drilled a hole in the top of the bearing and chamfered the outside to catch oil running down the rod after it was shut off. But now I'm thinking it might also be used to spray oil up on the cylinders and wrist pin.
Thanks,
Bill Coyle

Pizman · Post by **Pizman** » Mon Oct 11, 2021 8:20 pm

Ok, so I’ve checked all the journals with a micrometer looks like they are all 1.248” +/- .003”. So assuming that means the crank has never been ground and I need standard size rods?
I’m leaning towards replacing all four with new forged Babbitted rods from Snyder’s. I like the idea of built in oil dippers and no cores needed so I could keep my originals just in case. Has anyone else installed these? Looks like it comes with cap bolts, but I probably should order wrist pin bolts thinking.
Im thinking Rod cap number 1 also looks suspect (see photo)

Norman Kling · Post by **Norman Kling** » Mon Oct 11, 2021 9:20 pm

How does your crank check from front to back of the bearing and in other directions around the crank? Should be no more than .002"
If surface of crank is smooth and taper within limits, the new rods should work fine.
Norm

Pizman · Post by **Pizman** » Mon Oct 11, 2021 9:39 pm

They were pretty much the same across the bearing surface, I took a few measurements in each direction to check for roundness and across the surface. The surface looked ok to me (see photo)

Post by **Jerry VanOoteghem** » Mon Oct 11, 2021 9:42 pm

Pizman wrote: ↑
Mon Oct 11, 2021 8:20 pm
Ok, so I’ve checked all the journals with a micrometer looks like they are all 1.248” +/- .003”. So assuming that means the crank has never been ground and I need standard size rods?
I’m leaning towards replacing all four with new forged Babbitted rods from Snyder’s. I like the idea of built in oil dippers and no cores needed so I could keep my originals just in case. Has anyone else installed these? Looks like it comes with cap bolts, but I probably should order wrist pin bolts thinking.
Im thinking Rod cap number 1 also looks suspect (see photo)

How out-of-round are your rod journals?

Post by **JTT3** » Mon Oct 11, 2021 10:04 pm

Bill, if you think about it the rod floats on a micro layer amount of oil around the crank & as you implied some splash and run down may migrate to the bearing. My thought is that a small hole at the top does catch oil and help lubrication however if you have dippers with your caps and the rotating mass is trying to force oil into the bearing, (pneumatic) pressure is at play and with out some relief for this forced fluid through the hole or sweeps how does the oil migrate around the journal. It would be like trying to force more water into a full cup at about 1400 rpm, your not going to see any appreciable water/oil actually being forced in if it has no place to go. Hope that makes sense.

Brent did you measure your crank around at 90 degrees? If so, was it 0.002 or less out?
That cap appears to have no sweeps filed in & a crack or at least it looks that way. On the other picture o the rod, is that 3 holes in the top?
The new rods with built in dippers is a good deal. You can’t straighten and pour rods then bore them for much less. You do need to be sure when you get them that they are concentric, (thanks Dan for the heads up)!
If that measurement is good I’d cautiously move forward and order the rods that best fit your journal size and some time saver for fitting. You may be finding a short term fix with a long term problem. I hope not. Keep us posted.

Pizman · Post by **Pizman** » Mon Oct 11, 2021 11:20 pm

I did measure at 90 degrees, really didn’t see any difference. How do you tell if it is concentric? Here is the product image they provided

Post by **JTT3** » Mon Oct 11, 2021 11:31 pm

You’ll have to use a caliper to make sure the bore is round. Dan Hatch gave me a heads up on that and sure enough one of the 4 was not so set it up on the jig and rebored. Don’t forget to order the wrist pin bolt they do not come with it but you could always use the bolt you have on the current rod.

Luke · Post by **Luke** » Tue Oct 12, 2021 12:12 am

Pizman wrote: ↑
Mon Oct 11, 2021 10:20 am
Thanks John, much appreciate the advice. I’m going to pull the caps off the main to check the Babbitt, are there torque specs for these?

Brent,

Below is a generic torque chart that I believe may have been on this forum previously. This should give you some guidance, I guess you could use 25-30 lbs-ft for the big ends and circa 50-55 for the mains, but others may differ, and I don't want to start a war!

