Major engine problem

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Major engine problem

Post by AdminJeff » Wed Apr 10, 2019 9:04 pm

So I’m almost home today from my drive and the motor makes a bunch of grinding noises and then the engine locks up. Like won’t turn. At all.

I start pulling the motor and get to the bendix cover and find this inside. The big piece with the hole was wedged so the starter wouldn’t turn. Wtf is all that stuff? Motor turns freely with that stuff out now.

I think I need to keep going and get the motor out and clean out the bottom of the hogshead. Great. A week away from the Paso tour...

Jeff
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Re: Major engine problem

Post by DanTreace » Wed Apr 10, 2019 9:09 pm

Remains of magnet pieces, keeper and strands of copper windings from field coil.

Major work ahead :cry:
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Re: Major engine problem

Post by Scott_Conger » Wed Apr 10, 2019 9:26 pm

And keep looking! There is the flat head of a brass screw yet to be found (at the very least). I'm with Dan :( .

Drive the trouble truck on the Tour...you'll meet people you otherwise wouldn't, and will be someone's hero for the day. I did that on one of the FL winter tours one year and the most memorable time was keeping two elderly ladies hydrated with cold water on a hot day while the driver changed one of several flats that developed on the tour. Nice bunch of folks.
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Re: Major engine problem

Post by AdminJeff » Wed Apr 10, 2019 9:32 pm

DanTreace wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2019 9:09 pm
Remains of magnet pieces, keeper and strands of copper windings from field coil.

Major work ahead :cry:
I agree with the work statement. But the coil looks like the bottom of the magneto pickup. The magneto has never been used on this car as it has a fuel pump. I once took the mag pickup out to inspect it bc it was leaking. There was nothing on the bottom of it.

Funny thing is I heard something rattling around in the trans during the last tour but it didn’t last long. Sort of like it was being picked up by the flywheel and thrown around. Might have been that coil. This time it might have broken loose from its resting place and done some real damage?
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Re: Major engine problem

Post by Adam » Wed Apr 10, 2019 9:41 pm

I wonder if you maybe stepped on the starter switch when the engine was running and didn’t realize it. It looks like that sort of damage.

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Re: Major engine problem

Post by AdminJeff » Wed Apr 10, 2019 9:54 pm

Adam wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2019 9:41 pm
I wonder if you maybe stepped on the starter switch when the engine was running and didn’t realize it. It looks like that sort of damage.
I may be a relative model T novice, but I know my way around an engine and transmission after racing Porsche 911’s for 20+ years... so that scenario hasn’t happened...

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Re: Major engine problem

Post by Bob McDaniel » Wed Apr 10, 2019 9:55 pm

Small spring is from your mag post. Hate to see this and hope you are as good with tools as you are with keyboards.
Give an old car guy a barn and he won't throw anything away.

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Re: Major engine problem

Post by AdminJeff » Wed Apr 10, 2019 10:18 pm

Bob McDaniel wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2019 9:55 pm
Small spring is from your mag post. Hate to see this and hope you are as good with tools as you are with keyboards.
How do you know how good I am with keyboards?? Now I’m intrigued... and after my stroke, I’m much better with tools in my left hand than I am with the keyboard...

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Re: Major engine problem

Post by Corey Walker » Wed Apr 10, 2019 10:56 pm

I had a similar thing happen last September. It sounded like the fan was hitting the radiator then it died but the noise was coming from the mag.
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Re: Major engine problem

Post by Ruxstel24 » Wed Apr 10, 2019 11:03 pm

You were out there "Bistro hoppin" and tried to drive it like a Porsche, huh !! :?

That sucks, but at least the hogshead didn't explode. I imagine you'll see the whole picture real soon.

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Re: Major engine problem

Post by Bob McDaniel » Wed Apr 10, 2019 11:21 pm

AdminJeff wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2019 10:18 pm
Bob McDaniel wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2019 9:55 pm
Small spring is from your mag post. Hate to see this and hope you are as good with tools as you are with keyboards.
How do you know how good I am with keyboards?? Now I’m intrigued... and after my stroke, I’m much better with tools in my left hand than I am with the keyboard...

Jeff
I forgot, keyboards are sort of like rotary phones anymore. :lol:
Give an old car guy a barn and he won't throw anything away.

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Re: Major engine problem

Post by HalSched » Thu Apr 11, 2019 12:16 am

How close to me are you in California? I have parts that maybe I can help you with. (Little or maybe no $$) Without looking I know I have 3 sets of magnits, 7 mag rings (that either have no coils of would have to be rewound), a few blocks, a bunch of fly wheels etc.

