Shackle Dilema

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Oldav8tor
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Shackle Dilema

Post by Oldav8tor » Thu Apr 11, 2019 7:57 pm

Wednesday I paid a visit to Denny Newman here in Michigan and had the front axle rehabilitated. It was straightened, top bushings and one thread insert in added with a Steven's tool, along with new brass bushings in the spindles. We also decided to replace the spring and spring perch bushings and the shackles themselves. The shackles showed dimensional wear and were somewhat oval in shape.

I was able to order everything I needed except the shackles ---- nobody seems to have them, at least the affordable version I was looking for. Langs reported theirs were on backorder from May 2018!

The shackles I need are the type that have an oiler on the end of the bolt - not the type where the oiler is on the perch.

If anyone has some shackles that are surplus to your needs, please email me. I especially need the shackles for the front end but all of them are worn.
The ones on there now look like those pictured below, with brass oilers installed on the head of the bolt. HELP!
shackle.jpg
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1917 Touring
1946 Aeronca Champ
1952 Willys M38a1 Jeep
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Erik Johnson
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Re: Shackle Dilema

Post by Erik Johnson » Thu Apr 11, 2019 9:56 pm

Although figure eight-shackles with oilers are correct for an early 1917 Ford, unless you going for a prize, I would get some NOS "L" shackles and drill the spring and perches for flip-top oilers if they aren't already drilled.

Or

Some folks take the original shackles, build them up and then turn them down on a lathe. I'm no expert so I don't know if this practice is advisable.

On a side note:

- My unrestored May 1917 roadster has figure eight shackles all around - springs are not drilled but the front perches are drilled

- The June 1917 "Rip Van Winkle" for touring has L shackles on front axle and figure eights on the rear axle

- My dad's July 1917 touring which he bought unrestored from the original owner in 1949 had L shackles all around and drilled perches and springs.

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RajoRacer
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Re: Shackle Dilema

Post by RajoRacer » Thu Apr 11, 2019 10:20 pm

I might have some "serviceable" ones - be a couple days before I can go find them.

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Steve Jelf
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Re: Shackle Dilema

Post by Steve Jelf » Fri Apr 12, 2019 12:16 am

IMG_0273 copy.JPG
I had some that were pretty bad.


So I did as Erik says.
IMG_0143.JPG
IMG_0257 copy.JPG
IMG_0224 copy.JPG
I thought they turned out pretty well. The holes were wallowed out, so I had to fill those and redrill them, and drill new oil holes.
The inevitable often happens.
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Re: Shackle Dilema

Post by Allan » Fri Apr 12, 2019 12:26 am

Steve, you can use the same tooling you previously used on L type shackles.

Allan from down under.

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Re: Shackle Dilema

Post by Darren J Wallace » Sat Apr 13, 2019 4:00 pm

Hi There,
PM sent.
Cheers,
Darren J Wallace
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Oldav8tor
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Re: Shackle Dilema

Post by Oldav8tor » Sat Apr 13, 2019 8:03 pm

Because of time restraints I bit the bullet and ordered some of the authentic ($$) reproductions from Chaffins. At some point in the future I'll try to rehabilitate my old ones or get them to someone who can. thanks!
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Re: Shackle Dilema

Post by Dropacent » Sat Apr 13, 2019 8:12 pm

Thanks for biting the bullet, Tim. That is money well spent. Do your fellow motorists a favor and throw the old ones away. If ever the term “ penny wise and pound foolish” applies, it would be to the how-to displayed above. Things can go south very quickly when a suspension part breaks, and anything close to that bad belongs in a trash bin. IMHO !


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Re: Shackle Dilema

Post by Erik Johnson » Sat Apr 13, 2019 8:28 pm

The original, factory produced figure-eight shackles were forged. And, Ford Motor Company was known for its metallurgy.

It is my understanding that the reproduction figure-eight shackles are cast, not forged. Should that be a concern?

My unrestored '17 roadster has its original figure eight shackles on all four corners. Over the years as I've watched the prices get higher and higher, I've considered buying a reproduction set just to have on the shelf for when I decide to do a complete mechanical but the fact that they are cast bothers me.

I'm not an engineer, but I assume that forged steel is preferable to cast steel for such an application. Perhaps it doesn't matter.


Dropacent
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Re: Shackle Dilema

Post by Dropacent » Sat Apr 13, 2019 9:55 pm

That Is interesting, Eric. You know what they say about assumptions, but if they are cast, my guess is they are lost wax steel castings. There are several people here that frequent the forum with a deep manufacturing background, and i would love to hear their opinion.
We are lucky around here that these type original parts in good usable shape are not at all hard to find. I just can’t wrap my head around rebuilding common parts to that extent when just a couple of calls can take care of things.