Luke (whose forearm manages a 'click' at the appropriate torque

Pizman · Post by **Pizman** » Tue Oct 12, 2021 9:03 pm

Was about to order then thought nope, I’m going double check the measurements, just didn’t feel right. Measure twice order once as they say. Glad I did, I was reading the micrometer wrong, I added the vernier number to the wrong decimal place, oops.
Here are my results, pretty uniform, but looks like I need to order the .010 undersized Rods?

Pizman · Post by **Pizman** » Tue Oct 12, 2021 9:06 pm

Here are the results

Pizman · Post by **Pizman** » Fri Oct 29, 2021 11:55 pm

Well my parts finally came in. Hopefully I’ll have it back running tomorrow. Couldn’t find another copper head gasket looks like it’s out of stock everywhere I tried. They sent me the silicone one but now after searching the forums I’m sceptical to us it. I might see if I can salvage the existing copper gasket since it really only had a few hours run time although it’s 25yrs old. I bought the copper gasket spray and hoping that will help. I would try and remove pistons from bottom but some people say it can be difficult and get stuck?
New rods look good I like the built in dippers. One of them though I didn’t like the Babbitt as much, the collar is thinner on part of it, hopefully it won’t be an issue?

Pizman · Post by **Pizman** » Sat Oct 30, 2021 12:24 am

I’m still quite new to this and appreciate all the tips I can get.
My plan tomorrow is to:
1. Drain coolant and remove head.
2. Undo each rod bearing one at a time and remove piston.
3. Undo wrist pin bolt and remove wrist pin, how is the wrist pin held in place, circlips?
4.install new rod through wrist pin and install new wrist pin bolt
5. Use ring compressor and install piston into sleeve.
6. Clean and remove oil from crank journal so that I can use the plastiguage. Use a couple strips of plastiguage and install rod cap and tighten to 20ftlb. Remove rod cap and measure clearance to see if I’m close to the recommended 0.0015” clearance.
7. If clearance is good then I will clean the plastiguage residue forms journal and cap and then mix up some yellow timesaver paste using oil, still not sure how thick or consistency the paste should be?
8. Apply the paste to the journal and rod bearing and install rod bearing. Tighten evenly first to 20ftlb then to 35.
9.Do the same thing for the other three rods.
10. Turn over engine with lapping compound. Question for how long or can I just wait until I start the engine with oil in it?
10. Clean head surfaces with isopropyl to remove oil residue, spray gasket with copper spray wait until tacky then install head using bolt pattern and procedure in model t service book.
11. Re install inspection plate, radiator, fill coolant and oil.
12. Start engine. Any recommendations of break-in?

Did I miss anything? Any tips are greatly appreciated!

Dan McEachern · Post by **Dan McEachern** » Sat Oct 30, 2021 1:44 am

Standard Ford rod journal diameter is 1.2480. If your journals are 1.2405, and the rods are bored to the standard Ford undersize of 1.240, you are not going to have any clearance. In early Fords, the oil clearance was in the journal, not the bearing size,( based on nominal size).

Before you install the rods, measure the bores or have someone with the proper equipment measure them for you. As an alternative, contact Snyders and ask them what size journal the rods are bored for.

Pizman · Post by **Pizman** » Sat Oct 30, 2021 8:43 am

I ordered the .010 undersized. I’ll have to measure though.

Post by **Jerry VanOoteghem** » Sat Oct 30, 2021 10:36 am

"7. If clearance is good then I will clean the plastiguage residue forms journal and cap and then mix up some yellow timesaver paste using oil, still not sure how thick or consistency the paste should be?
8. Apply the paste to the journal and rod bearing and install rod bearing. Tighten evenly first to 20ftlb then to 35."

If the clearance is good, (.0015), then leave it alone. However, as Dan suggests and as your numbers seem to indicate, it won't be good. Also, do NOT just bolt up and torque the caps up right out of the box. Again, as Dan suggests, measure first! To not do so, will force an undersized rod onto the crank journal and ruin it. Go slow! (Also, with these new rods & bolts it may be fine, but if it were all stock, 35 ft-lbs would strip the bolts.) Try using the TimeSaver to "lap in" the proper clearance.