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Re: Major engine problem

Post by AdminJeff » Thu Apr 11, 2019 2:53 am

halsched wrote:
Thu Apr 11, 2019 12:16 am
How close to me are you in California? I have parts that maybe I can help you with.
An hour and a half. I sincerely appreciate the offer. Let me get into the motor tomorrow and this weekend and I’ll know more. I’ll be removing everything ”mag” related when it’s apart as it will never be used on this particular car.

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Re: Major engine problem

Post by kmatt » Thu Apr 11, 2019 3:42 am

Jeff, Someone replaced the Babbitt bearing in the starter nose with a brass bushing that failed, first 2 pictures. As others have said, the spring like thing is the contact for the mag post. I see all the starter drive parts except the key, make sure it didn't drop into the engine when you pulled the starter. Next is a mag pole and some odd pieces of rectangle shaped metal. You said you car doesn't run on mag, does it have the field coil and flywheel magnets installed ? If yes then you are going to have to check the flywheel to see if it has a missing mag pole or other damage. With the starter and hogs head transmission door off,( the band adj door ), check the flywheel for damage using the hand crank to rotate the engine. If any damage is found or missing mag pole then you will need to pull the engine and take it apart and assess. If your engine doesn't have the field coil and magnets installed then check the flywheel to see if those odd pieces of rectangle shaped metal are from broken oil splashers,if yes then pull engine. If no and all else looks OK and all is cleaned out you may be alright for the time being. Make starter block-offs, add oil and hand crank to start.

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Re: Major engine problem

Post by Dan B » Thu Apr 11, 2019 10:23 am

AdminJeff wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2019 9:54 pm
Adam wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2019 9:41 pm
I wonder if you maybe stepped on the starter switch when the engine was running and didn’t realize it. It looks like that sort of damage.
I may be a relative model T novice, but I know my way around an engine and transmission after racing Porsche 911’s for 20+ years... so that scenario hasn’t happened...

Jeff
We all can assume you wouldn’t do it on purpose, so it has nothing to do with your experience level. It’s easily done if you accidentally depress the button with your heel while driving.
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Re: Major engine problem

Post by Scott_Conger » Thu Apr 11, 2019 10:31 am

Kevin

from the parts shown, there are magnets on the flywheel, and the flywheel assembly is damaged. It will be coming off...there's no way around it.
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Re: Major engine problem

Post by AdminJeff » Thu Apr 11, 2019 10:41 am

kmatt wrote:
Thu Apr 11, 2019 3:42 am
Jeff, Someone replaced the Babbitt bearing in the starter nose with a brass bushing that failed, first 2 pictures. As others have said, the spring like thing is the contact for the mag post. I see all the starter drive parts except the key, make sure it didn't drop into the engine when you pulled the starter.
That damage to the bearing was done by the flying bits. But “starter drive parts”....how would they make it past the sealed starter nose?
.
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.
And I’m convinced that the rouge mag pole is the ultimate culprit here. As I previously stated it’s been missing for a looong time. When I first got the car it was gone and leaked from the mag post. I heard it inside the engine once before but it went away. Andit finallly shows up now? And it’s mangled, so it likely started a chain reaction. To be continued...

It’s a mystery wrapped in a conundrum surrounded by an enigma.

This just in From Steve Tomaso:
“ I would venture to guess one or more of the brass magnet screws broke first and released the magnet clamp/s - that intact flat steel piece w/hole is a magnet clamp - there are/was 16 of them ! I'm also going to "guess" that the field coil bobbins are unwound like spaghetti in there ! ”

Now this finally makes sense! Motor comes out today.
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Re: Major engine problem

Post by Norman Kling » Thu Apr 11, 2019 11:25 am

You don't need to inspect anything else until you get the engine out of the car. Those parts are from the magneto and a few from the starter which probably got damaged when the magneto parts came off. You will need to pull the engine and remove the crankcase. Then you will be able to find all the loose parts. You are very fortunate that no magnets broke through the hogs head.
While it's out would be a good time to go through the engine and check anything else which might need to be replaced or repaired. And also check the transmission and re-line the bands.
You will need to repair or replace all the starter parts involved in this problem. And also check the starter ring on the flywheel for chipped or worn teeth and replace if needed.
Whether or not you replace the magneto is up to you, but if there is any possibility that you might need a magneto or someone in the future might want one, now would be the time to do so.
Sorry about the problems. Will you be attending Bakersfield?
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Re: Major engine problem

Post by Erik Barrett » Thu Apr 11, 2019 4:40 pm

That’s a bummer dude. Your engine is coming out. Sloe Bob and I will expect to hear from you.

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Re: Major engine problem

Post by AdminJeff » Thu Apr 11, 2019 8:09 pm

Erik Barrett wrote:
Thu Apr 11, 2019 4:40 pm
That’s a bummer dude. Your engine is coming out. Sloe Bob and I will expect to hear from you.
Step 1 complete.more soon.
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Re: Major engine problem

Post by Ruxstel24 » Thu Apr 11, 2019 8:15 pm

Excellent !!
Well on your way. I hope you can remove the magnets and such and go. With no other major damage. Fingers crossed... ;)

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Re: Major engine problem

Post by AdminJeff » Thu Apr 11, 2019 8:57 pm

Mystery solved. Time for a new transmission...

