Question About Replacement Starter Switches

Post by **BLB27** » Tue Mar 29, 2022 7:01 pm

The suppliers have two different switches. One is priced at about $33 and the other at about $17. They are of both. The cheaper one may be available before the other one.

Has anyone had experience with these two?

MichaelPawelek · Post by **MichaelPawelek** » Tue Mar 29, 2022 7:16 pm

As to by pass the electrical arcing that can wear out the contacts in a original floor switch some hide a modern solenoid in the circuit where the floor switch energizes the solenoid and the solenoid takes the brunt of the power going to the starter. I am electrically challenged so my explanation is probably incomplete/simplistic. Someone better versed may chime in……:)

Post by **TRDxB2** » Tue Mar 29, 2022 7:32 pm

Yes I have. I've prepared an unfavorable response. Haveing said that this was about 18months ago and designs change, inventory doesn't always change with it. Personally I prefer a starter button and starter solenoid - its safer than stepping on a fire starter. My second choice would be an original starter switch. They are beefy solid constructed switches. The ones with tabs don't favor any maintenance (tabs brake off), ones that allow maintenance by removing screws are preferred and reliable.

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This is effectively what you would buy.

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I have no experience with the one with the round base.
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Here is the problem that I experienced. The switch being mounted on the for is foot actuated. If is is depressed vertically downward 100% of the time, likely no problem. The switch MUST be pushed downward and evenly so its contacts can bridge the posts inside the switch. However, that is not always the case and when a forward or side to side force is applied the plunger tabs will bend and eventually only one contact will be made unless you readjust your foot position. The second issue is that the compartment that encloses the contacts has no drain.

Post by **speedytinc** » Tue Mar 29, 2022 7:52 pm

Your original is not rebuild-able? (!st choice) You dont have access to another rebuild-able unit?(2nd choice) Go with Mikes idea of a solenoid.(3rd choice) Buy a dozen ropop units & carry them around with the tools to change them out.(not a choice)

Post by **BLB27** » Tue Mar 29, 2022 10:04 pm

Frank and others: Tell me more about "safety" concerns related to starter switches.

Post by **TXGOAT2** » Tue Mar 29, 2022 10:31 pm

A starter switch that sticks or jams can wreck your starter and your battery. A starter switch that shorts to ground can destroy your battery and possibley set your car on fire. A switch that shorts to ground may "weld" itself in the closed position making it impossible to remedy the situation in time to prevent serious problems. In addition, a starter switch that makes erratic contact can lead to starter drive and ring gear damage. Besides the above, a poorly functioning starter switch may leave you out on the road with an inoperable starter.

Scott_Conger · Post by **Scott_Conger** » Tue Mar 29, 2022 10:36 pm

Well, now I'm for sure going to have to sell my T and buy a Tesla. Who wants to worry about all the ways a starter switch can malfunction?

Post by **TXGOAT2** » Tue Mar 29, 2022 10:47 pm

I wonder how much current a fully-charged Tesla battery pack could deliver into a dead short...?

Allan · Post by **Allan** » Tue Mar 29, 2022 10:59 pm

There is no substitute that I know of for an original switch. Unless the copper plated contacts on the plunger are compromised, they are quite rebuildable and work a treat.

Allan from down under.

Tim Rogers · Post by **Tim Rogers** » Wed Mar 30, 2022 8:03 am

The original Ford designed starter switch works flawlessly and the fact that millions were produced proves it. No need to be scared to use it.

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Post by **John kuehn** » Wed Mar 30, 2022 9:21 am

Ford designed his starter switch with dependability built into it. He sure didn’t overthink it.
Simplicity always works the best.

Post by **TXGOAT2** » Wed Mar 30, 2022 10:05 am

Original starter switches are around 100 years old, and many have been abused in every way possible. They carry a lot of current When in use and they need to be in good working order for safe, reliable, and satisfactory operation. The consensus seems to be that available new switches are unsatisfactory.

Post by **TXGOAT2** » Wed Mar 30, 2022 10:06 am

Being fearful is a waste of time. Being prudent is sensible.

Post by **RajoRacer** » Wed Mar 30, 2022 11:59 am

There are two available repro switches - one imported (not great quality) the other is a USA made tractor replacement switch. I've used those as long as they've been on the market and have had no problems nor complaints.