"3. Undo wrist pin bolt and remove wrist pin, how is the wrist pin held in place, circlips?
4.install new rod through wrist pin and install new wrist pin bolt"

The wrist pin has a notch in it where the rod clamp bolt passes through, preventing the pin from sliding out. You need to completely remove the clamp bolt in order for the pin to come out. To remove, (or install), the clamp bolt, you need to slide a steel bar through the hole in the wrist pin. Use this bar to hold the piston/rod assembly as you loosen/tighten the clamp bolt. Holding onto the rod to do this will twist the rod and ruin it.

Les Schubert · Post by **Les Schubert** » Sat Oct 30, 2021 10:39 am

There are lots of helpful people in the Calgary club!

Les Schubert · Post by **Les Schubert** » Sat Oct 30, 2021 10:41 am

Your rods can be rebabited in Calgary

Scott_Conger · Post by **Scott_Conger** » Sat Oct 30, 2021 10:45 am

Brent

some of the questions you have recently asked indicate that you do not own a "T-1" manual for the Model T Ford. There are no circlips and the rods must be handled with caution and must not be twisted.

your plan to assemble, apply compound and then turn the engine over will not work. Each rod must be pre-assembled to the crank and checked for fit first. If necessary, lapped. Or, if necessary, have a shim removed (and then maybe lapped). There is more to it than that, but any more info will simply result in a pi$$ing contest between the experts, many of whom have only seen videos of rods being lapped.

Get the Ford manual and:
read carefully about removing/replacing the wrist pin'
read carefully about removing shims and fitting rods
go to: https://ws2coating.com/timesaver-lapping-compounds/ and order the smallest amount of "yellow" compound (100)
go to: https://ws2coating.com/whats-new/faq/ and read up on using Timesaver

Les' suggestion of the Calgary Club is very good. Contact someone knowledgeable soon and get help. This is a job which a person can be talked through and In fact I just did it with a friend on the other side of the continent. It's a long and sometimes frustrating exercise (for both participants) which can be sped up considerably with someone to show you rather than explain to you.

good luck

Norman Kling · Post by **Norman Kling** » Sat Oct 30, 2021 11:26 am

When I install a rod to the piston, like to first be sure the pin will turn easily in the piston. It should be snug, but not binding. Then I put a strong rod, such as a large bolt or screwdriver into the inside of the pin and clamp in a vise. That way when I tighten the bolt, I will not be twisting the rod. All the pressure will be on the strong rod. I install a cotter pin in the head of the bolt in such a way that it will block the bolt from turning.
I always fit the rod bearing to the crankshaft with the piston in place in the block so that I won't accidently cause the rod to be crooked on the crankshaft when it is tight. Then I put on the cap with plastigauge and fit to specifications. After that, I smear some prussion blue and rotate the crankshaft. The blue should be the same all the way around. loose places will be bright blue and tight places will be wiped very thin. When you get the bearing just right, final test would be to remove one thousandth shim from one side of the rod and if it binds with the shim removed, replace it and it turns freely, you are right on.
I loosen the nuts on that rod and do another one in same manor, then loosen the nuts and when I get them all adjusted, I tighten all to about 30 ft lbs and install the cotter pins. After all is tight, it might turn hard with the crank or starter and might need to be pulled to start it the first time. I run it for just a short time, a minute or two and then turn off. That way each rod will have dipped into the oil dippers and the oil will have time to run down the rods and some will work itself into the bearings and rings etc. Then start it up again and fast idle till it warms up. Re-torque the head bolts. Torque hot for iron head or cold for aluminum head. warm it up again and take for a short drive. Torque again. Each time you drive it you can go a bit farther until you find the head stays torqued. Then you are ready to break in the car at slow speeds occasionly running up to about 35 or 40 and then back down to about 25. After doing this for few times you can gradually get to going as you usually would drive. There should be no more knock, if everything was fitted correctly.
Norm

Post by **speedytinc** » Sat Oct 30, 2021 12:45 pm

Nice looking rods. To further complicate things. I never "trust" a rebabbit or old rod is not bent. Everyone gets checked. They are very fragile creatures. The last customer provided short block had 2 of its new rods slightly bent.
As far as the "print- o seal" type gasket. Love em. There are of the felpro design, if not felpro made. I used exclusively during my work as an engine builder 40 years past.
I used the copper gaskets exclusively on T's when good ones were available & reasonable. I clean & coat with silver paint. 3 coats. Seal well, removable in tact for that option, especially if on the road. I, otherwise use new every time in the shop. Not worth the risk of added labor time for the cost of a gasket.(when good ones were available). I would try a reuse in your case.