Ok this sucks...
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These bands don’t look anything like cotton to me... which is what I was told when I bought the car. Kevlar?
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Re: Major engine problem

Post by Dallas Landers » Thu Apr 11, 2019 9:04 pm

Ouch!
Looks like wood bands.

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Re: Major engine problem

Post by Henry K. Lee » Thu Apr 11, 2019 9:09 pm

Jeff,

You have done so much for Us on this Website, Forum, Kicking some Cyber Fairy's butt, If you need a rebuilt starter, bendix or other loose transmission parts, contact me please. Less than half price.

All the Best,

Hank

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Re: Major engine problem

Post by JP_noonan » Thu Apr 11, 2019 10:17 pm

Wow, sorry for your troubles Jeff. :( Judging by your pictures, it looks like your low drum let go and then proceeded to take out a magnet keeper along the way.
Experience is a wonderful thing. It enables you to recognize a mistake when you make it again.

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Re: Major engine problem

Post by critterpainter » Thu Apr 11, 2019 10:41 pm

Perhaps a road trip to Bakersfield tomorrow? With a shopping lis?
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Re: Major engine problem

Post by AdminJeff » Thu Apr 11, 2019 11:02 pm

Yeah I’m pretty depressed right now. This car is normally my peaceful place. I drive it at least a couple hours a day to destress my brain- something that is mandatory for me right now. I’ve put over 5,000 miles on it in 6 months. Today is my 2 year anniversary of having a massive stroke. I’ve come back from the dead and survived. I don’t complain. I just get to work. But this is a little too much right now. Previous Jeff 1.0 would be all over this. 4am rebuilds of Porsche engines and transmissions. Jeff 2.0 (post stroke) just isn’t there. Not sure what I’m going to do at this point.

I had a looong talk with Robert Weitzel and Steve Tomaso tonight. My rocks. They keep me grounded. It is just a hobby, right? Lately It’s become much more for me though. It’s why I spend so much time on keeping the forums up and running. This hobby connects me to a time long gone. A simpler time when you could visit a friend and get drunk on a porch without cellphones or Russian hackers interrupting your day.

You all need this as well. It keeps us sane in a world of insanity.

Anyway, lots to think about as I “rebuild”. Most of you have all been here. If you haven’t yet, just give it time, you’ll get here.

WANTED: late style transmission, rebuilt preferred. I just don’t have the energy to rebuild this one right now. Mabe this winter. I have people to meet, places to go, people to get drunk with on porches without cellphones Or Chinese hackers....or were they Russians??

At least I have an amazing sunset on my deck tonight. I am so glad to be alive.

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Re: Major engine problem

Post by AdminJeff » Thu Apr 11, 2019 11:03 pm

critterpainter wrote:
Thu Apr 11, 2019 10:41 pm
Perhaps a road trip to Bakersfield tomorrow? With a shopping lis?
Yeah. Look for a transmission for me!!
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Re: Major engine problem

Post by AdminJeff » Thu Apr 11, 2019 11:05 pm

Henry K. Lee wrote:
Thu Apr 11, 2019 9:09 pm
Jeff,

You have done so much for Us on this Website, Forum, Kicking some Cyber Fairy's butt, If you need a rebuilt starter, bendix or other loose transmission parts, contact me please. Less than half price.

All the Best,

Hank
It’s my sincere pleasure. And I may take you up on that. The Bendix didn’t fare too well thru all of this mayhem.
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Re: Major engine problem

Post by Allan » Fri Apr 12, 2019 5:22 am

Jeff, that is a real bummer! If it's any consolation, I believe the damage started with the broken drum, not the mag contact spring which you sort of ignored. Bits of drum certainly could initiate the chain reaction that led to this much damage. Hard to see the magnet keeper leading to a broken drum, but the busted drum pieces certainly could be thrown around enough to take out the keeper. All a bit academic really. Just let those able to help be of service, and you'll be right again.

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Re: Major engine problem

Post by Mark Osterman » Fri Apr 12, 2019 6:24 am

Jeff, I’m so sorry this happened. I drive my T nearly every day for the very same theraputic reasons. I hope you can get a couple of T guys to come over like a Amish barn rasing and get it fixed up as soon as possible to get you up and going again.