Post by **TXGOAT2** » Wed Mar 30, 2022 1:26 pm

My choice would be a good original switch operating a Ford-type solenoid. That would preserve the original switch and protect the starter drive and ring gear. A 30 Amp fuse could be used between the battery and the original starter switch to prevent problems if the switch shorted to ground. Using a solenoid would also provide some protection against damage from a high current short to ground at the starter terminal or inside the starter or along the cable from the solenoid to the starter.

Post by **BLB27** » Wed Mar 30, 2022 7:14 pm

Pat, Explain the concept of having a solenoid working with the floor switch.

Post by **jab35** » Thu Mar 31, 2022 9:43 am

The ford switch turns on the solenoid and the solenoid contacts supply current to the starter. jb

Post by **TXGOAT2** » Thu Mar 31, 2022 11:31 am

Using a later, Ford-type solenoid to operate the starter, with the solenoid controlled by the original starter switch, reduces the current load on the original switch from over 200 amps to one amp or less. It also gives a quick, positive contact for the starter current, which protects the starter drive and flywheel ring gear from damage and needless cycling that can occur with a worn starter switch or failure to step down quickly and firmly on the original starter switch every ntime it's used. The later type solenoid has the contacts well-protected from dirt and moisture, and they are very reliable. They are designed to carry current greater than that typically required to operate Model T starter. They are also available in either 6 or 12 volt versions. You can also use a keyed switch or a button to operate the stater solenoid in place of the original or repro starter switch. You could also use the solenoid in paralell with the original switch and activated by the original switch, which would assure a good contact for the current, but would retain most of the issues that can occur with the original type switch. Any of these options could be easily diagrammed by someone who can post pictures.

Post by **TRDxB2** » Thu Mar 31, 2022 12:36 pm

Pat I held off posting this but let me know if any corrections are needed
The diagram shows several different option
- Red is conventional using a floor mounted switch (original or repro) with the addition of a 30amp fuse
- Orange is using a solenoid with several options (floor or dash) to activate it - includes a 30amp fuse
-- yellow is a floor mounted switch (original or repro)
-- blue is a dash mounted switch (button or keyed switch)

Post by **TXGOAT2** » Thu Mar 31, 2022 4:08 pm

Correction: ***** The 30 A fuse would go in the lead from the battery to the battery side of the original switch. The starter side of the original switch is connected to the "start" terminal of the solenoid, if using the original switch to activate the solenoid. If you wanted to run the original switch and the solenoid in paralell, (not needed) the "start" wire with fuse would still connect to the starter side of the original *switch* and both the solenoid and the original switch would work together as one when the original switch was activated. If using a starter button or key switch, they would connect from the battery to the start terminal, and any other connections to the start wire would be eliminated. The simplest and best would be to simply use the original switch to activate the solenoid via the "start" terminal. I think you could connect the ignition resistor bypass terminal to the "Bat" side of the stock ignition switch to give a little boost to the system when cranking with the starter, but beware of anything that could apply battery voltage to the magneto. //Connections to the large solenoid terminals would be full size battery cable with quality HD terminals and would need to be kept as short as practical.

Post by **DHort** » Thu Mar 31, 2022 4:38 pm

The above diagram uses two starter switches. Would I be correct in assuming the red line is the original setup for display only and it needs to be changed to the orange yellow and blue display?

Post by **TXGOAT2** » Thu Mar 31, 2022 4:43 pm

Red circuit alone (Option A) is the original configuration. The orange/yellow circuit (Option B) uses the original starter switch to activate the solenoid. Original appearance is retained and function, reliability, and safety are enhanced. (**Move the 30-A fuse to the yellow wire**) {The orange leads = battery cable gauge. Yellow wires can be primary wire.} The blue circuit, option (C), uses a keyed switch with "start" position or a pushbutton switch to activate the solenoid. The original starter switch is not used. The blue wire can be primary wire and a fuse is suggested.

Post by **TXGOAT2** » Thu Mar 31, 2022 5:08 pm

Note: Ford-style starter solenoids are available in "internal ground" and "external ground" configurations. The internal ground configuration is activated when the "start" terminal is connected to battery voltage. The external ground configuration is activated when the "start' terminal is grounded. The external ground units are ideal for a stater button, since they require only a single wire to the button. I believe the INTERNAL GROUND configuration is what would be needed to use the original starter switch to activate the solenoid, and it would also be suited for a keyed switch arrangement.