Pizman · Post by **Pizman** » Sat Oct 30, 2021 12:57 pm

Thanks everyone, this is exactly why I posted, I don’t want to just create more of a problem. I do have the service manual so will just start reading before I do anything. Oh what I wouldn’t do to have a model T mechanic in my garage today ha ha.
Thanks Norman, great advice on the break-in.

Scott_Conger · Post by **Scott_Conger** » Sat Oct 30, 2021 2:27 pm

If you are using Yellow timesaver, because of a "too snug" initial fit, the timesaver will quit lapping when the gap is perfect. Rather than remove 1 shim to retest for "too tight" after lapping, if you really must check, a small strip of newsprint ADDED to the actual bearing cap and tightened, will seize up the engine or make it very very tight with a hand crank...and if so, your gap was already correct (now you don't have to add any loose shims back in).

Pizman · Post by **Pizman** » Sat Oct 30, 2021 4:43 pm

Well, I think I might be looking at a rebuild. Removed pistons, and both 1&2 don’t look too good, 1 is the worst, has quite a bit of scoring. This thing has hardly any run time since it was rebuilt 25yrs ago. I’m sure some scoring is normal but this looks excessive to me?

Pizman · Post by **Pizman** » Sat Oct 30, 2021 4:46 pm

Here is piston 1.

Post by **TXGOAT2** » Sat Oct 30, 2021 4:56 pm

That's highy excessive. The piston should look like new. Even a well-worn piston ought not have significant scoring. Several things could cause that on a near-new engine, among them: Problem with the oil pipe, improper piston to cylinder fit, insufficient oil in pan, very thick oil in a fresh rebuild, overheating from any cause, and more. Someone may have fit aluminum pistons to clearances specified for stock, cast iron pistons.

Pizman · Post by **Pizman** » Sat Oct 30, 2021 5:16 pm

Scott_Conger wrote: ↑
Sat Oct 30, 2021 2:27 pm
If you are using Yellow timesaver, because of a "too snug" initial fit, the timesaver

So if they are all too snug to start could I just slowly tighten up the bolts starting at even 5ftlb so that I can still hand crank it and start lapping until it becomes easier to crank, then tighten to 10ftlb and start lapping again... until I get to 20ftlb? Would I remove each time and add more timesaver?

Scott_Conger · Post by **Scott_Conger** » Sat Oct 30, 2021 6:03 pm

In light of what you are finding, let me suggest that you get some advice and knowledge from here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_5zsqKCsecg

this is one of many great videos, and this specifically touches on what you're going through

to your question of lapping, rather than get into specifics, I will also send you to this video where rods bored to match the crank are lapped...the exact operation you WERE going to do before finding the piston(s) as they are...start with handling new rods: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QQt5GAdW7Xc and then lapping: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p5MCfkMh3Wc

from the lapping video especially, you will learn more than anyone trying to explain...

rereading your first post, it is difficult to know which came first...chicken/egg. You mentioned towing home...if that was in neutral, behind another modern car, then much of the damage could well be due to that and troubleshooting might move in another direction.

this is most important: exactly HOW was the car towed home? Trailer? On it's wheels? In gear with no plugs or in neutral?

Post by **speedytinc** » Sat Oct 30, 2021 6:39 pm

Classis not enough piston clearance. Must have seized or got close to it. Explains some of the Babbitt problems. Plus no oil getting in. Professional rebuild??? For this reason I give .0045- 005" piston clearance. Hard to tell if cylinder walls are scored or deposited on. Hopefully the latter. Maybe you can clean & hone in place. Clean up & reduce piston dia enough? Thats something I would decide with it all in front of me with measuring tools. A little remaining scoring isnt the end of the world. Like Throwing a bucket of water thru a key hole.
Best fix, of course, tear it all apart , have it precision honed to fit new pistons. Necessary? Most likely not. Sorry for your problem. One dosent know what's been done in a "rebuilt" motor.
P.S. Was the internal oiler left out?
P.S.S. The more I think on it, what else did this "professional" get wrong?
Not being alarmist, but, at this point I do tear it all down & do a complete re-rebuild To catch all the other mistakes you have not found yet.
Sorry, but, best course of action IMO.