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Re: Shackle Dilema

Post by Allan » Sun Apr 14, 2019 12:46 am

Tim, not all the shackles are reproduced. Some of those which are, are of dubious quality. Our Canadian sourced cars had the forged L shaped shackles with no oilers for longer than US production. In an authentic restoration we are left with rebuilding originals. I mig weld mine, and have a special tool to hold the welded piece for machining.
I did buy new Chaffins shackles for my 1917 restoration. The amount of work needed to rebuild originals outweighs the cost of quality reproductions in this case. I found that out when rebuilding originals for my 1915 speedster.

Allan from down under.

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Re: Shackle Dilema

Post by Doug Keppler » Sun Apr 14, 2019 6:35 am

I have a shackle question, my original front spring shackles were in good shape so I reinstalled them with new flip top oilers everything is tight with no play but when I lowered the car to the ground the oiler in the spring got crushed against the perch. Are these repro oilers the wrong size, cant figure out what to do. Also is it normal that you would have to jack the car up from the chassis to access the spring oiler?
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Re: Shackle Dilema

Post by Doug Keppler » Sun Apr 14, 2019 9:19 am

20190414_091514.jpg
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Re: Shackle Dilema

Post by Steve Jelf » Sun Apr 14, 2019 9:31 am

Things can go south very quickly when a suspension part breaks, and anything close to that bad belongs in a trash bin.

Does that mean my built-up shackles are likely to fail?
The inevitable often happens.
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Re: Shackle Dilema

Post by Adam » Sun Apr 14, 2019 10:36 am

Steve; If you were a certified welder and you had the shackles annealed & heat treated, and maybe x-rayed, then you could be reasonably sure they are safe to use...

Uneven heating and cooling, hard spots, embrittlement, base material versus filler difference, potential voids, bubbles, and cold-shuts in the weld, final material hardness, hardness differences in various areas of the part... Any of these situations could cause a sudden, unexpected part failure.

If anyone is running with “welded-up” shackles, at the very least, PLEASE keep a very close eye on them and inspect them very closely and very frequently!


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Re: Shackle Dilema

Post by Scott_Conger » Sun Apr 14, 2019 10:52 am

I find it very difficult to ever disagree with Adam. In this instance I will simply say that while I share his views on welding, I don't share the dire worry that he is expressing. If the shackle was BROKEN, I'd be even MORE worried, but this is a case where material was built up. The advice I'd give to someone doing similar is to take it to someone who would flame spray new material on the part rather than weld.

Myself, I would not go to the effort in either case...I'd replace.

Now, if I wanted to worry, I'd put on reproduction shackles that are knurled and pressed together. Photos by Richard Eagle 11/15/13:
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Re: Shackle Dilema

Post by Steve Jelf » Sun Apr 14, 2019 10:52 am

I'm not certified and I didn't have them heat treated or x-rayed, so I'll check them often. While figure eight shackles are not terribly rare, NOS or very good ones seem to be. New ones are $60 each. My thought about these was similar to Scott's. The shafts on these shackles were mostly present and unbroken, and the built-up material is in effect a permanent shim to fill the space. I would never try to weld up a broken shackle, but I expect the build-up will be OK. In any case, I'll watch to see if they wear any faster than I'd expect a new one to go.
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Re: Shackle Dilema

Post by d stroud » Mon Apr 15, 2019 2:49 am

Doug, as far as I know, about the only thing you can do about those oilers is leave them out. My mostly original '25 coupe has one oiler in the spring, the other one gone. The original oiler is about half as tall as the repro's and will just barely open enough to get any oil in it. I just squirt some oil in the hole on the other end. I don't know of anyone that makes the correct ones. Even if you found some originals in a spring or something, I don't know how you could remove one without destroying it. I guess looking for some NOS ones would be the only way to go. Dave
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Re: Shackle Dilema

Post by Original Smith » Mon Apr 15, 2019 12:40 pm

If your shackles are badly worn, I would have them welded up, and turned to the proper size. I think Ken Kopsky does this. I would stay away from cast reproductions. That gives me the shakes just thinking about it!

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Re: Shackle Dilema

Post by Doug Keppler » Mon Apr 15, 2019 7:13 pm

Thanks Dave, I think I'll find a small black rubber plug to put in the spring hole to keep the dirt out, it will blend right in so you wont see it then just pop it out and squirt some oil in
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Re: Shackle Dilema

Post by d stroud » Tue Apr 16, 2019 5:32 am

Good idea Doug! Dave
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