Post by **TRDxB2** » Thu Mar 31, 2022 6:55 pm

I updated the diagram to better explain the possible, options one has. only one switch is used at a time

https://mtfca.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php? ... 04#p215904

Post by **TXGOAT2** » Thu Mar 31, 2022 8:46 pm

The fuse shown in the diagram needs to be used in the yellow wire, not the orange one. The orange wire carries full starter current when the solenoid is activated. If using a button or key switch, it would go between the battery and the key switch or button. (Blue wire)

Post by **TRDxB2** » Fri Apr 01, 2022 12:28 am

TXGOAT2 wrote: ↑
Thu Mar 31, 2022 8:46 pm
The fuse shown in the diagram needs to be used in the yellow wire, not the orange one. The orange wire carries full starter current when the solenoid is activated. If using a button or key switch, it would go between the battery and the key switch or button. (Blue wire)

Thanks, I've corrected the placements

Post by **TXGOAT2** » Fri Apr 01, 2022 9:23 am

In the red (stock) circuit, any fuse used would need to carry over 200 amps, or full starter current. These circuits are normally not fused.
A fuse added to the stock arrangement not a bad idea, if a suitable fuse and hardware can be found. High amp fuses can get expensive.

Post by **TRDxB2** » Fri Apr 01, 2022 11:14 am

TXGOAT2 wrote: ↑
Fri Apr 01, 2022 9:23 am
In the red (stock) circuit, any fuse used would need to carry over 200 amps, or full starter current. These circuits are normally not fused.
A fuse added to the stock arrangement not a bad idea, if a suitable fuse and hardware can be found. High amp fuses can get expensive.

Been looking to see what's the cost would be. Then the questions about wire size come into question especially since some cars have original 6 volt cable (1/0), those who converted to 12 volt may have replaced the cable with #2 or left the (1/0). Can we assume that its twisted wire as well. Looks like a MIDI(AMI) fuse may work as well as a MEGA*AMG) Fuse + holder cost doesn't look to bad, depending on the source, Summit racing has a Bussmann AMG holder for $8 while other suppliers have the same for as high as $37 (aAllied Electronics)
Chart from https://www.bluesea.com/support/article ... stallation

John Codman · Post by **John Codman** » Fri Apr 01, 2022 11:31 am

My '27 has a switch that looks like the $15 switch in the second photo. It also appears to have been installed many years ago or is possibly original. It has the round "skirt". Interestingly, I checked my Lang's and Snyder's catalog and neither listed a starter switch (or I couldn't find one).

Post by **John kuehn** » Fri Apr 01, 2022 12:36 pm

https://www.modeltford.com/item/5014.aspx

Lang’s has them in their catalog

Post by **RajoRacer** » Fri Apr 01, 2022 2:17 pm

That's the one you DON'T want !

Post by **John kuehn** » Fri Apr 01, 2022 7:32 pm

Lang’s better quality switch is #5014RE. https://www.modeltford.com/item/5014RE.aspx

Post by **TRDxB2** » Fri Apr 01, 2022 8:10 pm

It wouldn't be difficult to have one that is "Better" Quality than another one.
I had purchased a "better quality" about 2 years ago and the design issues I had with it may have been corrected. But so here is an attempt to explain one of the issues with the earlier switches. This does not mean that the current ones don't have the same issue.
The design issue is the tube containing the plunger is help in place on the bottom by 4 bent tabs. One the plunger us depressed straight down gently about 1/4" there is no issue. HOWEVER, that motion isn't always possible due to ones anatomy, since the plunger is spring loaded some regulated force is needed to depress is just enough, also frustration to get the car started might cause someone to pus harder. So a light forward force is exerted eventually bend the tabs and/or bottom plate causing only the forward pad to contact on the starter side. If one rocks their foot back a bit to cause both of the internal pads to make contact with the bolts to complete the circuit the starter will engage. Bending metal back and forth and something will brake off (small tabs inside, short?). Now this issue could be corrected if the tube was secured more firmly to the base plate. Note the difference between the old and new repro's

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The other issues with the one shown here is that units are not sealed form water etc. Inside the bottom of the switch is a rubber insulating tub with no drain holes. If water was to get inside it - 100% short. The round design doesn't appear to have this issue.

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So if you do purchase one of these I suggest you take it upon yourself to remedy the issues .