Before I submitted this post, I saw Scotts, that might modify my opinion a bit depending on towing it home on the ground. This may not have been a REALLY bad rebuild, just not a really good one? Or the majority of your problem self induced?

Pizman · Post by **Pizman** » Sat Oct 30, 2021 8:03 pm

Yes I did tow it home on its own wheels, but it was in neutral so the engine would not be turning right? Wish I had known about the risks including to the fourth main. We towed it about 2 miles and at a maximum speed of under 10mph more likely 5mph as I was worried about braking in time to not hit the car in front of me. Also looks like the oil return tube is there (see photo) also has the external to the magneto post

Post by **speedytinc** » Sat Oct 30, 2021 9:04 pm

In this case, the only damage possible would have been to a dry transmission output shaft bushing & possibly the 4th main if dry. My opinion/observation on the "rebuild" holds. With the 2 oil lines, there should have been enough oil to lube the motor up front.(not the issue.)

Pizman · Post by **Pizman** » Sat Oct 30, 2021 9:52 pm

Scott, thanks very much, those videos are great! Answered a lot of questions. I tried searching YouTube initially and never came across them.

I did notice that the wrist pin is tighter in number one than the others which might account for the scoring. Would timesaver work to relieve it a bit?

Also just measuring the rods they are pretty snug still have to measure the rest but the first one I did was 1.2370” I would need to take off 0.0045” with timesaver to end up with 0.0015” clearance. Can it do that much?

The other three are 1.2380” so I would be removing approximately 0.0035”.

Scott_Conger · Post by **Scott_Conger** » Sat Oct 30, 2021 10:40 pm

Glad the videos helped. Mike is well respected for his work and we are blessed that he and the man who did the videos took the time to document some really good processes for the layman and mechanic. They really don't get the press that they're due for their effort.

Wristpins and timesaver - No.

Timesaver will leave too loose of a fit (and you'll likely bind the crap out of it in the process and maybe wreck things). This is a job for a Sunnen hone unless you have a very well equipped shop with split laps the correct size. It is a rare home shop thus equipped, so that's why I say "Sunnen".

Once fitted and oiled with a very light oil such as Mobile Velocite #10 spindle lubricant, or 3-in-1 oil, the wrist pin will just start to slide under it's own weight when the piston is set with pin vertical. If you have to push with ANY measurable pressure with a finger, you're approaching too tight and if the wrist pin simply drops out, you're too loose. If push comes to shove, a little loose is better than a little tight, but you should have "zero" deductible shake or looseness of the pin to the piston.

Important! You must have oil holes in the piston bosses for oil to lube the bearing surfaces.

I've done one rod that was .004 under...for a guy going cross country and broken down in Yellowstone (actually several over the past 6 years but only 1 was a rod)...it's really a lot of work what with the constant removal/cleaning/etc...I also sped things up by scraping and letting the timesaver finish the fit...lots of work and you risk goofing up geometry if you have a heavy hand. I've also fitted mains that had to be lowered .005 to match a lowered center bearing...did it by hand scraping and timesaver. Wouldn't do it twice. When I'm fitting rods to a crank like you are, I call a shop which makes the rods for suppliers...give them the crank size measurements to .xxxx (4 places) and let them bore to the correct size. I lap and maybe remove 1 shim then and that's it. I don't think I'd want to use #100 timesaver to take .004 out of 4 rods...it was enough work on the crank and that took a little over a day (my own job so time was not an object plus it was a fiercely cold winter and I had nothing better to do).

Post by **Jerry VanOoteghem** » Sun Oct 31, 2021 1:29 pm

As Scott explains, lapping .004" is a lot. The hand scraping he refers to is an art in itself and not a fast process either, just faster than lapping. There must be some great videos of the scraping process as well, (apologies if Scott already included one and I haven't looked).