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Re: Major engine problem

Post by Oldav8tor » Fri Apr 12, 2019 9:47 am

Ouch! I feel your pain. I think Jeff 2.0 has the right attitude and in truth, there is nothing that can't be fixed, just the inconvenience and time away from your therapy on wheels. I second what others have said in that you have done so much for the model T community by lending your technical skills to keep the forum alive.... this too will pass and you'll be back on the road in no time.
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Re: Major engine problem

Post by twrenn » Fri Apr 12, 2019 9:48 am

Adam wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2019 9:41 pm
I wonder if you maybe stepped on the starter switch when the engine was running and didn’t realize it. It looks like that sort of damage.
Experience or not, Adam has a good point. I consider myself still a bit of a novice after only having a T for 7 years now, and back when I did have an electric starter I would occasionally "hit" the starter button with my heel for whatever reason. Plain stupidity maybe! But it does happen, that dumb button is in the wrong location in my opinion.


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Re: Major engine problem

Post by Scott_Conger » Fri Apr 12, 2019 10:10 am

With all due respect, the starter did not cause this damage.
I heard it inside the engine once before but it went away
some time back was the initial failure and it cascaded into this. Model T's sometimes do this, and the faster you're going when it does, usually the worse the results. This is a minor to medium blow up. Certainly not the worst by far as an observer, but always a disaster to the owner.

I bought a sad little barn find roadster some years back and it started and ran great...in fact it had the quietest transmission you'd ever hear...but no magneto. 2400 bouncing miles to WY on a trailer and when we got here, it was locked up. Taking it apart, I found a blown up magnet assembly. I cannot imagine where the parts secreted themselves for my few successful drives, but the merciless pounding it got on the trailer trip here loosened all the debris until it all went to the bottom and locked things up. Odd things happen.

This is a cautionary tail to all new T owners to STOP driving if a loud crack or bang comes from the transmission. That is usually a keeper coming off a magnet and it only gets worse.

I feel for you friend.
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Re: Major engine problem

Post by AdminJeff » Fri Apr 12, 2019 11:04 am

Well, I hear stories from Bakersfield that Eric Barrett has a late model transmission set aside for me that might just work out. The plan is to load the motor into the Ford Explorer and head to Auburn early Sunday to find out. I’m just not good enough yet with my left arm/hand to wrestle this hunk of 100 year old metal and remove the pan and trans as it swings from a spark plug hole on a cherry picker. I really do need to fabricate an engine stand for future “emergencies”.

Talk about cutting it close... If it’s meant to be then I’ll make the tour in Paso Robles with a T in tow, if not then I’ll drive the trouble truck! Either way it’ll be good to escape for a couple weeks and hang out with some cool people!

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Re: Major engine problem

Post by Scott_Conger » Fri Apr 12, 2019 11:09 am

Jeff

sounds like some good luck headed your way, but in any event a positive attitude should carry the day. Best wishes for an enjoyable tour.
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Re: Major engine problem

Post by AdminJeff » Fri Apr 12, 2019 11:16 am

Mark Osterman wrote:
Fri Apr 12, 2019 6:24 am
Jeff, I’m so sorry this happened. I drive my T nearly every day for the very same theraputic reasons. I hope you can get a couple of T guys to come over like a Amish barn rasing and get it fixed up as soon as possible to get you up and going again.
Right on Mark. It really is amazing what a drive in the T in the afternoon does for the soul and how it calms my brain. The people you meet along the way, the kids (and parents) who wave endlessly, the sun on your face, the countless rattles that come and go. The horn honking from passers by still gets me now and then. Folks can’t seem to help themselves to try and get your attention when they see a T, but it alway causes me to do a double-take.

The Amish barn-raise may happen Sunday. Fingers crossed.
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Re: Major engine problem

Post by modeltspeedster » Fri Apr 12, 2019 11:31 am

Jeff,
It just happens that I am currently dealing with a similar situation, exception being nothing as catastrophic yet. I decided to change the break in oil on my '24 roadster project and found a couple of brass bits in the drain plug. I'll bet you can guess where they belong.
The engine has been running splendidly but is about to be removed and inspected. I'm hoping to find less damage than you have encountered, but you never know what lurks inside a Model T engine until you break it down!
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brass mag screw.jpg


Allan
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Re: Major engine problem

Post by Allan » Fri Apr 12, 2019 6:41 pm

Randy, before you tear into it, I suggest you investigate further. Those bits may well have been lying under the plate in the bottom of the pan for ages. With luck, they may have been replaced long ago but the bits never retrieved. If all the keepers are still in place, the screws should have been replaced. Hard to believe that you could lose a screw head, let a keeper loose and not have any idea that it had happened until you dropped the oil.

Best of luck, Allan from down under.

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modeltspeedster
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Re: Major engine problem

Post by modeltspeedster » Sat Apr 13, 2019 8:16 am

Alan,
Thank you for the heads up! Before I go to extremes, I will do some further investigations. The engine is a complete unknown to me. This car sat in the back of an auto body repair shop for more than 30 years, lacking only the body to be reassembled. I will post the outcome later.
RB

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