Post by **tdump** » Fri Apr 01, 2022 8:38 pm

I went the Ford Truck solenoid route myself on both the pickup and the incomplete speedster project.Primary reason was to help the good original switches to survive the years i will be needing them without have to work on them or replace them alot.
1 option a solenoid provides that some may not think about is you can install a small,low cost hidden "safety" switch inline with the solenoid to prevent a kid from bumping the starter and making the car move and hurt someone.Sure you can put a big heavy disconnect between the battery and starter but with the solenoid it can be a simple cheap toggle switch under the seat or something.

Post by **jwipprecht** » Mon Oct 17, 2022 9:34 pm

: pitted bottom contacts

: top contacts

I am working on getting my 1919 Tudor running after over 70 years of barn storage. This forum has been a tremendous help. After reading all the posts on this subject (thank you all contributors) I am going to use my original foot operated starter button to activate a new solenoid relay. The starter button did not work so I took it apart and cleaned the contacts but the pitting reduced the surface area by 50% and I didn't dare file them down anymore. Also, the upper contacts are narrow so even less contact. I shall also put a 30 amp fuse in-between the battery + terminal and the foot operated starter button. The previous post also suggested that a "cheap toggle switch under the seat or something" could also go between the battery and the old foot operated starter button to prevent unintended starts if someone accidentally steps on the starter button. I like the idea. I am wondering if one can accomplish the same result by not connecting the foot operated starter button to the battery but instead to the coil terminal on the coil box. The coil box is connected to the battery by operation of the existing switch on the dash. So, by moving the dash switch to BAT the foot operated starter button also becomes connected to the battery. When the dash switch is in the OFF position, pressing the foot operated starter button would have no effect. The thing I don't know is what happens if the dash switch is to MAG. It seems to me that the magneto would then be connected to the foot operated starter button but nothing would happen unless someone accidentally stepped on it in which case current from the magneto would be sent through the 30 amp fuse to the starter solenoid ... and then what? My question: Is my idea to power the foot operated starter button and consequently the solenoid relay by connecting it to the MAG terminal (on the coil box terminal on the outside of the "firewall" a good idea or a bad one?

Scott_Conger · Post by **Scott_Conger** » Mon Oct 17, 2022 10:10 pm

First: Welcome to the hobby
Second: Go slow
Third: doing an internet search starting with "MTFCA your subject" will bring up multiple posts for any possible subject including wiring diagrams which I will mention below...

The MAG only produces power when the engine is rotating, thus providing (in your case) power to the plugs to keep the engine running...nothing else. Thus, to your question at the end of your post, it is neither good or bad...it is simply wrong insofar as how things work.

To be the most helpful without being too blunt, you can try to follow 20 guys replying to you with opinions and ideas, some of which will be good and some which will likely be dubious, or you can get a copy of the wiring in your car and trace things out...you will soon see why your question cannot really be answered as "good" or "bad".

With regards to your other post, the key switches from BAT to OFF to MAG to connect the ignition system to either the battery or the internal magneto...the tab on your assembly chooses the headlight intensity (or at least used to when original bulbs were being produced).

NOTE: your switch is unique and a bit rare, being supplied on the very first starter-equipped cars in 1919...do not be talked out of it or swap it for a rebuilt unit. Your generator and starter may well still be the unique ones fitted to the car, too. Research them before discarding or swapping them out.

have fun, and show us more of your car...we all like pictures!

John E. Guitar · Post by **John E. Guitar** » Mon Oct 17, 2022 10:59 pm

I bought this switch at a Tractor Supply shop last time I was in Kansas. I'm planning to fit it to my car on the weekend. It's made in India. The quality looks ok.

The part number is C61098.

Post by **TRDxB2** » Tue Oct 18, 2022 12:44 am

John E. Guitar wrote: ↑
Mon Oct 17, 2022 10:59 pm
I bought this switch at a Tractor Supply shop last time I was in Kansas. I'm planning to fit it to my car on the weekend. It's made in India. The quality looks ok.

The part number is C61098.

You may have found a good replacement. The tabs holding the plunger tube are like the old repro's which were decent. Also the shortness of the plunger tube is a benefit. All depends on the quality & thickness of the metal.

Post by **Steve Jelf** » Tue Oct 18, 2022 1:06 am

...a poorly functioning starter switch may leave you out on the road with an inoperable starter.

A Model T has a thing on the front you can pull to start the engine.