Post by **speedytinc** » Sun Oct 31, 2021 2:50 pm

Time savering .004 is a missery I would not do on a shop motor. My first go to would be some careful boring on a mill. Or find someone capable with a mill. I am not skilled enough to scrape em in. If I had an adjustable reamer that large would be #2. (not sure I have one that large in the set.) Before ordering rods, one should know via measuring ALL journals & getting them the proper size from a rebabbiter directly if not standard oversize. Those guys are still out there. Unfortunately you wouldnt have those pretty new mfg rods.
In my area there is a super T crank grinder that will grind to clean, not the next .010 standard. I prefer more meat & issue the rod Babbitt as needed. When I stock rebabbit rods, I buy the +.030's & bore to fit, timesaver to finish. I am going to timesaver everything anyway. Even a complete new Babbitt job.

Pizman · Post by **Pizman** » Tue Nov 02, 2021 11:01 pm

The video shows them lapping the rod from the bottom as opposed to having the piston in place. I like the idea of having it in place just to ensure I don’t lap the rod crooked. Is there any concern if I just put the rod and piston together. And lap them in by hand cranking the engine, even though there is no oil? Or is there risk to the mains doing that? Or would I just be better off to lap from bottom without the piston?

Norman Kling · Post by **Norman Kling** » Wed Nov 03, 2021 1:08 am

At the speed you are turning by hand, should be no damage to the mains. If you are worried about it take a pump oil can and squirt some oil on the mains.
Norm

Dan McEachern · Post by **Dan McEachern** » Wed Nov 03, 2021 1:29 am

It appears that the scored piston in the picture is installed on a bent connecting rod. Notice the scoring on not only the thrust face but also on the front/rear side of the piston? And only on one side? This is an indication of a misaligned rod. Might be best at this point to pull that thing completely apart and start over with assistance from a few knowledgeable folks. You will be much happier and $$ ahead in the long run.

Post by **Jerry VanOoteghem** » Wed Nov 03, 2021 12:11 pm

Dan McEachern wrote: ↑
Wed Nov 03, 2021 1:29 am
It appears that the scored piston in the picture is installed on a bent connecting rod. Notice the scoring on not only the thrust face but also on the front/rear side of the piston? And only on one side? This is an indication of a misaligned rod. Might be best at this point to pull that thing completely apart and start over with assistance from a few knowledgeable folks. You will be much happier and $$ ahead in the long run.

Excellent advice!

Post by **TXGOAT2** » Wed Nov 03, 2021 12:18 pm

That engine needs to be taken out and refurbished. Pistons and rings are cheap. I'd replace them all. I'd want to clean everything of metal debris and check every running fit, every thread in the block, and check every rod for alignment and check the crank and camshaft for straightness and general condition. If the engine has cast iron head valves, I'd replace them all. I'd replace the valve springs and rlated hardware. I'd also want to use modern seals where appropriate and an improved 4th main. I'd replace any non-metallic cam gear with a good quality metal timing gear set.

Pizman · Post by **Pizman** » Sat Nov 06, 2021 1:17 pm

I just realized something else, watching Mikes videos he says that the split in boss goes away from cam and the wrist pin bolt should be on the cam side. Well all my rods were installed with the wrist pin bolt on same side as the split opposite side of cam. Does this mean they were installed backwards and could that have been the cause for some of the scoring and rough running?
Also I don’t have any holes fore the wrist pin lubing like I seen in other posts, should I be drilling holes, and what size 3/16” is it just through the bottom or all the way through?

Scott_Conger · Post by **Scott_Conger** » Sat Nov 06, 2021 3:51 pm

No, that orientation would not have caused all the havoc you have encountered in such a short time. That said, it is in fact the wrong way and would possibly have led to shorter life-span of the engine.

So many things being found wrong...too bad. The folks telling you to strip this thing down and start over with whatever is still salvageable is very wise advice.

You're not done finding errors, and the transmission is waiting to divulge problems, too. That is a near certainty.

My axiom is: If I do not know/trust the engine builder, any T I buy must be priced to offset the exact risk that you are running headlong into.

Pizman · Post by **Pizman** » Sun Nov 07, 2021 8:43 am

I agree this engine should be stripped down and rebuilt but looking at the pistons they are already 60 oversized and with the scoring in cylinder 1 and given everything that I have discovered I'm thinking I would be better off to start with another complete long block. My father had one sitting outside that I didn’t know about so I picked it up but from what I read about the serial numbers it looks to be a 1916. So I’ll be on the lookout for a 26-27.

Scott_Conger · Post by **Scott_Conger** » Sun Nov 07, 2021 9:12 am

the smeared aluminum in the bores will almost certainly hone out OK. At the very least I'd have a shop clean them up first. From your description, you didn't drive far enough or long enough to gouge anything.

Pizman · Post by **Pizman** » Mon Mar 07, 2022 2:31 pm

Well it’s been a busy fall and winter. My son decided to buy a 1989 Mustang GT convertible so have been busy restoring that, finally got that out of the way and back onto the T.
I took the advice and ordered new pistons and rings. I also honed the engine block. Pretty much all the scoring was removed, cylinder no 1 still had a bit but was lower down on the cylinder and didn’t want to hone much further with risk of having too much piston clearance. After cleaning the block I assembled and installed the new pistons, rings and rods. I wanted to lap the new rods in place with the pistons in to make sure they lap in straight. Was settled in for a long day or days of laping with the time saver, but was pleasantly surprised how quickly the timesaver worked within a few hours had it done. Measured each rod with plastiguage and had consistently 0.0015 clearance Amazing stuff! Cleaned any residual timesaver lubed and assembled the rods. Installed the oil pan inspection cover and continued to reassemble the engine head. While I had the head off I took a look at the cooling ports and noticed two of the small holes on each end of the block were completely plugged with rust sediment, maybe this contributed to the previous engine failure not sure but I cleaned all the ports and rinsed and blew everything out and quite a bit came out of the head. I ordered a new copper gasket back in October but still have not seen it so I decided to try to reuse my old one since it was only removed once. I applied 3 coats of copper spray and installed once tacky. Filled up the oil and coolant and went to start it up. Took a fair bit to get it started but finally it rose from the dead and is up and running again. Not sure if I can post video but I’ll try. I only ran it for the 1 minute then let the oil sit for a while, checked the torque on the head and then fired it up again for a short time to get it up to temp. Runs much cooler now. But reusing that gasket probably wasn’t the best idea as I have a bit of steam at temp while running coming from the back passenger corner of the block. I need to try and find another gasket I’m thinking. This forum has been great, I’m very thankful for all the advice, this process has really renewed my love for my T. Now I can finally get back to finishing the upholstery and have the convertible top installed this spring.

Post by **mbowen** » Mon Mar 07, 2022 2:46 pm

Pizman wrote: ↑
Mon Mar 07, 2022 2:31 pm
…. I ordered a new copper gasket back in October but still have not seen it so I decided to try to reuse my old one since it was only removed once. I applied 3 coats of copper spray and installed once tacky. Filled up the oil and coolant and went to start it up. Took a fair bit to get it started but finally it rose from the dead and is up and running again. Not sure if I can post video but I’ll try. I only ran it for the 1 minute then let the oil sit for a while, checked the torque on the head and then fired it up again for a short time to get it up to temp. Runs much cooler now. But reusing that gasket probably wasn’t the best idea as I have a bit of steam at temp while running coming from the back passenger corner of the block. I need to try and find another gasket I’m thinking. This forum has been great, I’m very thankful for all the advice, this process has really renewed my love for my T. Now I can finally get back to finishing the upholstery and have the convertible top installed this spring.

I tried to find I tried to find a copper head gasket last fall also, but to no avail. I went with a silicone gasket and installed it according to the instructions that came with it (including re-torquing). Only about 50-75 miles on it so far, but far so good.

Post by **Jerry VanOoteghem** » Tue Mar 08, 2022 12:20 pm

Pizman wrote: ↑
Mon Mar 07, 2022 2:31 pm
Well it’s been a busy fall and winter. My son decided to buy a 1989 Mustang GT convertible so have been busy restoring that, finally got that out of the way and back onto the T.
I took the advice and ordered new pistons and rings. I also honed the engine block. Pretty much all the scoring was removed, cylinder no 1 still had a bit but was lower down on the cylinder and didn’t want to hone much further with risk of having too much piston clearance. After cleaning the block I assembled and installed the new pistons, rings and rods. I wanted to lap the new rods in place with the pistons in to make sure they lap in straight. Was settled in for a long day or days of laping with the time saver, but was pleasantly surprised how quickly the timesaver worked within a few hours had it done. Measured each rod with plastiguage and had consistently 0.0015 clearance Amazing stuff! Cleaned any residual timesaver lubed and assembled the rods. Installed the oil pan inspection cover and continued to reassemble the engine head. While I had the head off I took a look at the cooling ports and noticed two of the small holes on each end of the block were completely plugged with rust sediment, maybe this contributed to the previous engine failure not sure but I cleaned all the ports and rinsed and blew everything out and quite a bit came out of the head. I ordered a new copper gasket back in October but still have not seen it so I decided to try to reuse my old one since it was only removed once. I applied 3 coats of copper spray and installed once tacky. Filled up the oil and coolant and went to start it up. Took a fair bit to get it started but finally it rose from the dead and is up and running again. Not sure if I can post video but I’ll try. I only ran it for the 1 minute then let the oil sit for a while, checked the torque on the head and then fired it up again for a short time to get it up to temp. Runs much cooler now. But reusing that gasket probably wasn’t the best idea as I have a bit of steam at temp while running coming from the back passenger corner of the block. I need to try and find another gasket I’m thinking. This forum has been great, I’m very thankful for all the advice, this process has really renewed my love for my T. Now I can finally get back to finishing the upholstery and have the convertible top installed this spring.

Until you're able to get a better head gasket, drain your coolant. No need to have a coolant leak into your engine and ruin all your hard work!

Pizman · Post by **Pizman** » Wed Mar 09, 2022 9:03 pm

Yep, think I’ll be replacing the head gasket maybe this weekend with a silicone one I ordered.
In the meantime here is a couple videos of it running.
https://youtu.be/lEUYWdHT8cM

This one is my son and I trying to cold start it:
https://youtu.be/n1fKxUVFhOI

Think I need a new battery, I barely get any cranking time out of it before it’s dead. The battery is 7 years old so I guess maybe it’s time?

Post by **TXGOAT2** » Wed Mar 09, 2022 9:08 pm

Your 7 year old battery is probably about done for.

Pizman · Post by **Pizman** » Sat Mar 26, 2022 11:03 am

The saga continues...
I replaced the head gasket with a new silicone one, can’t find a dam copper one, and don’t have any visible leaks from the exterior but feel like it might be leaking inside cylinder number 3. After shutting off the engine after running 15-20min I can hear a bit of a hissing noise. I haven’t noticed the coolant level drop and the oil is so dark even after I just changed it so it’s hard to tell. It’s funny because when I pulled the head off the number 3 chamber looked wet compared to the other ones. I used a bore scope to try to have a look but it was difficult to tell, I’m just wondering is it possible to have a leak in the water jacket of the head causing this as opposed to the head gasket? Where are the water passages in the head, do the go over top of the combustion chamber or just around the sides?
Also, finally was able to take it for a short 10min drive instead of just idling in the garage and when I got back it felt like it was running a bit rougher and the manifold was a bit red near number 3 and 2.

Norman Kling · Post by **Norman Kling** » Sat Mar 26, 2022 11:57 am

While you have the head off, check the surface of the block and the head. One time I had a very small leak in that very corner. That little hole goes through both the head and the block and the gasket. It helps to keep the coolant flowing in the corner of the block so that steam does not build up in that area with no where to go. The leak was in the place behind the back of the manifold and I filled the radiator Friday afternoon and loaded onto my trailer. Drove from San Diego to Hoover Dam at Arizona Nevada border all day Saturday and took the T off the trailer. Then Sunday we left on a tour. Before we left I didn't check the coolant, because it was full when I had put it on the trailer. About 50 miles out in the desert, the car started steaming and I had to let it cool down. Fortunately, we had stopped at an area where there was water and it cooled for about an hour. I found the coolant low so filled it up. Anyway, the rest of that tour I filled everytime we went by a gas station. Upon arriving home, I pulled the head and had it re-surfaced and replaced the gasket. No more problems since then. Anyway, a leak there is unexpected. I had checked all the usual places such as the radiator hoses and freeze plugs. But noticed when I was in the gas station some water toward the area at the back of the engine and thought it had come from another car which had been there before me. So if you have a leak, and can't find it, be sure to check that area.
Norm